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Can you fastroll vs custodian wardens? While a character is leading the unit you have -1 on the wound roll if S is above T value. But after you kill the last warden the character is not leading the unit.

Thoughts?

Well, you'd have to batch roll in sets small enough that you don't clear the breakpoint, ie in threes, then twos, then singly until the last warden is dead, then resolve the rest of the attacks onto the character.

Yeo, usual way to speed up when it matters after a certain point.

Note that this is different from Leader abilities that say, "...while this model is leading a unit...". Those rules continue to apply until the attacking unit has finished making its attacks.

You resolve all the attacks against the Bodyguard unit.

From Leader Ability wrote:While a Bodyguard unit contains a Leader, it is known as an Attached unit and, with the exception of rules that are triggered when units are destroyed (pg 12), it is treated as a single unit for all rules purposes. Each time an attack targets an Attached unit, until the attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks, you must use the Toughness characteristic of the Bodyguard models in that unit, even if a Leader in that unit has a different Toughness characteristic. Each time an attack sucessfully wounds an Attached unit, that attack cannot be allocated to a Character model in that unit, even if that Character model has lost one or more wounds or has already had attacks allocated to it this phase. As soon as the last Bodyguard model in an Attached unit has been destroyed, any attacks made against that unit that have yet to be allocated can then be allocated to Character models in that unit.

Thank you. How ever that rule you quoted only cares about the thoughness characteristic: Each time an attack targets an Attached unit, until the attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks, you must use the Toughness characteristic of the Bodyguard models in that unit, even if a Leader in that unit has a different Toughness characteristic.

Wardens do not have hier thoughness. They have a rule that only works while a character is leading them. That rule disappears once the last warden is dead.

I fully expect this to be FAQed so you can fast roll. But I think you raw can not fast roll them now.

Here is the rule.

 Niiai wrote:
Thank you. How ever that rule you quoted only cares about the thoughness characteristic: Each time an attack targets an Attached unit, until the attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks, you must use the Toughness characteristic of the Bodyguard models in that unit, even if a Leader in that unit has a different Toughness characteristic.

Wardens do not have hier thoughness. They have a rule that only works while a character is leading them. That rule disappears once the last warden is dead.

I fully expect this to be FAQed so you can fast roll. But I think you raw can not fast roll them now.

I think you can fast roll them. The rule is checked when 'each time an attack targets an Attached unit'. So you check before you make any rolls.

But fast rolling is rolling all dice - but from the games perspective it is essential ly 1 and 1. So when the last warden die you continue rolling but wound more easily? Is that RAW?

All target allocation is done before single dice is rolled thougq

Yes. And then you check thoughness. However, once you kill the last warden you wound easier. That is because the wound rolls are not affected by the rule.

Is this RAW?

 Niiai wrote:
Yes. And then you check thoughness. However, once you kill the last warden you wound easier. That is because the wound rolls are not affected by the rule.

Is this RAW?

You allocate the attack AFTER the wound roll.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Yes. And then you check thoughness. However, once you kill the last warden you wound easier. That is because the wound rolls are not affected by the rule.

Is this RAW?

You allocate the attack AFTER the wound roll.

yes, you allocate after, but rules wise, your fully resolving each attack sequence one at a time, then starting the next one ("The rules for making attacks have been
written assuming you will resolve them one at a time." 10e core, page 24 of the download).

Once the last warden dies, their is a change in conditions (specifically, the character doesn't have the "-1 to wound vs higher str" ability). Ergo, you must resolve the wound rolls in decreasing batches, until the last warden is dead, then resolve the remainder against the character.

fast rolling is a nicety to speed things up, but in any situation where race conditions exist (ie the order of resolution changes the outcome) you need to revert to single or batch rolling.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Yes. And then you check thoughness. However, once you kill the last warden you wound easier. That is because the wound rolls are not affected by the rule.

Is this RAW?

You allocate the attack AFTER the wound roll.

yes, you allocate after, but rules wise, your fully resolving each attack sequence one at a time, then starting the next one ("The rules for making attacks have been
written assuming you will resolve them one at a time." 10e core, page 24 of the download).

Once the last warden dies, their is a change in conditions (specifically, the character doesn't have the "-1 to wound vs higher str" ability). Ergo, you must resolve the wound rolls in decreasing batches, until the last warden is dead, then resolve the remainder against the character.

fast rolling is a nicety to speed things up, but in any situation where race conditions exist (ie the order of resolution changes the outcome) you need to revert to single or batch rolling.

Oops, brain fart on the timing.

Yeah, this is one of those cases where fast rolling isn't the best idea.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Yes. And then you check thoughness. However, once you kill the last warden you wound easier. That is because the wound rolls are not affected by the rule.

Is this RAW?

You allocate the attack AFTER the wound roll.

yes, you allocate after, but rules wise, your fully resolving each attack sequence one at a time, then starting the next one ("The rules for making attacks have been
written assuming you will resolve them one at a time." 10e core, page 24 of the download).

Once the last warden dies, their is a change in conditions (specifically, the character doesn't have the "-1 to wound vs higher str" ability). Ergo, you must resolve the wound rolls in decreasing batches, until the last warden is dead, then resolve the remainder against the character.

fast rolling is a nicety to speed things up, but in any situation where race conditions exist (ie the order of resolution changes the outcome) you need to revert to single or batch rolling.

When you fight with a unit you have different steps:
1. Pile in
2. Make Melee Attacks
2.1 Select Weapon
2.2 Select Targets
2.3 Make Attacks
3. Consolidate

For a whole unit you choose which weapons you use and then which targets you attack. After that you make the real attacks in 2.3 (which refers back to page 21-23, which refers to page 24). So only step 2.3 you can resolve one at a time.

And the rule we are discussing checks in step 2.2 Select Targets. You don't go back to step 2.2 after you're in step 2.3 for a unit.

Well the rules for fast rolling states that all the attacks mist be affected by the same abillaty. And this changes mid fighting so fast rolling is not possible I assume.

I wish the faq this. Or I can take minimum squads of warden in an event with a chess clock.

 Niiai wrote:
Well the rules for fast rolling states that all the attacks mist be affected by the same abillaty. And this changes mid fighting so fast rolling is not possible I assume.

I wish the faq this. Or I can take minimum squads of warden in an event with a chess clock.

It doesn't change mid fighting. It is locked in in step 2.2 in the fight phase and step 2 in the shooting phase when the unit is targeted.

This is step 2 if fighting. Nothing is 'locked in'. And while it is very rare, this is one of the few times the 'to wound roll' changes. Not because of thougnes characteristic (witch the game checks once.) But becayse the rule that modefiers the wound roll changes.

 Niiai wrote:
This is step 2 if fighting. Nothing is 'locked in'. And while it is very rare, this is one of the few times the 'to wound roll' changes. Not because of thougnes characteristic (witch the game checks once.) But becayse the rule that modefiers the wound roll changes.

That is step 2 in Making Attacks. I'm talking about step 2 of the Shooting Phase on page 19 and step 2.2 of the Fight Phase on page 33.

The rule is in question is: While a Character is leading this unit, each time an attack targets this unit, if the Strength characteristic of that attack is greater than the Toughness characteristic of this unit, subtract 1 fom the Wound roll.

When you attack with an unit you must first select targets for all attacks/weapons in the unit. That's is when the rule is triggered for all attacks that target the Wardens unit. After the selections you can roll the attacks/wound/saves, etc. one at a time. Or fast roll them, because the rule was already triggered when the unit was targeted. So it doesn't change when the Wardens die. It doesn't trigger when you make the Wound rolls. It only possibly affects the Wound rolls.