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Rapid Ingress

WHEN: End of your opponent’s Movement phase.
TARGET: One unit from your army that is in Reserves.
EFFECT: Your unit can arrive on the battlefield
as if it were the Reinforcements step of your
Movement phase.
RESTRICTIONS: You cannot use this Stratagem to
enable a unit to arrive on the battlefield during a
battle round it would not normally be able to do so in.

Meteoric Descent

When this unit is set up on the battlefield
using the Deep Strike ability, it can perform a meteoric
descent. If it does, this unit can be set up anywhere on the
battlefield that is more than 3" horizontally away from all
enemy units, but until the end of the turn, it is not eligible to
declare a charge.

If I use Rapid Ingress on a unit with Meteoric Descent would I be able to set it up more then 3" horizontally away from all
enemy units like in the ability?

Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge or fight outside of the normal turn sequence. For example, the Fire Overwatch Stratagem enables a unit to shoot in the opponent’s turn as if it were your Shooting phase. When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase.

Example: In your opponent’s Movement phase, you use the Fire Overwatch Stratagem to enable a Whirlwind from your army to shoot as if it were your Shooting phase. The Whirlwind has the Pinning Bombardment ability, which is used ‘In your Shooting phase, after this model has shot’. Because Fire Overwatch is an out-of-phase rule, it only allows the Whirlwind to perform the specified action (in this case, shooting as if it were your Shooting phase) and does not trigger any other rules that would normally be used in your Shooting phase. This means the Whirlwind’s Pinning Bombardment ability has no effect while resolving these attacks, and you could not use any other Stratagems that are used in your Shooting phase to affect those attacks.

Underlining added. You're doing something as if it were your movement phase, you don't get to use the triggered ability.

Problem with that is you then can't use Deep Strike itself either - as its a different rule. But if you can use Deep Strike, you can use Meteoric Descent as it modifies Deep Strike.

 solkan wrote:

Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge or fight outside of the normal turn sequence. For example, the Fire Overwatch Stratagem enables a unit to shoot in the opponent’s turn as if it were your Shooting phase. When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase.

Example: In your opponent’s Movement phase, you use the Fire Overwatch Stratagem to enable a Whirlwind from your army to shoot as if it were your Shooting phase. The Whirlwind has the Pinning Bombardment ability, which is used ‘In your Shooting phase, after this model has shot’. Because Fire Overwatch is an out-of-phase rule, it only allows the Whirlwind to perform the specified action (in this case, shooting as if it were your Shooting phase) and does not trigger any other rules that would normally be used in your Shooting phase. This means the Whirlwind’s Pinning Bombardment ability has no effect while resolving these attacks, and you could not use any other Stratagems that are used in your Shooting phase to affect those attacks.

Underlining added. You're doing something as if it were your movement phase, you don't get to use the triggered ability.

Ok but when it says "...to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase." that means that you still perform the action and any rules that modify that action still apply but any rules that are triggered because of the activation of that action are not activated as it is out-of-phase.

For example if I shoot overwatch out of phase with a flamer the action still uses the torrent special rule as it modifies the action of shooting but if the unit had a rule that was activated because I shot at a unit like giving the shot at unit a minus two to movement it would not activate as it is out of phase.

Meteoric Descent is not activated during the Reinforcements step of the movement phase nor is it activated because a unit arrives during the reinforcements step of the movement phase it modifies the action of deep striking.

Breton wrote:
Problem with that is you then can't use Deep Strike itself either - as its a different rule. But if you can use Deep Strike, you can use Meteoric Descent as it modifies Deep Strike.

Rapid Ingress allows you set up a unit from reserves "as if it were the Reinforcements step of your Movement phase."
Deep strike allows you to place a unit into reserves and to set it up in the reinforcements step of your movement phase so you can use the stratagem on a unit in deep strike.

How does this interact with the trygon? I assumed it worked. It is the only use of the trygon.

I was about to say:

Neither Meteoric Descent nor Subterranean Tunneling state they are used during a phase. Therefore they can be utilized when setting up a unit using Rapid Ingress.

You can decide on the virtue of setting up your unit within easy charge range of your opponent.

Then I looked up Deep Strike and it says:

During the Declare Battle Formations step, if every model in a unit has this ability, you can set it up in Reserves instead of setting it up on the battlefield. If you do, in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" horizontally away from all enemy models.

Thanks, GW

It would work fine if they had said "If you do, when the unit is deployed from Reserves...", but now it appears you can't deep strike with Rapid Ingress because Deep Stake is a Reinforcement Step of the Movement phase ability.

Is this a RAW RAI problem? I am confused on both the RAW and RAI here.

Your overthinking that. the effect is in Reinforcement step but the trigger is "During the Declare Battle Formations step" which you have already used when you put the unit into deepstrike.

Rapid ingress
TARGET: One unit from your army that is in Reserves.
EFFECT: Your unit can arrive on the battlefield
as if it were the Reinforcements step of your
Movement phase.

The effect of the trigger that activated in the declare battle formations step applies so you can deepstrike as normal

Metoric descent however is a trigger that occurs "When this unit is set up on the battlefield" so this wouldn't trigger as it's out of phase.

So that's a yes on the deep strike?

Deep strike yes

Metoric descent no

The trygons supteranial tunnels?

That works as you expect it should
while the outcome would be the same if used normally the wording is different and it creates a difference

Meteoric decent is an optional trigger that triggers off the unit deepstrikeing so doesn't apply because you don't get a trigger while rapid ingressing

Supteranial tunnels is a static ability that modifys how the unit deepstrikes so you would get that

"Each time the model is set up on the battlefield using deepstrike, it can be set up anywhere...," static ability no trigger

Vs

"When this unit is set up on the battlefield
using the Deep Strike ability, it can perform a meteoric descent. IF IT DOES..." trigger

I'm not following you, U02dah4. If you can use Deep Strike when using Rapid Ingress, why would Meteoric Descent not work? Meteoric Descent isn't depended upon a phase, just setup via Deep Strike. Your parsing of the rules of Meteoric Descent and Subterranean Tunneling seems to be making a difference where none exist.

 Niiai wrote:
Is this a RAW RAI problem? I am confused on both the RAW and RAI here.

Its a both: Meteoric isn't an out of phase rule as it has no phase. The rule prohibiting daisy chaining out of phase rules doesn't actually specify out of phase rules but "rules that normally trigger..."

RAW is poorly written, RAI is inconsistently neutral.

Meteoric doesn't need to be.

OUT-OF-PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge or fight outside of the normal turn sequence. For example, the Fire Overwatch Stratagem enables a unit to shoot in the opponent’s turn as if it were your Shooting phase. When using out-of-phase rules to
perform an action as if it were one of your phases, "YOU CANNOT USE ANY OTHER RULES THAT ARE NORMALLY TRIGGERED IN THAT PHASE"

Rapid ingress is the out of phase rule. Meteoric does not need to be an out of phase rule for the out of phase rules - rule to stop it functioning. meteoric just wont apply if it is a rule that normally triggers in the Reinforcement step.

As per its wording "When this unit is set up on the battlefield using the Deep Strike ability, it can perform a meteoric descent. IF IT DOES..."

Deep Strike normally occurs in the Reinforcements step and it is clearly a trigger as it enables you to take an action so you cannot use the rule.

Supteranial tunnels by contrast

Each time the model is set up on the battlefield using deepstrike, it can be set up anywhere...," while this does indeed also normally effect during the reinforcements step it is a static ability, it is not a trigger that enables you to take an action. Therefore the out of phase rules last sentence does not apply to it.

Which creates the difference

Yes GW's wording is bad and I assume it's not the intention but we can't know for sure so as always RAW trumps RAI.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I note trigger itself is slightly ambiguous

But the designers commentary says

When: If a rule states that it takes place when a certain trigger occurs, unless otherwise stated, that rule takes effect before any others.

Meteoric is a when

Subteranian tunnels is not

To make it more complex the last line only of tunnels is a when but. It effects a subsequent phase and its ambiguous whether this trigger would apply at all. As it technically triggers during the phase so shouldnt apply at all or if it would still apply to a subsequent phase as the criteria were met. My guess is that RAI it should but who knows

Meteoric Descent doesn't have a phase requirement, its trigger is using Deep Strike.

So I say it can work with Rapid Ingress.

It doesn't have to have a phase requirement that doesn't effect anything its not a requirement of the out of phase rules rule

Only that it it normally triggers during the reinforcements step

So Does Deep Strike normally activate in the Reinforcements step?

If yes then you can't meteoric

That's your opinion, I disagree.

Also I disagree on RAW trumping RAI, after all we did use Assault Weapons during 8th.

Edit: Also "Each time" is pretty much synonym with "When" and GW uses them interchangeably.

FFS use some common sense.

 Tyran wrote:
Meteoric Descent doesn't have a phase requirement, its trigger is using Deep Strike.

So I say it can work with Rapid Ingress.

I think you have the phase requirement check backwards.

The out-of-phase thing is Deep Strike, so you can’t do other things that Deep Strike would normally allow.

Not saying I love this ruling from GW as it could create Edge Caseapalooza, but it does seem to track that Deep Strike can only proc Meteoric Descent if used on normal turn sequence not in a reaction in opponent’s turn.

Time out: what is "proc"? From its use, it seems to be similar to "trigger", but it also appears to be short for something and by the Changer I can't for the life of me figure out what.

@Tyran RAW trumping RAI is a basic of all rules arguments and yes there are a couple of exceptions when the RAW literally doesn't work like assault weapons in 8th that's not here RAW works you just don't like it. RAI arguments are largely pointless because you can say it's meant a particular way and I can say it's not with equal validity. Where as RAW arguments we can all agree what's written.

Secondly it's not my opinion it's RAW that's the beauty of a RAW argument opinion has nothing to do with it.

Thirdly writting I disagree and having no evidence to support your position is a waste of text and makes it harder for people who want to find the right answer (one actually based on rules not your imagination)

Finally following the written rules is common sense on a rules forum I don't know what you expect.

@ johnnyhell absolutely I agree it's terrible rules writting and creates a lot of edge cases and I don't like it either but sadly GW make bad rules all the time

Your entire definition of static ability vs triggered ability is a "each time" vs "when". Please tell me what is so RAW about that.

Because a very obvious RAI argument here is that both tunnels and meteoric are pretty much the same rule and should have the same limitations, except you are trying to sell me they are completely different rules.

"YOU CANNOT USE ANY OTHER RULES THAT ARE NORMALLY TRIGGERED IN THAT PHASE"

So triggering matters

"WHEN: If a rule states that it takes place when a certain trigger occurs, unless otherwise stated, that rule takes effect before any others"

It's literally a quote from the designers commentary

So a rule useing "When" prefaces a trigger

I acknowledge there is some ambiguity in trigger definition though as it is not formally defined and so may be broader but "when" worded abilities are by definition triggers and that's all that matters for meteoric to be classified as a trigger" and so not function.

"Each" has no such definition as a trigger - static is just a colloquial term for a continuously applying ability that doesn't require a set trigger to activate, there are lots of them in the game. given there is no RAW definition of each as a trigger i conclude its not. If you can prove through RAW that Each is a trigger it would not function exactly the same as Meteoric.

"Each time the model is set up on the battlefield using deepstrike, it can be set up anywhere"

I cant see a trigger in that line it reads like its continuously active your not chooseing to activate it.-

As to your RAI its not obvious- it's obvious if you word something the same you intend it do the same thing. If you word it differently you have usually done so for a reason. There's no pretty much the same, its the same or its different.

We actually have evidence of GW wording rules differently why intending them to be the same thing. That was exactly what happened with all the different versions of Fight Last.

Lets remember that we had all these RAW arguments about different wordings of Fight Last abilities only for GW to clarify that all those rules were the same thing regardless of wording difference.

U02dah4 wrote:
It doesn't have to have a phase requirement that doesn't effect anything its not a requirement of the out of phase rules rule

Only that it it normally triggers during the reinforcements step

So Does Deep Strike normally activate in the Reinforcements step?

If yes then you can't meteoric

Take it to the next level: Does Deep Strike normally activate in the Reinforcements Step? Then you can't Deep Strike. Rapid Ingress just allows your Reserve to arrive on the battlefield in your opponent's turn. It doesn't enable Deep Strike because that's a phase limited rule.

Rapid Ingress does nothing because there is no standard way to arrive from Reserves that doesn't use some other rule, either Deep Strike or Strategic Reserves (which isn't quite the same as Reserves).

U02dah4 wrote:
"YOU CANNOT USE ANY OTHER RULES THAT ARE NORMALLY TRIGGERED IN THAT PHASE"

So triggering matters

"WHEN: If a rule states that it takes place when a certain trigger occurs, unless otherwise stated, that rule takes effect before any others"

It's literally a quote from the designers commentary

So a rule useing "When" prefaces a trigger

I acknowledge there is some ambiguity in trigger definition though as it is not formally defined and so may be broader but "when" worded abilities are by definition triggers and that's all that matters for meteoric to be classified as a trigger" and so not function.

"Each" has no such definition as a trigger - static is just a colloquial term for a continuously applying ability that doesn't require a set trigger to activate, there are lots of them in the game. given there is no RAW definition of each as a trigger i conclude its not. If you can prove through RAW that Each is a trigger it would not function exactly the same as Meteoric.

"Each time the model is set up on the battlefield using deepstrike, it can be set up anywhere"

I cant see a trigger in that line it reads like its continuously active your not chooseing to activate it.-

As to your RAI its not obvious- it's obvious if you word something the same you intend it do the same thing. If you word it differently you have usually done so for a reason. There's no pretty much the same, its the same or its different.

"Each time the model is set up on the battlefield using the deepstrike ability"
That is the trigger. If you replace Each time with When it reads exactly the same.

"it can be set up be set up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 3" horizontally away from all enemy units."
This is you choosing to trigger the rule.

@King Garland absolutely you can use a stricter interpretation of trigger then neither meteoric or tunnels would work. However as noted the difference is that When is defined in RAW as a trigger where as each is semantically in or out based on how you read it unless you can show me a specific definition for each in the core rules or designers commentary in which case I will agree with you.

@Tyran comment 1 Firstly yes different wordings create different outcomes shocker. However the RAW and tournament community in the example you gave of fight first/last only ever had one interpretation which was the interpretation GW clarified later for people who struggled to understand their wording it didn't change how it was being played at tournaments. A better example is 8th edition +1 to hit vs +1 to bs 90% of the time they are identical however the tiny difference in wording created a quantifiable effect when stacking its almost like we have evidence of gw writting different things and meaning different things and a lot more of it when you don't cherry pick.

@Turan comment 2/ Breton So turan you've flipped full circle to rapid ingress does nothing well done (slow clap) except as usual you are wrong. "The argument that their is "no standard way to arrive from Reserves that doesn't use some other rule" is a stupid argument of course its correct you can't do something without a rule but not all rules are disabled only those that normally trigger in the movement phase. If a rule is static (doesn't trigger) or an effect of a previous trigger it still applies e.g. (if the unit can reroll 1's to hit it would still do so in an out of phase shooting attack) if it does not normally apply in the movement phase it still applies.

DEEPSTRIKE - During the Declare Battle Formations step, if every model in a unit has this ability, you can set it up in Reserves instead of setting it up on the battlefield. If you do, in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" horizontally away from all enemy models.

So when does the rule trigger - DURING THE DECLARE BATTLE FORMATIONS STEP - ok so not the reinforcement step of the movement phase so deep strike applies as normal. *

It is the rules that trigger in the phase that are disabled not the effects of triggers.

*"The Turn/the Phase: If a rule triggers during ‘the turn’ or ‘the phase’ instead of during ‘your turn’, ‘your phase’, ‘your opponent’s turn’ or ‘your opponent’s phase’, that rule triggers in both players’ turn/phase." So during also defines triggers based on the designers commentary.

I agree. Neither Deep Strike nor Strategic Reserves are triggered by the Reinforcement Step of the Movement Phase. Rather they both tell you when to deploy the unit and how to deploy the unit. Rapid Ingress gives you an Out-of-Phase deployment at the end your opponent's Movement Phase.

Based on that, any rule that you are allowed to use when you Deep Strike is allowed unless that rule specifically calls out a phase. Neither of these unit abilities does that.

That's my view as well.