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Right, here is a question for you all.

Does fear of the darkness require line of sight?

The wording on fear of the darkness is: "this power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Every enemy unit within 12 inches of the librarian not locked in an assault must take a morale check, with a -2 modifier to their leadership, or fall back. All normal modifiers and/or exceptions apply (ie, units that never fall back are immune to this power).

Now, the rulebook says: "Unless specified otherwise, phychic attacks are subject to the usual shooting rules, so a psyker must be able to see the target, all attacks must be directed against a single target unit etc..

Now, it seems pretty clear cut to me, fear of the darkness requires line of sight. However, nearly everyone I have ever played or spoken to about this says that fear doesn't require line of sight. Are they right, or is every person I have ever spoken to about this talking rubbish?

There doesn't seem to be anything that says it doesn't require line of sight...so, by the rulebook, it must require line of sight.

Also, does fury of the ancients require line of sight? It just says to pick a point on the table edge, and off the power goes...but there is nothing to say that you dont  need line of sight to that table edge first! Yet everyone sits their librarians behind rocks,  casting fury of the ancients loads of tims, dealing everyone and his mother d3 strength 5 hits, and causing a bunch of pinning checks.

Oh, and im a marine player who uses librarians quite a bit, so this would greatly benefit me if I was wrong about this.

The reason I ask is because these powers are absurd if they require no line of sight. I was playing a game against Imperial Guard, and a codicier and Tigrius practically won me the game! Tigurius scared off the entire guards flank with fear of the darkness, making them either run off the board, or run outside cover, so my assault cannons and heavy bolters could mow them down. The codicier, using fury, kept pinning the guard units. This meant he was unable to shoot my land speeders or dreads, and I killed his entire flank in 2 turns with 0 casualties. From there, I just kept lobbing whirlwinds shells and fury of the ancients at his other flank, safe from any return fire as I was behind a terrain piece, and there was nothing he could have ever done about it!

Are the powers really supposed to be as cheesy as this??

Long debated, without any clear answer.  The problem stems from the description of psychic powers in the rulebook, they say that they follow all the normal shooting rules unless 'otherwise stated'.  The side against needing line of sight suggest that the rules for FotD and FotA are that 'otherwise stated', and so the normal shooting rules do not apply as the powers have their own specific rules for how they work.  The side for needing line of sight suggest that 'otherwise stated' means the psychic power needs to specifically say that it does not need line of sight.

Although, I believe the recent Spanish FAQ says that Fury of the Ancients does not need line of sight, so the debate will continue for Fear of the Darkness.

I personally think that they need line of sight, but I let all the marine players in my area play the way they want because at this point I just want to finish a game.

If you saw a sign that said, "Unless otherwise stated, all fruit costs $1 each"

And then another, "If you would like a pineapple, please ask an employee and they will get one for you"

This would not mean to me that pineapples are free, but that's how some of these people are interpreting the psychic power rules for some reason.

- Oaka

Oaka, that is a false dilemma. If the sign says all fruit $1 and you have to ask for a pinapple it could just as easily mean a pinapple costs $2 or is free. The analogy fails because of this false dilemma.
The problem with English English is that for some odd reason, despite inventing the language, they don't have a clue how to actually speak it in a technical manner. So unless otherwise stated gets put in, which is a load of horse because anything modifying normal proceedure in anyway is necissarily stating otherwise.
My interpretation, both powers operate outside the normal rules of shooting, they do not follow the normal rules of shooting, because they are "otherwise". In lieu of real technical wordings from GW, this is the best you can get.

a  point on FOTA

if LOS was needed why does it specifiy that it isn't affected by terrain and only stopped if it contacts a friendly unit of a close combat?

the rules say pick a spot on the table edge, not a spot on the table edge you can see.

so no FOTA does not need LOS

 

i don't use fear but it appears to be an area effect weapon which also precludes it from needing LOS

Oh God. Here we go again.

Fury of the Ancients - Since this has been FAQed by the Spanish that it doesn't need line of sight, this is no longer a concern to us.

Fear of the Darkness - I really don't mind if this power does not need line of sight, as long as it follows consistently with using Tigurius.  There are only two interpretations I see as valid:

A:  FotD is a psychic power that targets every unit within 12".  This would mean that you need LOS to each of these units, but it also means that Tigurius will double that range to 24".

B:  FotD is a psychic power that targets the librarian and affects every unit within 12" of him.  This would mean that you do not need LOS to any of these units, but it also means that Tigurius will not augment the power in any way.

My only real concern is when the marine players mix n' match and try to get the best of both worlds, then I get irked by it.  Either way above seems perfectly reasonable to me, but it would be nice to know which way you played before the game, as always.

- Oaka

Hi folks, I don't post too often brcause spam is evil.

FotD " Every enemy unit within 12 inches of the librarian not locked in an assault must take a morale check" Thats the unless otherwise stated part, so FotD doesn't need LOS or a to hit roll. Its centered off the librarian and everyone within 12 is affected (not hit, but affected)

And as far as this Tigurius, his hood of hellfire states that it extends the range of all psychic abilites by double, not double the area of effect. So none of this 24" FotD everyone running off the board madness. For example a plasma cannon has a range of 36" and an area of effect of a small blast template.

My big thing about that stupid Spanish FAQ was that they followed RAW with every other group but marines. Marine Terminators can ALWAYS deep strike, even the ones taken as wargear even though RAW the ones bought as wargear would obviously NOT always deepstrike. But warriors can be instakilled by lascannons, Devilfish with Pathfinders can't scout, so pathfinders can't have the vehicle they are required to have in escalation, and a slew of other poor reads but marines get the "intent" behind theirs even though it was not worded that way. It wasn't internally consistant.

As for these 2 powers. I have no way of reading it. As worded they don't need LOS from my reading. But I don't know the intent behind the rules, nor do I know why anybody would intend to give deep striking units capable of so utterly crippling low ld armies. Even Marines have an issue with Fear if they don't have a Commander on the field. Fury seems like a giant "STFU" to people that use cover to hide their units effectively. Both powers could still be potent with requiring LOS, and both work as worded without it.

Developing tactics to avoid getting pounded by these powers hasn't been that difficult, just annoying.

Right, so fury definetly does not require line of sight, as its been FAQed by the spanish.

Thats one thing sorted out I guess...

Oaka...about Tigurius, I guess you could say I was one of those players who mix and match to get the best of both worlds- not because im a cheater, its because I think, RAW and intent is how it works...

For a start, the Librarian tactica on GW mentions that Tigurius doubles the fear of the darknesses range. As GW wrote the article, one would hope they knew what they were talking about (though of course you cant be sure with GW...).

Secondly, if you look at the wording for the hood of hellfire in the old space marine book, it says, under the hood of hellfires description, "the hood of hellfire works in the same way as a normal psychic hood. In addition it doubles the range of Tigurius smite psychic attack to 24 inches".

Now, yes, I know that there was only one power that space marine librarians could use at the time, so saying it doubles the range of all psychic powers would have been silly. My arguement is that, if they really wanted only smite to be affected by the hood of hellfire, they would not have changed the wording, to "all psychic powers". They would have just kept the wording the same! Because if you look, only smite has a defined range. Fury has unlimited range, might of heroes and veil of time are not range dependent, and vortex of doom just states "within 12 inches of the librarian"...exactly what fear of the darkness states! So, if we follow the idea that Tigurius cant double fear, he cant double vortex either. So only smite would be affected, and they would have kept the original wording from the old space marine book.

Thirdly, double fear of the darkness is the only reason to take Tigurius . And, if he cant double anything but smite, he is waaay overcosted. Take a normal Epistolary (115pts). Now, he already comes with a phychic hood and a force weapon. Give him a bolt pistol (up to 116pts). 15pts to make the force weapon master crafted (131pts) Frag and krak grenades are 3pts, so we up to 134pts.

Now, are you really telling me the ability to pick 2 psychic powers after deployment is worth 30pts?? Of course it isnt, you could buy your 2 phychic powers for 30pts anyway! Dont tell me anyone actually takes smite on Tigurius, and this effectively makes the hood of hellfire useless!

Forth, it would be stupid to have Tigurius requiring line of sight to use fear of the darkness, yet a normal codicier does not! Insanity!

Fifth, I believe RAW there is a case for having Tigurius' range doubled. The range is 12 inches, all around the librarian. When Tigurius uses it, he doubles the range, to 24 inches all around him.

Lastly, its going to be impossible to convince space marine spayers in my area that Tigurius does not have his range doubled. I believe he has his range doubled myself, and even if I didn't, there is no way they would ever listen to me. Its going to be impossible to convert them...can you imagine having Tigurius, and you drop pod him in, cast fear of the darkness, and your opponant is telling you its only got a 12 inch area of effect?? I would never get them to listen, and, not wanting to be at a disadvantage compared to everyone else, ill just keep playing the way 99% of the world does it.

Seriously, most people wouldn't even spot this kind of thing! I bet most just read it, think 12 inches is the range, doubled to 24 inches, and thats that. Its only inside dakkadakka that this is actually debated, its not going to affect the way the rest of the world plays it, even if you are right.

I suppose it wont be resolved until there is an FAQ..which, given how long it takes GW to produce FAQs, it might take some time...

Tiggy doesn't get to double the range because there is no range listed for Fear of the darkness, plain and simple.

FoTA doesn't need LOS because it extends to a table edge and tells you to apply the hits to each unit the line crosses until it hits the board edge, friendly unit or impassable terrain. This is much more specific and does not work in any way like shooting, and would therefore not follow the shooting rules. If it had a restriction on ending when the next available unit was out of sight then it would follow LOS. It is an overpowered power that's for sure.

Fear of the Dark affects models within a specified distance. This is more specific than shooting and would supercede the shooting rules. If GW wanted to have it only affect those in LOS they should just have put it in the power instead of describing an area of effect. Again poorly written if it is supposed to be LOS and again an overpowered power, but hey, this is Marinehammer 40k after all.

 

So...technically, could Tiggy use Fury and have it cross *2* tables (say, at a tournament)?

Cuz that would be the rOXXOr and I think Marines need the power boost with all that plasma out there.

Posted By Strangelooper on 06/29/2006 4:36 PM
So...technically, could Tiggy use Fury and have it cross *2* tables (say, at a tournament)?

Cuz that would be the rOXXOr and I think Marines need the power boost with all that plasma out there.

No, because it would stop at the table edge.......

I agree. Marines did not get enough of a boost in this edition.

I stand by my view that fears range is doubled. But the actual question I asked was does it require line of sight. There doesn't seem to be a common view on this one.

Just an interesting (though irrelevant) point:

If you believe that tiggy's fear isn't 24", you also must believe, for the same reasons, that mind war+augment still only goes to 18" (and in fact that augment has no effect at all, as no eldar farseer powers have a range).

"Marines did not get enough of a boost in this edition."

this is why you shouldn't do drugs! are you kidding!?!?

yeah, my guardsmen are laughing at them as they run off the board!

you don't think marines got enough of a boost, check out IG psykers!

that's suck!

For a start, the Librarian tactica on GW mentions that Tigurius doubles the fear of the darknesses range. As GW wrote the article, one would hope they knew what they were talking about (though of course you cant be sure with GW...).

Sorry, you mean the same GW that had a unit of warphounds in a Dark Eldar army without Wytches?
They don't even know they own rules, that much is obvious. You know how many glaring errors I see in the battle reports in a white dwarf? And these are the guys that made the rules. Those folks need an editor and a set system for points values.

That Spainish FAQ is a joke thanks to its own lack of internal consistancy. Read the rules as written for 2 other races but refuse to do so for the marines. If they figure the intent of the rules was obvious for one thing, why didn't they for the others?

Posted By mauleed on 06/30/2006 6:10 AM

Just an interesting (though irrelevant) point:

If you believe that tiggy's fear isn't 24", you also must believe, for the same reasons, that mind war+augment still only goes to 18" (and in fact that augment has no effect at all, as no eldar farseer powers have a range).

There's a correlation to rapid firing up to 12" being a "range" under the same circumstances too if the word range is not required, and instead a distance to do soemthing is given.

Mindawar: choose model XX distance away...

FotD: All units within 12 inches...

Rapid fire: May shoot twice up to 12 inches....

 

Posted By Oaka on 06/28/2006 11:38 AM

If you saw a sign that said," unless="" otherwise="" stated, all="" fruit costs="" $1="" each="">

And then another, "If you would like a pineapple, please ask an employee and they will get one for you"

This would not mean to me that pineapples are free, but that's how some of these people are interpreting the psychic power rules for some reason.

- Oaka

That not the same situation, the second sign makes no mention of cost and there for isn't stating a different price. however if "stated otherwise" means that you had to state when they don't apply, then in your example its not enough to say that apples are $2, you also have to say they are not $1.

Alarmingrick, while fear of the darkness hurts guard, it has no advantage against tyranids, or other fearless troops. This makes it highly situational.

That said, I wouldn't like to be on the recieving end of tiggys fear of the darkness if i played guard, so you have my sympathies.

Midnight, the white dwarf battle reports are irrelevant, its not what we were discussing. I hold the librarian tactica as proof that fear is doubled to 24 inch range. I am also mentioned the old space marine book, and the vortex of doom comparison. You have yet to provide any proof saying the way your reading "range" is right.

Besides, its blatently obvious to any reasonable person how the power should work! The range is 12 inches around the librarian. Tiggy doubles this to 24 inches. I believe if GW had not wanted fear of the darkness to be effective, they would have made an effort to put that in the hood of hellfires description!

Now, im sure we can agree on 2 things:

1) 99% of the world is playing that tiggy does indeed double the range.
2) The wording supporting either arguement is on shaky ground at best, in which case some common sense should be applied, and intent looked at (I know they say dont do this on the dakka forums, but I bet you cant find anything in the rulebook to support this). The intent is clearly that tiggy doubles the range to 24 inches.

No one is doubting the intent. But intent isn't really relevant.

We're discussing the actual rules, not the intended ones.

Posted By burnthexenos on 06/30/2006 1:20 PM

Was this a serious response in a rules discussion? I'll assume that it was, for the sake of argument.

Besides, its blatently obvious to any reasonable person how the power should work!

Apparently not. If it was so obvious, there would not be a debate.

The range is 12 inches around the librarian. Tiggy doubles this to 24 inches.

And what is the range of a frag missile?  48", or a 2" circle?
The 12" area of effect is just that, a 12" area of effect, not a range. Range is a defined game term and Fear does not include it in its description.

Now, im sure we can agree on 2 things:

1) 99% of the world is playing that tiggy does indeed double the range.

Count me in the "1%". How is it that you have collected verified accounts of so many people's opinions?
I field marines, and if I ever did run Tiggy, I guarantee you that I would never double his Fear range. If for no other reason than that I'm not 100% sure that its legal.

(Until FAQed, that is. )

2) The wording supporting either arguement is on shaky ground at best,

Fair enough. In such a situation, the one making the action should take the least advantageous one. Other wise, you might be gaining an unfair advantage. A good sportsman will err on the side of caution.

in which case some common sense should be applied,

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." -Albert Einstein
My idea of common sense obviously disagrees with yours. Who's should we follow?

and intent looked at

Who are you to claim that you know the designers intent? Designers intent can rarely be verified, hence its uselessness in most situations. WD battle reports and internet tactica are not proof of designers intent. How many of them are actually produced by the designer in question?

(I know they say dont do this on the dakka forums, but I bet you cant find anything in the rulebook to support this).

Umm, the absense of its inclusion in the BGB, Codices, and FAQs is clearly support enough that it has no place in a rules discussion. Or are you saying that we can include any little snippet of an idea simply because we think it should be applied even though it is nowhere to be found in the official printed material?

The intent is clearly that tiggy doubles the range to 24 inches.

You're right, its clear. Crystal. Wow, thank heavens the designers have finally told us what their intent was.

My point was that the Librarian Tactica is written and edited by the same people that don't know the rules well enough to field a legal army in a battle report. It's not in or part of the codex, nor it is an official FAQ on their English website.

Intention is fine and dandy, but they also intended to have nids in synapse be immune to instakill from weapon strength and by RAW that isn't correct. At least some people believe that is the intention. Since GW has not released an FAQ for a year now and has instead focused more on screwing the retailers that made them survive in the US, we are left wondering.

As written "Fear" targets the Librarian. Range could be considered "self" in which case doubling of self is, well, weird. The 12" AoE around him is not the range of the power, just the area of effect. The hood doubles the range, not the area of effect. Or does Tiggy get to put down a 3" template for vortex? It can be argued to be the same thing, since it is essentially a blast area around him, not range. He's always the target. It could have said "Make a psychic test. target all units within 12" with a psychic power that causes them to..."

GW needs to grasp the concept of making explanations for their wording more common.
"This is how LOS works." Then put in how it works with each example of common situations. Vehicles, monsterous creatures, infantry, skimmers, close combats, and how they all interact. Instead we get the rules in 4 different places and they can be confusing and some people would argue they contradict themselves. These powers have the same issue. You can see how they intended to have it happen, but they contradict known rules. This is the reason we have "You Make the Call"

You can play Hood of Hellfire however you want right now.

If you are touting the Librarian tactica as canon for rules discussion, have you fully ignored this line in the Powers section?

Fury of the Ancients. This power is particularly useful at long range, as it can go all the way across the board (within line-of-sight, of course).


http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/spacemarines/gaming/tactica_librarian/powers.htm

Well, considering that a FAQ trumps an article on a website, once the new FAQ hits the English sites, that page will be worthless.

Posted By lord_sutekh on 06/30/2006 3:24 PM
Well, considering that a FAQ trumps an article on a website, once the new FAQ hits the English sites, that page will be worthless.

I think you missed the point he was making. People were trying to use the article for no LOS. Here the poster was pointing out, like elsewhere, people don't read correctly and miss a little bit of pertinent info.

His first line says "If you are ....."

 

Mauleed, you have to look at intent in the absense of a crystal clear rule. Otherwise, how would we play the game? It would end up with one player saying the range is doubled, and another saying it isnt.

Moz, the reason I am ignoring that line is because it has been FAQed by the spanish. This does not, however, make the description for fear of the darkness worthless.

Blueloki, the range of a frag missile is 48 inches, with a small blast marker area of effect.

The range of tigurius fear is not specified, therefore we have to use the only range we are actualyl given, which is 12 inches, doubled to 24 inches.

As ive said before, as Tiggy could only use the hood of hellfire to double his "smite" psychic power, its very unlikely GW would have changed the wording to "all" psychic powers, expecially as like like copying and pasting stuff from old codexes.

And no, I dont have to take the least advantageous interpretation. Theer is NOTHING in the rulebook that supports this.

Yes, I might be gaining an unfair advantage. But, if I were to take the least advantageous interpretation, I may also be denying myself a completely legal advatage, making the game unfair for me. It can be argued both ways.

I can guarantee you that when I run Tiggy, his range is 24 inches for fear of the darkness, and I do that with a clear conscience, and I can sleep at night.

And I dont care what Einstein said. My view of common sense is  better than yours. Its obvious what the damn intent was, or the wording would not have been changed.

Midnight, if you ever played me, synapse nids would be immune to instant kill from weapons of double or more strength no matter what. Just look at it guys! A Krak Missile wont kill a tyranid warrior, but crank the strength up one more notch, and a lascannon tears him to bits??

I know GW needs to make their rules clearer. But we have what we have, and must make the best of it, rather than trying to abuse every little loophole.

To all of you...its clear to me how the power works! By RAW, and intent, the "range" of tiggys fear is 24 inches.

Someone said this in the devilfish thread...if you were a new player, having just read the rulebook and the codex, with no outside influence from rules lawyers ..ahem, sorry, "members of dakkadakka", woudl you consider tiggy to double the range of fear or not?

You all know what you would think. You would think that tiggy doubled it to 24 inches. None of this crap about the range been "self"  and so the range isnt doubled!

Many of us contend that if they wanted Tiggy's fear to be 24", they would have written it in a way that made that clear. You're right though that the rulebook doesn't demand you take the least advantageous position in an unclear situation, that's a sportsmanship thing - a topic that is arguably beyond the scope of the rulebook and possibly beyond the scope of your game.

I dropped the line in from the Librarian tactica to show just this: you are pulling straws from every possible area to grab at the greatest advantage, even when taking all of the information from one of your sources would create a disadvantage elsewhere that you won't accept. They have a name for behavior like this, I'll let you figure that out.

Posted by burnthexenos on 07/05/2006 10:54 AM
Mauleed, you have to look at intent in the absense of a crystal clear rule.

The designer's intent or your opinion on what the designer's intent is? Because unless the designer tells you "This is what I intended" all that you have is YOUR opinion on what the rule should read, not the designer's intent.

I'm of the opinion that Pathfinders get a free move in their devilfish that can always deploy with them even in escalation thanks to scout. I also believe Nids are immune to lascannon instakills, Marine Commanders can take Terminator armor and deep strike no matter what, and Those 2 powers work in nasty ways. Thing is, I believe it because it makes sense and I don't care if it isn't RAW. However, I do it to all armies to not screw my opponent and give them the best possible chance. Monoliths aren't immune to Powerfists, AP1 doesn't cut through a skimmer if it equals their armor value as well. I try to be nice. However, when someone argues that it is clear that something is some way even though RAW do not support them, I indicate otherwise.

That devilfish debate is a prime example. I can see they intended to make the D-fish a transport. But I am frustrated because they didn't do a consistant job with it. Needing almost no time to update a codex they still screwed it up. Putting a symbol next to the Devilfish caused the whole problem.

My point here is this: GW needs to learn how to write intent into their stuff. Examples of how stuff works is the best way to do it. Considering they can't even get it right in their own battle reports and articles, I get more angry every time I see them produce stuff and not fix what they had prior to that.

Posted By burnthexenos on 07/05/2006 9:54 AM
And I dont care what Einstein said.

Hence the low test scores American children today.

My view of common sense is better than yours.

OMFG!!!! That is the single funniest thing that I have ever see typed! Even more so that Kid Kyoto's previews (although, not by much)! Definitely quote-worthy.

You don't really believe that, do you? If so, I pity you. I truely do. So sad.

Its obvious what the damn intent was, or the wording would not have been changed.

[sarcasm]Yes, obvious. So obvious that there is no disagreement. Absolutely none, hence the absence of any sort of debate on the subject. [/sarcasm]