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Hi folks,

I have a couple of Firstborn Marines squads around. One Tactical Squad. One Assault Squad. I am planning to make a small Blood Angels force. Ideally, I'd like to build something that wouldn't be illegal in previous editions. I haven't played for a long time, and was never that experienced. How would you build these two squads, for lore, for competition, or for fun? Also, how would you expand the force next, like HQ choice or heroes? Worth getting a Sanguinary Priest, or Blood Angels Chaplain?

Would an "all Chainsword" loadout be a terrible way to play them?

Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to be a bit more specific, here is what I was thinking for the Tactical Squad:

1 Sergeant with Inferno Pistol and Chainsword
7 Tactical Marines with Boltgun
1 Tactical Marine with either Melta Gun or Flamer
1 Tactical Marine with Missile Launcher

For the Assault Marines, I'm not sure.

First, welcome to Dakka.

We are just about to get a new codex, so I’d hold off for a week or so before breaking the glue out.

The way 10th does upgrades the points are baked into the squad cost, so there is less reason to be restrained with handing out toys. Think of what you need the squad to do and give them the tools to do the job.

How big is your army going to get? Tac squads are pretty flexible and can help fill roles your list might be a little light on.

For assault guys with JPs they are getting a new kit, and probably new rules/restictions. Old assault marines will probably be counts-as assault intercessors w/ JP. Sarge should probably have the options you expect, as for the squad it’s looking like 1 guy in 5 can have a plasma pistol.

We will have the facts in like a week.

 Nevelon wrote:
First, welcome to Dakka.

We are just about to get a new codex, so I’d hold off for a week or so before breaking the glue out.

The way 10th does upgrades the points are baked into the squad cost, so there is less reason to be restrained with handing out toys. Think of what you need the squad to do and give them the tools to do the job.

How big is your army going to get? Tac squads are pretty flexible and can help fill roles your list might be a little light on.

For assault guys with JPs they are getting a new kit, and probably new rules/restictions. Old assault marines will probably be counts-as assault intercessors w/ JP. Sarge should probably have the options you expect, as for the squad it’s looking like 1 guy in 5 can have a plasma pistol.

We will have the facts in like a week.

Thanks for your reply man.

My army will probably stay around 'combat patrol' in size - just under 500 points or just above - but not as high as 1000. I have another force for bigger games; this is potentially for re-enacting fluff battles from older editions. I'd love to fight Ork battles from 2nd, or the Desolation of Baal from 8th, for example. I'm not sure what my army will be facing most, but my opponents have Necrons, Tyranids and Eldar - potentially Orks and Chaos too. I'm a bit more familiar with using tac marines than assault, which I have never had in an army.



Eagerly awaiting what the new rules say. In the meantime, is there any big no-nos across editions regarding Assault Squad loadouts? I just don't know them outside video games, where they are always built with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol. So, in terms of what I want them to do, I don't really know. I guess they can jump to objectives fast? I'm guessing in 10th, people will take once expensive wargear quite liberally.

Grain of salt: I play Ultramarines, so YMMV with regards to BA. Less relevant in 10th for now, but big in prior editions.

Speaking of which, do you have a particular old one you want to be compliant with?

From memory for assaults.
In 3rd, you could have 2 plasma pistols per 5 guys.
4th, added flamers to the mix, but went down to 1/5.
IIRC BA could also take melta (maybe plasma?) but when they got that I’m not sure. Might have been 5th.
At some point you could add an eviscorator (giant 2 handed chainsword) into the squad

For pretty much anytime from 4th to 7th? Plasma pistols were massively overpriced.

So the “safe” backwards compatible load is 3 guys with BP/swords, one guy with a plasma pistol/sword, and the sarge.

What to give the sarge is also wildly dependent on editions, and if you are going to attach a character to the squad. In some editions a powerfist makes you strike last, and sarges could be challenged out of the squad. Not a good combo. But if you could afford to strike last, crunched things real good. Special pistols also ranged from overpriced trash to nice to have. My default over the years has been a bolt pistol and powersword, but in 10th you will want more toys.

Magnets can be useful here.

 Nevelon wrote:
Grain of salt: I play Ultramarines, so YMMV with regards to BA. Less relevant in 10th for now, but big in prior editions.

Speaking of which, do you have a particular old one you want to be compliant with?

From memory for assaults.
In 3rd, you could have 2 plasma pistols per 5 guys.
4th, added flamers to the mix, but went down to 1/5.
IIRC BA could also take melta (maybe plasma?) but when they got that I’m not sure. Might have been 5th.
At some point you could add an eviscorator (giant 2 handed chainsword) into the squad

For pretty much anytime from 4th to 7th? Plasma pistols were massively overpriced.

So the “safe” backwards compatible load is 3 guys with BP/swords, one guy with a plasma pistol/sword, and the sarge.

What to give the sarge is also wildly dependent on editions, and if you are going to attach a character to the squad. In some editions a powerfist makes you strike last, and sarges could be challenged out of the squad. Not a good combo. But if you could afford to strike last, crunched things real good. Special pistols also ranged from overpriced trash to nice to have. My default over the years has been a bolt pistol and powersword, but in 10th you will want more toys.

Magnets can be useful here.

I love Ultramarines too. I remember when Ultramarines and Blood Angels used to appear on all the old boxes and dioramas, I saw as a kid. The big four were always Ultras, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves. Those four chapters still get to star in most of the video games. That was my inspiration for painting a BA army.





It sounds like Assault Marines have changed a lot in the legality of their loadout. I have old 2nd and 6th edition boxes, so might play those editions, as well as 9th, which my opponents have. I think the Blood Angels have an unusually large number of Inferno Pistols, in the lore, so it sounds like that might have been a rule at some point; that their Sergeants can take an Inferno Pistol more easily perhaps (less points?).

I think in 10th, it's currently legal to do put a ton of Melta weapons on an Assault Squad. Something like 1 Inferno/sword, 2 BP/swords, and 2 with Melta Guns. Or same, but replace one BP/sword with an Eviscerator. I was wondering about that Melta build, but it sounds like that wouldn't have been legal in some editions. I'd rather not magnetise, so I'll probably choose something sub-optimal but backwards-friendly.



It's much easier to loadout the tac marines for any edition, as their loadout has barely changed. Old art always had squads with a Rocket Launcher and Flamer. I might build that, for nostalgia. Thats still legal, and swapping the Flamer for something else like a Melta Gun or Plasma, or Rocket Launcher for something heavy, is fine too.

I decided to retire my firstborn Ultramarines at the end of 9th because they just weren't competitive anymore. Since then they've removed the rules for some of the units (Ven Dread, 5-main TAC squads, Land Speeder, etc.) so I'm glad I'd already made the decision.

RomulanCommander wrote:
Hi folks,

I have a couple of Firstborn Marines squads around. One Tactical Squad. One Assault Squad. I am planning to make a small Blood Angels force. Ideally, I'd like to build something that wouldn't be illegal in previous editions. I haven't played for a long time, and was never that experienced. How would you build these two squads, for lore, for competition, or for fun? Also, how would you expand the force next, like HQ choice or heroes? Worth getting a Sanguinary Priest, or Blood Angels Chaplain?

Would an "all Chainsword" loadout be a terrible way to play them?

Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to be a bit more specific, here is what I was thinking for the Tactical Squad:

1 Sergeant with Inferno Pistol and Chainsword
7 Tactical Marines with Boltgun
1 Tactical Marine with either Melta Gun or Flamer
1 Tactical Marine with Missile Launcher

For the Assault Marines, I'm not sure.

If the Missile Launcher is what you have for the Tactical Squad, you may as well use it. But personally, in terms of backwards compatability I'd say a Lascannon has been more useful in the majority of prior editions. Given the chopice of Melta or Flamer, it sorta depends on which editions you'll play, and what armies you'd be facing. Flamers were great against horde style armies up until 7th edition. Meltas have always had a high damage output against a single model at close range, so also a fine choice.

The Assault Squad you can use in any edition if you've got Chainswords and a couple Plasma Pistols in there.

As for what to do next? I'm no expert on the Blood Angels but I've seen both Sanguinary Priests and Chaplains in most armies I've come across over the years. Death Company have always been popular, I think, as well as an iconic unit. For something tanky, a Baal Predator is a nice model, and of course the Land Raider is just cool (although sometimes difficult to use).

Hey sweet I'm also building a BA strike force and here's some of my personal musings regarding firstborn units

Tactical squad: I prefer the layout to be flexible, so magnetize Hvy & Special weapons. If magnetizing isnt an option then its Lascannon and flamer, Hvy Bolter and melta, Missile Launcher and plasma for each squad depending on role, with ML/plasma the most prevalent build. Combat squads if possible. Sergeant loadouts I try to keep complementary to the Hvy / special weapon loadouts, Lascannon build likes hand flamer and power weapon, HB build takes inferno pistol and fist, ML build takes plasma pistol and fist.

Assault squad: In earlier editions, I had problems performing reliably in melee with a charging JP squad. In some editions they did better, but in others, I had to max out the gear much more before they started being reliably effective. I was maxing out on plasma pistols, fist for the sergeant, and now even contemplating on adding a meltagun and swapping out sarge plasmas for inferno pistols (inferno pistols are getting legended though so beware). If I had to make a conservative assault sqd build, id go plasma/fist sarge, and one extra plasma pistol. Back when Eviscerators were legal, I'd try to cram em in as well. Note that I only used 5 model squads, with a ten model squad the basic layout yields better results of course..

Interesting to see what sort of detachments & crusade bits are coming..

Thanks for the replies, both of you.

Why is Plasma recommended over other guns?

I was thinking Melta might be good to jump in with jet packs then blast away at a heavy unit?

For large chunks of the history of 40k, high volume mid strength firepower has been the best way to deal with basically everything. Often even vs. tanks where melta was per the fluff the right tool for the job. Only vs. the very toughest tanks was it worth dragging out the meltagun. And even when plasma gets hot, it’s still worth it. Inside it’s niche melta has an edge, but outside of it plasma has both range and ROF, which lets it excel at many more jobs.

Fast melta does work. For those of us not playing BA where you could take it on AM we used bikes.

And now in 10th, Melta isn't really all that hot () when it comes to fighting tanks.

yeah, my feeling towards 10th ed loadouts is, you will want lascannons for antitank, meltas can go sit in the corner.

Plasma is absolutely mediocre, but it has worked consistently across editions and if you get access to anything that lets you reroll ones, you'll be wanting to overcharge it all the time, and then plasma starts taking stuff down quite reliably

 tauist wrote:
yeah, my feeling towards 10th ed loadouts is, you will want lascannons for antitank, meltas can go sit in the corner.

Plasma is absolutely mediocre, but it has worked consistently across editions and if you get access to anything that lets you reroll ones, you'll be wanting to overcharge it all the time, and then plasma starts taking stuff down quite reliably

You're thinking of last edition; with the way Hazardous works in 10th rerolls won't stop you from blowing yourself up. That said, plasma is a great anti-Marine option these days, if you can take it en masse (e.g. Hellblasters).

Interesting replies everyone, thanks! I built my Firstborn Tactical Marines yesterday, and I've just decided to go with a loadout that is probably sub-optimal, but I'm building it anyway for nostalgia - Rocket Launcher and Flamer. Pretty much the standard 2nd edition starter set squad that I remember from when I was too young to really understand Warhammer - probably "good enough" for 10th, but kitted out to play a legacy game of 2nd edition if neccecary:




However I still really don't really know what I'm doing with my Firstborn Assault Marines (with Jump Packs); I never used them in 6th edition, and I still don't know how to build them. Really confused by all the options. I could urgently do with some advice, before I build anything more.

Here is my biggest question:

1). Is any loadout option strictly "wrong"? Or is everthing at least "good enough"?

2). Is there any loadout that would be specifically illegal in 2nd edition or 9th edition?

I don't care about optimal. But I don't want a lemon. Fluff and fun matter more, if the math-hammer is only a few percent difference in chance, I don't care. If so, I might just take all chainswords, and a plasma pistol on two marines plus my sergeant (based on the love of plasma here). How does that sound? Would that be terrible, or a massive waste of points?

This is the 9th edition wargear option:



This is the 10th edition wargear option:



Incidentally: Looking at rules from 9th edition above, if you look at Blood Angels, they had access to some rifle-sized weapons, that other chapters didn't, but which now seem to be legal with everyone in 10th. So Blood Angels specific builds, like plasma guns, illegal for others in 9th, can be legal in 9th and 10th. Just thought I would mention that out of interest.

EDIT 1: In short..... Will I ever create anything truly "bad", or is any build decent enough for casual play?

EDIT 2: This is what I will do then probably:

- Space Marine Sergeant with | Jump Pack | Plasma Pistol | Power Sword

- Space Marine Battle Brother with | Jump Pack | Plasma Pistol | Chainsword

- Space Marine Battle Brother with | Jump Pack | Plasma Pistol | Chainsword

- Space Marine Battle Brother with | Jump Pack | Bolt Pistol | Chainsword

- Space Marine Battle Brother with | Jump Pack | Bolt Pistol | Chainsword

OK, time to go down the rabbit hole.

RT- always a 10 man squad. Standard gear is Power Armor (w/ communicator, respirator, auto senses) knife, bolt pistol, blind/frag/crack grenades for everyone. Sarge has a chainsword and a bio scanner. 7 guys get an additiona bolt pistol. 1 guy gets a hand flamer (with suspensors and targeters) last guy gets a plasma pistol (w/ S&T as well) The hand flamer could be swapped out for plama pistol, power axe/sword, or a webber. stock plasma pistol could be swapped for a power axe/sword. Sarge could have an additional power axe/glove/sword and plasma/virus/votex grenades. Whole squad could have jump packs, power shield, chainsowrds, or a list of grenades.

2nd (Angels of Death codex, BA side) - 10 man squad (can combat squad) Everyone has power armor, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades. Any model can have gear from the assault weapon section of the wargear list (chainsword, power axe/fist/mail/sword, bolt pistol, hand flamer, plasma pistol). 2 models can have special weapons from list (bolter/flamer/meltagun/plasmagun). Whole squad can have blind grenades and/or melta bombs. can have jump packs.

(there are also veretan assault squads, with better statlines and the sarge can have a wargear card)

3rd (codex) sarge +4-9 marines. Everyone has BP/CCW, frags and JPs. whole squad can have frags a/o meltabombs, 2 guys and have plasma pistols. Sarge can be upgraded to a vet, which gives him armory access.

3rd BA codex has standard assault squads same as codex, and vet assault squads who can still take flamers, melta, plasma in edition to basic options.
(N.B. this is the last BA codex I own, all other info is for basic codex marines)

4th - Sarge +4-9 marines. everyone has BP/CCW, frags and JPs. can have krack/meltabombs, 2 guys can have flamers or plasma pistols. Sarge can have TDA honors, which gives armory access. Can be fielded w/o JPs for a lower PPM.

5th - Vet Sarge +4-9 marines. Everyone has power armor, bolt pistol, chainsword, frag and krack, JP. 1 in 5 marines can have a flamer or plasma pistol. Sarge starts as a vet, can swap his BP/CCW for stormshield/plasma pistol/power weapon/LC/fist/TH/pair of claws. can take melta bomb and/or combat shield. If the squad want to be on foot, they get a free drop pod/rhino to ride in.

6th - Sarge +4-9. PA/BP/CCW/frag/krak/JP for everyone. 2 guys in the squad can have PP or Flamer. Sarge can upgrade to vet. Sarge can swap BP for grav/plas pistol. Can take from the melee weapon list (power weapon, LC/PF/TH) Sarge can have MB/CS. if no JP, free ride.

7th - sarge +4-9. BP/CCW/frag/krack. can take JPs. 2 guys can have PP/F, 1 in 5 can replace CCW with Eviscerator. Sarge can upgrade to vet. Sarge can swap BP for grav/plas pistol. Can take from the melee weapon list (power weapon, LC/PF/TH) Sarge can have MB/CS.

8th is largely the same as 7th. some of the swaps are a little more specific, where you trade out gear for other things. the flamer replaces both the BP and the chainsword for ex.

8.5 codex, same as above.

9th Sarge +4-9. PA/BP/chainsword/frag/krack. sarge can take from the pistols/melee lists, which include inferno pistols and hand flamers for BA/deathwatch. Sarge can take a combat shield. 2 guys can swap basic gear for PP/chainsword or flamer. 1/5 can swap chainsword for evicsorator. Can take JPs.

10th has their index version which should be valid for one more week. Next week the new codex will drop. Assault marines will not be in it. Hopefully they will get a legends datasheet, which will let us use legacy options. They are being replaces (counts-as for those with old models) Assault intercessors with JP. It looks like they will have heavy bolt pistols/chainswords. 1-in-5 can have a plasma pistol, sarge can have a heavy bolt pistol/plasmapistol/hand flamer and a chainsword/power sword/power fist. But we will have more final official info soon, or reliable leaks if you want to sift the internet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: You edited while I was going through my stack of codexes. the PP/sword sarge ad 2xPP in the squad works everywhere but 5th, where they were 1/5.

 Nevelon wrote:
OK, time to go down the rabbit hole.

RT- always a 10 man squad. Standard gear is Power Armor (w/ communicator, respirator, auto senses) knife, bolt pistol, blind/frag/crack grenades for everyone. Sarge has a chainsword and a bio scanner. 7 guys get an additiona bolt pistol. 1 guy gets a hand flamer (with suspensors and targeters) last guy gets a plasma pistol (w/ S&T as well) The hand flamer could be swapped out for plama pistol, power axe/sword, or a webber. stock plasma pistol could be swapped for a power axe/sword. Sarge could have an additional power axe/glove/sword and plasma/virus/votex grenades. Whole squad could have jump packs, power shield, chainsowrds, or a list of grenades.

2nd (Angels of Death codex, BA side) - 10 man squad (can combat squad) Everyone has power armor, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades. Any model can have gear from the assault weapon section of the wargear list (chainsword, power axe/fist/mail/sword, bolt pistol, hand flamer, plasma pistol). 2 models can have special weapons from list (bolter/flamer/meltagun/plasmagun). Whole squad can have blind grenades and/or melta bombs. can have jump packs.

(there are also veretan assault squads, with better statlines and the sarge can have a wargear card)

3rd (codex) sarge +4-9 marines. Everyone has BP/CCW, frags and JPs. whole squad can have frags a/o meltabombs, 2 guys and have plasma pistols. Sarge can be upgraded to a vet, which gives him armory access.

3rd BA codex has standard assault squads same as codex, and vet assault squads who can still take flamers, melta, plasma in edition to basic options.
(N.B. this is the last BA codex I own, all other info is for basic codex marines)

4th - Sarge +4-9 marines. everyone has BP/CCW, frags and JPs. can have krack/meltabombs, 2 guys can have flamers or plasma pistols. Sarge can have TDA honors, which gives armory access. Can be fielded w/o JPs for a lower PPM.

5th - Vet Sarge +4-9 marines. Everyone has power armor, bolt pistol, chainsword, frag and krack, JP. 1 in 5 marines can have a flamer or plasma pistol. Sarge starts as a vet, can swap his BP/CCW for stormshield/plasma pistol/power weapon/LC/fist/TH/pair of claws. can take melta bomb and/or combat shield. If the squad want to be on foot, they get a free drop pod/rhino to ride in.

6th - Sarge +4-9. PA/BP/CCW/frag/krak/JP for everyone. 2 guys in the squad can have PP or Flamer. Sarge can upgrade to vet. Sarge can swap BP for grav/plas pistol. Can take from the melee weapon list (power weapon, LC/PF/TH) Sarge can have MB/CS. if no JP, free ride.

7th - sarge +4-9. BP/CCW/frag/krack. can take JPs. 2 guys can have PP/F, 1 in 5 can replace CCW with Eviscerator. Sarge can upgrade to vet. Sarge can swap BP for grav/plas pistol. Can take from the melee weapon list (power weapon, LC/PF/TH) Sarge can have MB/CS.

8th is largely the same as 7th. some of the swaps are a little more specific, where you trade out gear for other things. the flamer replaces both the BP and the chainsword for ex.

8.5 codex, same as above.

9th Sarge +4-9. PA/BP/chainsword/frag/krack. sarge can take from the pistols/melee lists, which include inferno pistols and hand flamers for BA/deathwatch. Sarge can take a combat shield. 2 guys can swap basic gear for PP/chainsword or flamer. 1/5 can swap chainsword for evicsorator. Can take JPs.

10th has their index version which should be valid for one more week. Next week the new codex will drop. Assault marines will not be in it. Hopefully they will get a legends datasheet, which will let us use legacy options. They are being replaces (counts-as for those with old models) Assault intercessors with JP. It looks like they will have heavy bolt pistols/chainswords. 1-in-5 can have a plasma pistol, sarge can have a heavy bolt pistol/plasmapistol/hand flamer and a chainsword/power sword/power fist. But we will have more final official info soon, or reliable leaks if you want to sift the internet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: You edited while I was going through my stack of codexes. the PP/sword sarge ad 2xPP in the squad works everywhere but 5th, where they were 1/5.

Thanks for taking the trouble to go through your Codeces, it was very kind, and really appreciated.

I will build them like I mentioned above, because I'm unlikely to play 5th edition. However, that is a reallly really useful reference that you have made, and I think it will help other people in future who have questions about Firstborn models. If I ever play 2nd edition, I'll just have to find 5 more models, or stick to my Tactical Squad, but it's no big sweat; they are compatable with most editions, which I'm glad about.

You really cleared up my confusion about what was legal between editions, so thanks once again.

No problem. One perk of being older then dirt is a deep library of legacy stuff. I enjoy my role as a Living Ancestor, passing on knowledge to the young. Plus it was a fun nostalgia project over my Saturday morning coffee.

Obviously these are just the legal options. What was point efficient is a whole different story. And would require a deeper analysis of each codex then I can fit in on a rainy weekend morning.

2 plasma pistols and sarge with pp is indeed solid and works across editions. Power weapon on the sarge is also more flexible than a fist, I personally like prefer fist but pwpn is better against hordes

Regarding tacs, ML & flamer, aint nothing wrong with that, its got antihorde, decent owerwatch and krak missile for harder nuts. Its just not got much punch beyond the krak msl.. maybe give sgt meltabombs?

 tauist wrote:
2 plasma pistols and sarge with pp is indeed solid and works across editions. Power weapon on the sarge is also more flexible than a fist, I personally like prefer fist but pwpn is better against hordes

Regarding tacs, ML & flamer, aint nothing wrong with that, its got antihorde, decent owerwatch and krak missile for harder nuts. Its just not got much punch beyond the krak msl.. maybe give sgt meltabombs?

Nice, I'm glad I've chosen something okay - I was thinking Missle Laucher doesn't excel at any one thing, but is flexible.

I'll take Melta bombs like you say if the game requires some more anti-armour; thats a good call.

ML/F has never been a good choice, but always a classic one. I’ve fielded it at least once in every edition so far (although haven’t got my marines to the table in 10th yet). It’s a generalist load in a game that rewards specialization though.

One problem is that frag missiles suck. They always have. Over the past decades of fielding MLs, I’ve regretted (almost) every one I’ve tossed downrange. But invariably there is a situation where I say “This is the perfect situation for a frag to shine” and I give it another try. And then wish I just used krack missiles. The one exception was in 5th? when I had a TML/HB land speeder light up a pack of 'gaunts in the open. One time, over all these years.

That said, krack missiles do work. And MLs are often aggressively priced on tac squads. Free at times. If all you are going to shoot are kracks would you be better investing the points into a LC? Probably. Or for editions where you can’t split fire, get something that synergises better with the squad’s bolters? Maybe. But nothing is more iconic.

The flamer has never really been the “best” option. It does have a number of perks though. One of which is that enjoys shooting the same things as all the bolter marines. And is often inexpensive for editions that are not 10th.

When I have 5 points to spare at the end of list building, a MB on a tac sarge is often the way to spend it. 5/6 of the time it’s just a waste of points. But that last game? When you are standing over the twisted wreckage of a very expensive tank? Worth it. And tac squads tend to be pushed aggressively up the table and can find themselves in a situation to plant them.

I have heard a lot of warnings that frag missiles aren't that good - I'll do some experimenting with krak and see how things go. Like you say it's too iconic, and it was too tempting for me to resist

Back in the olden days I had an Ork army, and some Marines - always thought Necrons and Eldar looked super cool. Those are the four armies I would like to build for 10th. (Plus nids from the Leviathan box). Necrons have the advantage of being super easy to get looking good - very few options to consider either - fielding them is a breeze.

I like the older Ork sculpts so will be raiding ebay probably. This guy looks better than the current warboss to me: