Switch Theme:

Can Kasrkin operate in space?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

According to Codex: Imperial Guard (3rd edition, second codex), yes. Standard Cadian gear can be used for short periods in airless environments. This doesn't just include Kasrkin, line infantry carry the same basic equipment and respirator.

Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

It is certainly a stop gap. Cadians can operate in airless environments for short periods, they definitely won't be the first choice for doing so. Their default equipment is not going to be void-hardened, so vulnerable to failing under the rigours of combat, and is missing useful gear for manouevring in low-gravity like mag-lock boots.

Basically, a Cadian unit caught out in a transport ship or space installation isn't immediately doomed if the atmosphere is breached. I'd assume they'd use proper void suits if expecting prolonged void fighting.

As for training, I think that all Cadians will get void warfare training as part of their training rotations (assuming they live long enough to receive such training). We even have a colour scheme for Cadian Orbital Defense forces. I suspect that they will get rotated through postings on system space stations.
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

Caveat: the following is based on lore prior to the Fall of Cadia. Surviving Cadian regiments and Cadian colonies could have different patterns of training and deployment.

So the way Cadia seemed to train and deploy its units was to rotate out individual companies out separate from the main body of the regiment. For example, prior to the 13th Black Crusade, the Cadian 8th had several companies deployed to hostile environment training on Prosan, garrison duties on fortress worlds in the system, and attached to Inquisitors. This equated to half the regiment. It may be the case that smaller formations are parcelled off.

We have this information for units garrisoning Cadian orbital defenses:


Note that the Cadian 512th is a full Imperial Guard regiment, but a portion of it is on orbital defense duties.

The implication is that every Cadian stationed in the Cadian system would be expected to rotate through an orbital deployment at some point and presumably receive relevant training prior to and/or during that deployment. I have no idea how often units rotate or how early they would start this (would whiteshield platoons rotate with the full unit they are shadowing? Is it full guardsmen only? Do cadets get some basic void training before even joining the whiteshields?). It is likely that a proportion of Cadians have not received their orbital rotation yet and die in service before they ever do, but what proportion is unknown. I'd expect that if a unit survives long enough it can be rotated to an orbital deployment more than once.

Such training would also be applicable when on transport vessels moving into new warzones, and the Imperial Guard do engage in void operations against enemy forces on airless moons or asteroids (see Elysians for a notable example), or in space stations.
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Still a big assumption being assigned to an Orbital platform must include EVA training.

We also have ongoing backfilling of casualties throughout a Regiment or Company’s service. In an ideal world, you’d try to backfill with veterans from places that suffered higher casualties, creating Veteran Companies/Regiments, but this is 40K and so it seems most likely whilst that remains the ideal, you get what you’re bloody well given at the time and be happy with it.

And, being able to survive a short time in a vacuum in Hostile Environment equipment doesn’t suggest it’s something really factored into battle plans.

Training to get across smallish areas open to the void without having to go the long way round still pressurised areas? Sure. But not fighting in the void as a standard.

Again I’m very happy to concede if anyone does get “proper” void/EVA training, it’ll be Kasrkin or similar elite regimental assets.

That is fair, but I'd also argue it is an equally big leap that Cadians assigned to Cadian orbital defenses don't train for combat in that environment. Otherwise, they will be combat ineffective as soon as their fighting position loses atmosphere. Given this occurs very commonly as a result of most of the boarding techniques used in 40k, such as boarding torpedos and Dreadclaw assault pods, it could be expected that units defending a space station will have to negotiate a loss of atmosphere during combat. Really only teleporter attacks won't risk breaching the hull.

In terms of what such training involves, I'd expect it to at least include emergency training- how to make a fighting withdrawal from a breached compartment to a sealed compartment. However, units deployed to an orbital detail probably get proper void equipment rather than basic gear and may have significantly greater capabilities, otherwise they cannot do their role in repelling common boarding action scenarios. They are not on board a space station to look pretty! Those troops could be deployed elsewhere if they cannot fight in orbital conditions effectively. I do think any focus would be on skills for active defense of space defenses- so fighting inside breached corridors and rooms rather than true EVA outside the space station.

Generally speaking, there is little point providing equipment with a capability if there is not at least rudimentary training in that capability, or a soldier will not reliably do it during combat stress. Cadians are known to train from early childhood and are uncommonly competent. I am confident they typically train to exploit the capabilities of their equipment, where circumstances allow. I don't think this is going to compare to troops explicitly focused on void warfare, like Naval armsmen, but it is likely above the standard of most guardsmen. As mentioned, Elysians do explicitly have EVA training and frequently fight in airless environments in their home system, so there is precedence for some Guard fighting in space. We also have examples like the Arcadian 26th rifles repelling a boarding assault by Orks upon their transport vessel. This suggests basic void combat within the confines of vessels is not unheard of, although the Arcadians are noted as being unusual in successfully counter-attacking onto the Ork vessel and causing it to disengage.

Re. regimental replenishment. The Cadian example above was for units stationed in the Cadian system, so would be replenished from Cadian stock. How training and replenishment would look for Cadians moved out of Cadia is going to vary massively depending on circumstances. Even more so with the loss of Cadia (the planet not the system) and the formation of Cadian colonies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/11/20 13:16:10


 
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

I don't like the use of the term extra vehiclar activity (EVA) in this context. Little void combat is going to be EVA, it will be inside space stations and vessels (which may be breached and airless, but still a contained environment) or on and in airless asteroids and moons. These are very different environments to open space, where there is a huge risk that the wrong move or impact sends you off into the depths of space, never to be seen again. Ship corridors are little different to tunnels or bunkers, except the atmosphere and gravity can dissappear due to enemy action.

If you look at Naval armsmen, they are poorly equipped for true EVA- they have no manouevring gear when not attached to ship decking. The mag-boots are great in corridors and probably useful on the exterior of a ship's hull, but not helpful if moving across the void. Contrast to even basic power armour, which has manouevring thrusters as standard. Elysians probably do have EVA training and equipment, because it seems grav chutes can still be used in space and include integral thrusters.

I have no idea what proportion of Cadians have been deployed to an orbital detail (it could be low), but I think it would be odd if those that have didn't know how to fight in void situations within ship/station corridors and rooms. That isn't the same as EVA and probably requires much more available equipment. Those skills would then be transferable to their basic gear for short periods of time in a pinch.

Re. equipment- void suits and training are common enough that Naval ratings will wear them for boarding actions, under the supervision of Naval armsmen of course. Ratings are essentially militia when it comes to fighting boarding actions- they have other duties usually and only get given weapons to repel boarders or for training drills. Not clear how widespread the use of void suits by ratings is within a given vessel or the Navy in general. It probably varies at the discretion of the captain. This gear will also be inferior to the armsmen armour.

Agree re. Kasrkin being most likely to be trained for void combat- supported by their use in the Kill team space hulk narrative.

I'm not really sure of the relevance of veterans to this discussion? Is it regarding dissemination of skills? Most of this lore about Cadians comes from those stationed in the Cadian system on garrison duties, so veterans and replenishment of casualties are not particularly relevant to that. They are operating as PDF troops.
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

Imperial Guard fighting in space is not an issue. The separation of Guard and Navy relates to transport vs garrison- the Guard cannot transport themselves between worlds, the Navy lacks the manpower to hold a world. They must work together.

Elysians are a notable example of Guard with a specialism in void combat:
"The Elysia system and surrounding wilderness space is notorious for its marauding Ork warbands and pirates, as a main trade route through the sector passes through Elysia, and the system's many swirling gas clouds and hundreds of asteroid fields provide perfect ambush sites. Through combating this ever-present threat, the Elysians are therefore well trained in ship-to-ship boarding actions, and fighting in concert with orbital support when attacking isolated pirate bases."
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

Found some more interesting snippets related to Imperial Guard in void warfare.

First is the Imperial Guard regiments from the world of Arminium:

This is a barren, airless world with important mineral deposits. The gear is clearly a pressure suit.

Secondly, I came across a short story in White Dwarf of (traitor) Guardsmen defending an "orbital hive" that was the main population centra around a gas giant.

So essentially, it appears that Imperial Guard can have jurisdiction over void habitats and airless moons/asteroids. I presume it depends on whether there is an Imperial Governor controlling the colony or not.

Edit: Orbital Hive 72 above the gas giant Porphyr III, from White Dwarf 276.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/11/30 13:38:31


 
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

In addition to the above, there is another bit of information relating to Imperial Guard fighting in void conditions with the 3rd edition codex, contained within the page about the deployment distribution of the Bruttiam 23rd. Obviously not talking about Cadians, but interesting nonetheless.

The Bruttiam 23rd is a veteran regiment, deployed to garrison duties in the Xenthorp system after active campaign service (less than 1000 troopers remain, including attached forces). This includes a garrison on Xenthorp Major, Xenthorp Minor, and Imperial Monitoring Station 89/999c on a moon of Xenthorp 10.

The latter is notable, as the troopers deployed to the station are stated as being equipped with and trained in the use of type 97 pressure suits for combat on the moon. The wording is a little ambiguous and could mean the entire regiment is thus equipped and trained, but I think the following sentence about heavy weapons alterations for low gravity and airless environments strongly suggests only the station garrison is trained for void combat. The regiment also controls a civilian system ship for transport between the garrison planets and moon, upgraded with a single gun deck. System ships are void vessels but are not warp-capable and are tied to the system they are in. Typically, they are not controlled by the Imperial Navy but by the planetary goverment(s) in the system.

The regimental history states the regiment repelled Eldar raiders whilst garrisoning the system- chances are these would be corsairs and may have involved void combat, although the Eldar attacked Xenthorp Minor.

This is presented as fairly routine, so it seems Imperial Guard forces are frequently used in void combat scenarios and can be equipped for it as appropriate. However, it would also support that they are not trained for it as standard across the Guard (although some worlds obviously do, like Elysia and Arminius).
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: