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We need a general thread for rules discussions as per other LI threads that just swell with other questions than the original topic, to be able to find them in one place.

FAQ/Errata Link: https://www.warhammer-community.com/legions-imperialis-downloads/

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Question 1 - Astartes Flyer weapons with Skyfire & Light (Heavy Bolters) can't damage other flyers. Intentional waiting for e.g. flying Daemons , or a mistake?
N.B. SA Flyers got Light AT for their Heavy Bolters & Heavy Stubbers so it's inconsistent.

Question 2 - Template / Flamestorm weapons vs Structures. Currently only the Warhound Inferno Gun. RAW they can only hit models under a template which prevents models in a Structure from being hit. As it's a weapon designed to engulf Infantry in cover I assume this will be FAQed/Erratad to RAI but until then how do we play it?
I suggest all models in a structure being under on a 4+. Regardless of # floors within said Structure as there is no rules differentiation for this.

Question 1:
Heavy bolters have traditionally done antiair work in 40k planes in previous Epics, and given that's what other flyers in the game do, that is highly likely to be a typo.

Question 2:
While Firestorm is indeed badly worded for the exact purpose you'd want to use it in, there are couple of other bits we can use to infer what should be done. The first and most important bit is on page 72 in garrisoning: "A model that is Garrisoned within a Structure can move as
normal in subsequent phases and treats the entire area of the Structure as its base." Basically, by strict RAW, if your flamer template can cover 50+ % of that particular structure you can roll normal To Hit rolls against every model garrisoned there or failing that, roll 4+ in order to make To Hit rolls.

Given how Firestorms and Blasts work on partial hits is going to cause so many headaches for people who want to stick to the RAW, since you can only assign hits from those weapons to models under the original template *and* ignoring those partially under who you didn't roll a 4+ for...

1. is a curious one. At first, I was thinking that maybe the catch here is that planes arent actually listed as "Vehicles", and therefore not ignoring Light weapons (like WALKERs), but seems like all the flyers are indeed listed as type VEHICLE

 Sherrypie wrote:


Question 2:
While Firestorm is indeed badly worded for the exact purpose you'd want to use it in, there are couple of other bits we can use to infer what should be done. The first and most important bit is on page 72 in garrisoning: "A model that is Garrisoned within a Structure can move as
normal in subsequent phases and treats the entire area of the Structure as its base." Basically, by strict RAW, if your flamer template can cover 50+ % of that particular structure you can roll normal To Hit rolls against every model garrisoned there or failing that, roll 4+ in order to make To Hit rolls.

Given how Firestorms and Blasts work on partial hits is going to cause so many headaches for people who want to stick to the RAW, since you can only assign hits from those weapons to models under the original template *and* ignoring those partially under who you didn't roll a 4+ for...

Thank you. This clarifies RAW but leaves practical problems as you say.

A If the Structure footprint is too large, or too close to the firing model so that the template does not cover >50% of the Structure no models are hit. Meaning large enough Structures are safe vs flame template weapons..
B Wound allocation in mixed detachments. This will get messy as you say. For example one model from this support detachment can get hit, two regular Legionnaires and one Terminator base. Tedious to keep track of.

 westiebestie wrote:


Thank you. This clarifies RAW but leaves practical problems as you say.

A If the Structure footprint is too large, or too close to the firing model so that the template does not cover >50% of the Structure no models are hit. Meaning large enough Structures are safe vs flame template weapons..
B Wound allocation in mixed detachments. This will get messy as you say. For example one model from this support detachment can get hit, two regular Legionnaires and one Terminator base. Tedious to keep track of.

A: Not quite. The Firestorm rule means that models that are over 50 % under the template are always eligible targets while anything under that is attacked on a 4+. You only need to clip the side of the building, no matter how little, to roll 4+ against every garrisoning model. If the structure is small enough that you can cover at least 50 % of it, as every garrisoning model treats the whole building as their base, you get them all. No-one is totally safe, especially considering that Firestorm also includes Ignores Cover and thus gives no To Hit penalties or Cover Saves for the garrisoning models.

B: You don't even need to have mixed detahcments. RAW, you can only assign Hits to the particular models who were physically under the template and if they were partial hits, rolled that 4+. It is somewhat tedious even then, but on the other hand Blast and Firestorm weapons that need this fiddling are reserved for basically titans alone and won't take that much playtime in practice.

Keep in mind they have just previewed the "Malcador Crocodile" with a flame template weapon, and specifically noted its utility in clearing infantry from cover and buildings

Thanks again, seems I need to re-read that Firestorm Trait!

Regarding B I don't see the need to see which bases to assign hits to in an unmixed Detachment inside a Structure as they don't really have a position and instead occupy the whole. Do you mean when not Garrisoned?

leopard wrote:
Keep in mind they have just previewed the "Malcador Crocodile" with a flame template weapon, and specifically noted its utility in clearing infantry from cover and buildings

It is not known if the Malcador Infernus is going to use template (so far only Titans), that's why I asked if that is exactly the same weapon the Warhound has...

I do wonder when we'll see Template weapons without Firestorm. The Malcador Infernus announced today could be one. Could also just be an IC weapon.

Anyway, Template without Firestorm would mean you need to try and cover >50% of the building to get models and Large enough Structures would be immune. Which would make Firestorm have a logical role as Garrison hunters.

So,

Who can engage&fight troops (infantry) inside an structure?

- Only infantry
- Titans and miniatures with Wrecker cannot engage&fight, but they can end in bse yo base and attack the structure itself.

Am I correct?

Don"t see why non-titan with wrecker couldn't fight. They can move b2b and then count as engaged. Rules also specify winner needs to be infantry to garrison after winning combat

tneva82 wrote:
Don"t see why non-titan with wrecker couldn't fight. They can move b2b and then count as engaged. Rules also specify winner needs to be infantry to garrison after winning combat

Engaging Garrisoned Structures
Models Garrisoned within Structures have no
Engagement Zone. However, models cannot move
through a Structure Garrisoned by enemy models,
nor can they end their movement in base contact with
the Structure unless they are an Infantry model issued
with a Charge Order, a Titan or a model that has a weapon
with the Wrecker trait (see page 85). Models in base to
base contact with a Structure count as Engaged with all
enemy Detachments Garrisoned within the Structure.
Unless instructed otherwise, other Detachment types
do not count as Engaged with Garrisoned Detachments
and thus both can fire as normal in a subseq

So...

Who can engage & fight troops (infantry) inside an structure?

- All infantry
- All models with Wrecker
- Titans cannot engage & fight, but they can end in base to base and attack the structure itself.

So basically dreads cannot charge infantry garrisoned in a building.. Seems odd, would have expecyed Leviathan dreads at least to be able to do this

Leviathan Claws have Wrecker, so wreck the Structure and engage those inside, then pound the remains.

 tauist wrote:
So basically dreads cannot charge infantry garrisoned in a building.. Seems odd, would have expecyed Leviathan dreads at least to be able to do this

Leviathans can engage the garrisoning units, because they have Wrecker. Regular Contemptors cannot.

SU-152 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Don"t see why non-titan with wrecker couldn't fight. They can move b2b and then count as engaged. Rules also specify winner needs to be infantry to garrison after winning combat

Engaging Garrisoned Structures
Models Garrisoned within Structures have no
Engagement Zone. However, models cannot move
through a Structure Garrisoned by enemy models,
nor can they end their movement in base contact with
the Structure unless they are an Infantry model issued
with a Charge Order, a Titan or a model that has a weapon
with the Wrecker trait (see page 85). Models in base to
base contact with a Structure count as Engaged with all
enemy Detachments Garrisoned within the Structure.
Unless instructed otherwise, other Detachment types
do not count as Engaged with Garrisoned Detachments
and thus both can fire as normal in a subseq

So...

Who can engage & fight troops (infantry) inside an structure?

- All infantry
- All models with Wrecker
- Titans cannot engage & fight, but they can end in base to base and attack the structure itself.

Infantry can. Titans can. Models with Wrecker can. Others cannot.

 Sherrypie wrote:

 tauist wrote:
So basically dreads cannot charge infantry garrisoned in a building.. Seems odd, would have expecyed Leviathan dreads at least to be able to do this

Leviathans can engage the garrisoning units, because they have Wrecker. Regular Contemptors cannot.

SU-152 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Don"t see why non-titan with wrecker couldn't fight. They can move b2b and then count as engaged. Rules also specify winner needs to be infantry to garrison after winning combat

Engaging Garrisoned Structures
Models Garrisoned within Structures have no
Engagement Zone. However, models cannot move
through a Structure Garrisoned by enemy models,
nor can they end their movement in base contact with
the Structure unless they are an Infantry model issued
with a Charge Order, a Titan or a model that has a weapon
with the Wrecker trait (see page 85). Models in base to
base contact with a Structure count as Engaged with all
enemy Detachments Garrisoned within the Structure.
Unless instructed otherwise, other Detachment types
do not count as Engaged with Garrisoned Detachments
and thus both can fire as normal in a subseq

So...

Who can engage & fight troops (infantry) inside an structure?

- All infantry
- All models with Wrecker
- Titans cannot engage & fight, but they can end in base to base and attack the structure itself.

Infantry can. Titans can. Models with Wrecker can. Others cannot.

This is confusing (page 76):

Engaging Structures
While Titans cannot effectively fight Infantry garrisoned
within a Structure, they can attempt to destroy the
Structure itself

So all infantry and Wreckers can.

Can Titans????????????

Well dang it, actually Titans cannot as per page 76:

"Engaging Structures:
Titan models can end their move in base contact with a Structure, even if not issued with a Charge Order, and even if it is Garrisoned by one or more enemy Detachments. A Titan in base contact with a Structure counts as Engaged (but not Engaged & Pinned) with that Structure – if there are Detachments inside the Structure it is not Engaged with them. Similarly, the Detachments within are not Engaged with the Titan."

So yeah, Titans don't fight garrisoning units nor the other way round (hard to climb up a titan's foot if you're hunkering in a building, after all). But they can try to demolish the building before they start shooting other weapons, so you can crack the egg before firing the rest.

Which means that if you intend to leave the building intact, you attack it with infantry or Wrecker models that are not titanic. Which shouldn't really come as a surprise, building sized behemoths aren't necessarily the best at leaving the floor clean when they enter...

Titan can go b2b to garrison and wreck it but cant attack infantry inside as it's not engaged with infantry & vice versa.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1) can non-dedicated transport carry detachment from different formation
2) if yes can start game in transport? (would require deploying formation with transport 1st)
3) any restriction on marine transport carrying SA det's and vice versa?

Multi wound models in combat.

4 kratos vs 4 something. 2 kratos loses.

Do you lose 1 kratos or have 2 kratos wlth 1 wound?

On shooting there's rule wounded one takes hit. Didn't see same on combat


Btw for above questions. Got to be same formation as transport. Also rules out carrying allies thus.

I would, personally, go with the combats are individual, and the wound allocation essentially has to be the same

I could see a consolidation of wounds being implied but for me that feels wrong

same as how for shooting if there are four targets, one carrying a damage point, if that one is out of sight of all firing models and wounds cannot be allocated to it

I'm reading the wound allocation as being a prohibition on the controlling player spreading wounds around, not a prohibition on wounds being spread about through other means

tneva82 wrote:
Multi wound models in combat.

4 kratos vs 4 something. 2 kratos loses.

Do you lose 1 kratos or have 2 kratos wlth 1 wound?

On shooting there's rule wounded one takes hit. Didn't see same on combat


Btw for above questions. Got to be same formation as transport. Also rules out carrying allies thus.

Asigning hits to wounded models is exclusive for shooting.

fights are 1vs1 so each Kratos 1 wound.

Figured so.

Makes kragnos surprisingly hard target to charge. Same for baneblade. Overwatch not that bad, decent caf and then multiwound.

tneva82 wrote:
Figured so.

Makes kragnos surprisingly hard target to charge. Same for baneblade. Overwatch not that bad, decent caf and then multiwound.

keep in mind though it only gets to overwatch once, and while sending a handful of stands into it may not see a vast outcome you are shutting it down shooting