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'lo. I'm rejoining the hobby after a long break(last played ~5th/6th edition), and deciding on what army I should play. The choice feels like it comes down to sticking with my old Space Marine army or swapping to guard/tau.

I played SM because I liked their fantasy as a mobile, combined arms army - you could have your dudes drive up to the objective in an APC, with tanks, and supporting artillery, and all that jazz. Squads felt like squads. With the switchover to primaris, it feels like there's kind of a tonal shift. While there's some new units that just feel like remakes of old ones(Predator->Gladiator), a bunch of the other stuff feels like a total departure (aspect warrior squads like Eradicators and Eliminators, no proper APC for the numarines). I don't mind giving GW their pound of flesh for new models in new editions, but I don't really like the different direction primaris took marines in - firstborn lists felt like they had a lot more depth.

My read is that GeeDubs is going to primaris popular old units(see sternguard) and quietly squat unpopular units over time. I was hoping to pump the water cooler here and see what units people have been seeing at their local tables - still a lot of firstborn in rhinos/razorbacks or is it just primaris infantry-with-special-rules spam? As well, what other armies can fill the mobile, combined arms fantasy?

Locally, we tend to see Space Marine lists consisting primarily of newer units, but combined arms is still a thing. A typical SM list might have Scouts and Infiltrators for board control and scoring of tactical objectives. A Gladiator Lancer or two along with a Redemptor provide the armour support. Aggressors and Hellblasters also make appearances along with Terminators. Stormspeeders are also found. So combined arms is going on, but I’ve only seen one Razorback this Edition and the only Rhinos are with the traitors.

If Impulsors could carry one more model we might see more of them.

 garter_snake wrote:

I was hoping to pump the water cooler here and see what units people have been seeing at their local tables - still a lot of firstborn in rhinos/razorbacks or is it just primaris infantry-with-special-rules spam?

In my area that really depends upon how long any given SM player has been playing.
The break point is 9th edition. And tourney play.
Those who started 7e & earlier are still using alot of the 1st born stuff in casual games/campaigns etc where nobody bats an eye if you're using stuff from Legends.
Those who started in 8th tend to have mixed forces.
Those who've started in 9th, or now 10th, editions tend to have mostly Primaris based forces.
Of course for tourney play the SM players are using virtually all Primaris stuff by default.

It's very possible to still run OG Marines in the combined-arms mode. Tacticals, Devastators, Rhinos, Razors, Land Raiders amd Drop Pods still function traditionally. The real issue for me is the loss of variable squad sizes and Combat Squads which allowed a freedom to mix and match unit deployments around.

The other annoyance is the character attachment limitations, which are extremely dissapointing.

I love OG marines for same reasons you stated, and I've tried hanging on but it's too much weight. Maybe switch to chaos marines, they have a similar roster to the OG's and their line is fresh enogh to not be squatted in at least five years.

We've lost assault squads, bikers, land speeders and who knows what is next on the chopping block.

 Gitdakka wrote:
I love OG marines for same reasons you stated, and I've tried hanging on but it's too much weight. Maybe switch to chaos marines, they have a similar roster to the OG's and their line is fresh enogh to not be squatted in at least five years.

We've lost assault squads, bikers, land speeders and who knows what is next on the chopping block.

You didn't lose them. They are now in Legends. If you refuse to use all the rules of the game, that's a you problem.

It is not a question of what a player wants. I am sure White Scar players are deeply interested in having bike squad, bike characters etc. But world wide Legends is not accapted in regular games, it is on the same level as asking someone to play non matched play, open or narrative aka rare. Telling people that the rules are there and that they can just use them, is a bit like telling people in prior editions that the rule of 3 is tournament only or that the -10VP for "unpainted" is optional or the 9th sesonal scenaries are for event games only.

In general GW did practicaly everything in their power to either removed marine units from the line up, or make them so bad comparing to primaris ones that no one sane is going to take them. Points, rules and often lack of any special rules, units stats etc exist only to make people not want to play primaris. Post codex, because when the index came out, which I guess is lucky, GW wrote rules that enticed people to buy stuff like Assault Marines, Sniper Scout squads or cheap landspeeders.

As for what is played around here. Ton of ultramarines mostly for the calgar+aggresors+calgar bodyguard+apothecary+ uriel giving them quasi infiltrate. Tanks are less often run, but not because they are bad or the wrong way to play marines(BT builds spaming tanks with free Multi Melta exist and are good), it is just that getting your hands on enough of them is really hard, comparing to more infantry based lists. White Scar and RG are not played, with WS players being on the quit the game list very often. DA wait for their new codex, and play the same thing they play almost every edition, which is a lot of termintors of different kinds. Space Wolves are rare, but we have one player who plays them with the White Scar detachment with maxed out TWC units, TWC characters, bikers and biker chaplains. I don't think he wins a lot, but at least he is doing better then White Scar players. SW players who had infantry based armies, just moved on to play "successor" ultramarines and black templars.

 Gitdakka wrote:
I love OG marines for same reasons you stated, and I've tried hanging on but it's too much weight. Maybe switch to chaos marines, they have a similar roster to the OG's and their line is fresh enogh to not be squatted in at least five years.

We've lost assault squads, bikers, land speeders and who knows what is next on the chopping block.

Yeah I just saw the announcement. Chaos is an option, but it kind of has its own aesthetic. Chaos GW seems to want to push demon engines and muntants and such more then spicky marines - which tbh I agree with, forgefiends are way more chaosy then predators and the like.

ccs wrote:


You didn't lose them. They are now in Legends. If you refuse to use all the rules of the game, that's a you problem.

Lmao that's a loss dude. Stuff going to Legends means GW isn't going to be making the models anymore, or putting in the gamedev time to properly support/playtest.

Bikes and land speeders you can at least proxy, as there are same-role equivalents like outriders that are functionally just remakes so the character of the army is the same.

I've tried to run pure firstborn in 10th, but I find it just doesn't have the weight, even using legends options. The units are overcosted to death for the crime of having options, and the usual damage dealers are either bad or can't go the distance on their own. Devestators fit the latter for example, as while they're powerful, they're only one unit, and their special rule is mid at best. All the truely powerful units are primaris, besides devs really. By design or not, I can't say. The biggest kicker is just how poor boltguns are compared to bolt rifles.

If you play the 5 unique chapters, there's some play. Death Company and Sanguinary guard have some play, especially en-masse, The SW units are okay, with some wolf Calvary spam having some potential. DA units are solid, but the detachment is trash. The firstborn BT crusader squads have some use as a better tac squad, but that's about it. Deathwatch is overcosted to the moon and back, and while on paper the units are good, but the units are so harshly priced that it locks you into certain builds. 360pts for a proteus kill team is a lot, (especially when guesstimating based on other units, it's only 298pts of actual units), so you better take 5 vets+1 Bike+4 termies 4 Frag/Infernus+3Cyclones, or 4 HeavyTH/HammerShield or you're overpaying by a lot.

All in all, firstborn are in a pretty rough shape and I can't imagine it getting much better.

Firstborn work if you get the right units. But you have to worjlk harder.

Firstborn units i go with are :vanguards with jump packs fir storm shields and grav pistols
Tacticals for big units of objective holding. Not the best but missile launcher and plasma goodness.
Scouts for screening
Devs for long range. Still awesome and cheaper than desolators