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Sooo, I've always been a fan of Space Wolves. They were my first 40k army back in 2nd edition.

I liked them before they went full furry (some people used to make furry jokes even back then, but it was before they went full crazy with the wolf stuff) and liked them less the more they became a self-parody.

So, when I hear they are less wolf and more viking in Horus Heresy, I was kind of excited....

...then I started reading and it seems like they always suck.

I haven't read all the HH books, probably only a quarter to a third the way through, but almost everything I've read where the Space Wolves are involved they just come across as terrible.

Every other Legion, if I read a novel about them, I come away liking them more (I started my Ultramarines Epic 40k army partially because I was inspired by the Epic 40k armies book cover and partially because I'd just read Know No Fear). But the Space Wolves... I went in liking them and every book I come out liking them less

In one book, there's a cool concept that the Space Wolves portray themselves as barbarians because it suits their purpose, but underlying that they're actually cunning and intelligent. An awesome thought! But the reality of most books I've read is, no, they are really just ignorant foolish barbarians.

Some examples (spoilered)...

Leman Russ novel:

WTH? A book that surely should have been bigging up the Wolves makes them look like buffoons. It shows the Dark Angels in a better light than the Wolves.

Prospero Burns and Thousand Sons:


Russ vs Angron:


Watch Packs:


Recently, I read the Horus Heresy Aeronautica Imperialis book, which includes the battle for Vanaheim


So, is this the fate of the Space Wolves in the Horus Heresy era? To be the most useless legion in existence?

Are there any books which I'll read and not end up walking away disliking the Space Wolves more than when I started?

Could it be that the heresy books are all really bad?

Andykp wrote:
Could it be that the heresy books are all really bad?

Haha, they're a mixed bag. None of them have been truly great, but there's a few decent ones, and it provides an expansive story to get immersed in.

But I find mostly about how they're portrayed. I think other Legions get a good mix of super-human-soldier with more humanising features to keep them relatable, the SW not so much. And more than any other Legion (except maybe Word Bearers prior to Monarchia?) they are portrayed as just being bad at winning battles effectively.

Even Legions I've never been a fan of I kind of came away from their novels thinking more highly of them. Say the Word Bearers or World Eaters or Death Guard (though admittedly the loyalist Death Guard are the most interesting).

Some of the Dark Angels novels were bad, but more from the perspective they tried too hard to show the Dark Angels as the bestest legion ever, which does more to make them unlikeable, BUT, as across the whole series (or as much as I've read so far) I still like the Dark Angels more now than when I started reading their novels, it was just that one book that was terrible. Space Wolves are consistently terrible.

That said, I haven't read any of the Salamanders novels due to how much people advise to avoid them... maybe they're even worse?

IMO the space Wolves' popularity and schtick made it 'cool' for gw authors to hate on them because they aren't as serious as the fists or dark angels. You see how much effort they went into writing the legions that were grimdark serious, because it's adults business.

But rather than build the wolves up it seems like they just collectively decided it would be cool to deliberately write them badly. Like an inside joke.

The irony being that the overly serious business rod up the backside they took for the rest of the legions is imo even more ridiculous than space Vikings.

They tried to legitimise the inherent ridiculousness of 40k/30k and marines and treat them absolutely straight like some Shakespearian epic tragedy but imo it flipped into a absolute farce. It's like someone decided to straight face present WWE as a sublime examination of the human condition...

I find the straight faced reverence and gravitas both authors and fans have for the HH some of the worst cringe in 40k.

It probably didn’t help that the main book written from their perspective was by an author who admitted he hated them for being too flanderised and wanted to challenge himself.

Don't forget the book where Russ gets a bunch of librarians killed so he can do a hyperdramatic version of talking to himself in the mirror, then spends a bunch of lives on a failed gank attempt on Horus directly.

More seriously, I think there might be something sort of narratively interesting going on with the Wolves here. In the HH, there's an emphasis on them being the Emperor's executioners/attack dogs. They get tasked with all this grim, somewhat political business like keeping an eye on other legions or bringing innocent planets into compliance. And they're kind of less likable for it.

In 40k, the Emperor is quiet, and the Wolves are kind of just doing their only thing. They're fleshing out their sagas, killing monsters, and generally being a little less grimdark than most marines.

So viewed from a certain generous angle, there's a maybe unintentional story being told about how the Wolves are kind better off without the Emperor ordering them to be dicks. The Wolves aren't idiots, but they do value simple things. They're more likable when all they have to worry about is slaying monsters instead of "being executioners" or whatever.

Thats an interesting perspective. I dont like the wolves in 40k either, but thats more because I find them one dimensional flanderized stereotypes, whereas I feel like in 30k they at least have some more dimension even if they still suck.

The writing in the Heresy is just really variable, and all of the authors have a tendency to write non "centre stage" legions as one note stereotypes because they are getting on with their story. I think the Wolves suffer there.

But I think it's also a bit bigger than that. If I think back to Bill King's Siege of Terra, it's the Lion and the Wolf who are coming to relieve Terra, and it's Russ who races through the Palace in a fury.

In the modern novels, they've shoved both the Lion and the Wolf aside for Bobby G, and they've been bigging him up as the real thing that Horus is afraid of. Now, I really enjoy the HH Ultramarines and I really liked the little miniseries they got with the Word Bearers and World Eaters. Top notch. But I think elevating Bobby at the expense of Russ is an obvious choice that was made, probably by Abnett because he's on record as not really liking the Wolves very much, isn't he?

So it's not surprising they come off worse when they seem to have been intentionally sidelined.

It's one of the things I find interesting about the Heresy series - it's absolutely sprawling, with a crap ton of books, but they can't find space to do all the Legions justice within it. I mean at the end of the day the books are better if the writers write what inspires them, but I think it's sad that none of the good writers were inspired by the Space Wolves.

And tbh their current position as space werewolves in modern 40K is even sadder. Space Wolves as space vikings with maybe hints at something else was muuuuch cooler than full on Space Werewolves.

And tbh their current position as space werewolves in modern 40K is even sadder. Space Wolves as space vikings with maybe hints at something else was muuuuch cooler than full on Space Werewolves.

Well, isn't the werewolf thing pretty much confined to the wulfen? And the wulfen themselves are more segragated from the rest of the army than in the past. When I started playing in 5th, Wulfen was an upgrade you could give to one dude in most SW squads, there's a short story in Tales of Heresy that seems to suggest one of the SW characters' faces is doing some minor shapeshifting. But last I checked, "wulfen" are a unit all their own who have been retconned as having not been part of the chapter proper for a huge stretch of time until recently.

In other words, aren't they less were-wolfy now than they were in the past?

I think that varies. IIRC in 3rd edition you had the option of full wulfen squads, and actually IIRC also had a full-wulfen (or near full-wulfen) army list in the Eye of Terror supplement. They cut that down to being a unit upgrade for one model in a squad in 5th, but IIRC you didnt really make the model a wulfen, you gave them the "mark" of the wulfen which was a sign that they were prone to mutation or in the process of mutating but hadn't yet become a wulfen. IIRC they brought back wulfen a squad properly in 7th edition and they have remained since.

So they are now just as were-wolfy as ever, whereas 5th edition was the least were-wolfy because there weren't any actual wulfen in the army at the time.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

And tbh their current position as space werewolves in modern 40K is even sadder. Space Wolves as space vikings with maybe hints at something else was muuuuch cooler than full on Space Werewolves.

Well, isn't the werewolf thing pretty much confined to the wulfen? And the wulfen themselves are more segragated from the rest of the army than in the past. When I started playing in 5th, Wulfen was an upgrade you could give to one dude in most SW squads, there's a short story in Tales of Heresy that seems to suggest one of the SW characters' faces is doing some minor shapeshifting. But last I checked, "wulfen" are a unit all their own who have been retconned as having not been part of the chapter proper for a huge stretch of time until recently.

In other words, aren't they less were-wolfy now than they were in the past?

When I started in 2nd edition, the Wulfen weren't much of a thing, there was no dedicated Wulfen unit and from memory the only mention of them was that they were a shame of the chapter so everything was done to keep them a secret (opposed to letting them onto the front lines).

In 2nd edition, Space Wolves felt a lot more like regular Marines with a wolf/viking theme than werewolf marines. It was before Thunderwolves, before Wulfen were a unit, they didn't all go into battle with no helmet (only squad leaders and characters, same as any other chapter) and there were a lot of wolf-names but it started getting worse from after that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I think that varies. IIRC in 3rd edition you had the option of full wulfen squads, and actually IIRC also had a full-wulfen (or near full-wulfen) army list in the Eye of Terror supplement. They cut that down to being a unit upgrade for one model in a squad in 5th, but IIRC you didnt really make the model a wulfen, you gave them the "mark" of the wulfen which was a sign that they were prone to mutation or in the process of mutating but hadn't yet become a wulfen. IIRC they brought back wulfen a squad properly in 7th edition and they have remained since.

So they are now just as were-wolfy as ever, whereas 5th edition was the least were-wolfy because there weren't any actual wulfen in the army at the time.

3rd edition was pretty subdued, Wulfen weren't a unit in the codex, but were released for the 13th company as part of the eye of terror campaign supplement thing, the idea being that the 13th company stuck in the warp for the past 10,000 years had a lot of their members become Wulfen.

The 3rd edition SW codex was little more than an overpriced pamphlet, it had very little in it compared to the 2nd edition codex. Compared to 2nd edition the main wolfinisation they did was to add fenrisian wolves as a unit, and I think they added more wolf-names for wargear and weapons.

The Wulfen used to be a secret shame of the chapter and the all wulfen army of the 13th Black Crusade in 3e was supposed to be a big surprise.

Back before fenrisian wolves were failed aspirants mutated into wolves, and before the space wolves rode around on giant wolves, and rode in sleds pulled by wolves and so on.

The 5e book I remember as being particularly bad - everything was Wolf-this and Wolf-that, it was really silly. Similar things happened with most of the chapters though to be fair - all the ones who got their own codex got warped much further away from what they used to be to make them more unique and different. I think that was a mistake overall.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
The Wolves aren't idiots, but they do value simple things.

I dunno, they seem to do a lot of idiotic things in the fluff for HH

They're more likable when all they have to worry about is slaying monsters instead of "being executioners" or whatever.

One thing I don't like about the "being executioners" thing, it's never really explained WHY they'd be good in that role. They don't seem to have any particular prowess that would make them better than any other Legion in that role.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
The writing in the Heresy is just really variable, and all of the authors have a tendency to write non "centre stage" legions as one note stereotypes because they are getting on with their story. I think the Wolves suffer there.

But I think it's also a bit bigger than that. If I think back to Bill King's Siege of Terra, it's the Lion and the Wolf who are coming to relieve Terra, and it's Russ who races through the Palace in a fury.

In the modern novels, they've shoved both the Lion and the Wolf aside for Bobby G, and they've been bigging him up as the real thing that Horus is afraid of. Now, I really enjoy the HH Ultramarines and I really liked the little miniseries they got with the Word Bearers and World Eaters. Top notch. But I think elevating Bobby at the expense of Russ is an obvious choice that was made, probably by Abnett because he's on record as not really liking the Wolves very much, isn't he?

So it's not surprising they come off worse when they seem to have been intentionally sidelined.

It's one of the things I find interesting about the Heresy series - it's absolutely sprawling, with a crap ton of books, but they can't find space to do all the Legions justice within it. I mean at the end of the day the books are better if the writers write what inspires them, but I think it's sad that none of the good writers were inspired by the Space Wolves.

And tbh their current position as space werewolves in modern 40K is even sadder. Space Wolves as space vikings with maybe hints at something else was muuuuch cooler than full on Space Werewolves.

Wasn't aware that Abnett didn't like the Wolves.

Sometimes they try too hard to big up the faction being focused on.

I read Leman Russ and the Lion's book in the Primarchs series quite close together and the contrast is almost funny. The Lion's makes me dislike them because they try too hard to make the Dark Angels awesome. Like, it talks about how different Legions have their specialities... but the Dark Angels don't have a speciality because they are actually just the best at everything. And how the Lion has a special relationship with the Emperor. From memory it even suggests the Lion was the better choice for warmaster, but Horus "needed" it more so it was given to him. Makes them more unlikeable when they're portrayed as being the most awesome of awesome.

But then the Leman Russ book is almost the exact opposite, the Space Wolves can't do anything right in that book, and surely that's the book where the authors would go out of their way to make them look good

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


One thing I don't like about the "being executioners" thing, it's never really explained WHY they'd be good in that role. They don't seem to have any particular prowess that would make them better than any other Legion in that role.

That's true! Good question. If I had to theorize, I'd guess it's because Russ seems to have a mentality that's well-suited for the job. He's good at double-think. He won't tie himself in knots questioning the justness of a mission to, for instance, wipe out one of the redacted legions the way that the more philosophical or "noble" primarchs might. He'll think the job through and be creative in a way that Angron probably wouldn't. Ditto Perturabo who would presumably just send wave after wave of dudes at the target while trying to coax them into a too-reactive deathtrap. He won't get distracted the way Lorgar or Fabius might or be working with an undersized legion the way the EC or Salamanders would be.

Plus, iirc, Russ was one of the first primarchs the Emperor found, so he might have simply been the best option available when it came time to execute the redacted legions. And taking out the redacted legions seems to be what cemented the Wolves' role.

So looking at the other legions:

Dark Angels: El'Johnson says in a recent book something to the effect of, "The emperor sends wolves when he wants to make a statement. He sends us when he never wants you to have heard about the problem at all." So probably wouldn't be bad at the job, but might already be tasked with less noisy jobs.

Emperor's Children: Not sure how distractable Fabius was pre-chaosification, but I know his legion was constantly dealing with the Blight. They simply might not have been numerous enough to kill the redacted legions.

Iron Warriors: Frankly, I think they're too focused on defense to utilize the offense needed to hunt down and wipe out all survivors.

White Scars: Good at the whole hunting thing, but I think the Khan might be too much of a thinker for the job. He seems much more willing to question things and think about the orders he's given. Which isn't what you want in an executioner carrying out contraversial tasks.

Imperial Fists: Like UM, they're just not particularly well-suited to the task. Like IW, siege warfare isn't necessarily conducive to wiping out all enemies if they include runners.

Night Lords: Would love the job, but would you trust Kurze with some of your most sensitive assignments?

Blood Angels: Too noble. Too open-minded. Too much of a poster boy (in-universe) for the Crusade.

Iron Hands: Would probably be fine, honestly. I don't know if they'd particularly excel at the job, but they'd do fine.

World Eaters: Too prone to berzerk rampages. I wouldn't trust him to make sure he cleared out the last of a redacted chapter. Would you?

Smurfs: Guilliman might be too straight-laced, and also their tactics aren't necessarily especially well-suited for wiping out cousin legions or "making examples" the way the Wolves are said to.

Death Guard: Morty's daddy issues probably drop him lower on your list of picks for handling sensitive assignments.

Thousand Sons: Too thinky. Too opposed to wiping out knowledge. You just know they'd keep a few redacted legionaries hidden away somewhere for the sake of seeking knowledge.

Black Legion: Daddy's favorite couldn't possibly be subjected to that nasty business. Especially when he needs to become the shiny posterboy warmaster at some point. Can't charm your brothers when they know it's hypothetically your job to kill them if they step out of line.

Word Bearers: Would get halfway done, start building a temple to celebrate their work, and then compose hymns about what they'd been assigned to do instead of brushing it under the rug.

Salamanders: I know Vulkan plays ball, but I still think he'd be too noble for the job. Plus, perpetually understaffed legion.

Raven Guard: Theoretically really good at the job, but Corax might be a bit too thinky for it. By the end of the Heresy, he seems to have concluded that the Emperor was wrong to have created the primarchs at all, and I kind of suspect his plan is to wipe out the non-daemon primarchs once he finishes with the daemonic ones. If he was that borderline by the end of the heresy, giving him extra mental trauma/reason to question the Emprah by having him destroy other legions could have sent him down that road even sooner, to disastrous result.

Alpha Legion: Theoretically really good at the job, BUT you can't be a menacing public executioner if you aren't public. Also, depending on what lore you believe, the twins may or may not have been in play until the later stages of the Crusade.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

One thing I don't like about the "being executioners" thing, it's never really explained WHY they'd be good in that role. They don't seem to have any particular prowess that would make them better than any other Legion in that role.

I seem to recall a passage in one of the books indicating that the space wolves quickly gained a reputation for brutality and collateral damage in their operations. Not ideal if you want a compliant population or to capture infrastructure intact, but very handy if you want to very publicly make an example of someone, so those were the kind of jobs they got. I also don't think a lot of the other primarchs/legions took the whole "Emperor's executioners" thing very seriously and considered it to be self appointed bragging on the part of the Space Wolves. Like the Emperor made some throw away comment or joke and the Wolves made it their entire thing rather than it being something actually earned or an official position. Views like that are generally expressed "in universe" though and tainted by the narrator's biases.

Primarily I think it is just the wolves being portrayed as quite literally the Emperor's attack dogs and them being quite a handy to point to in order to intimidate people into falling into line.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


One thing I don't like about the "being executioners" thing, it's never really explained WHY they'd be good in that role. They don't seem to have any particular prowess that would make them better than any other Legion in that role.

That's true! Good question. If I had to theorize, I'd guess it's because Russ seems to have a mentality that's well-suited for the job. He's good at double-think. He won't tie himself in knots questioning the justness of a mission to, for instance, wipe out one of the redacted legions the way that the more philosophical or "noble" primarchs might. He'll think the job through and be creative in a way that Angron probably wouldn't. Ditto Perturabo who would presumably just send wave after wave of dudes at the target while trying to coax them into a too-reactive deathtrap. He won't get distracted the way Lorgar or Fabius might or be working with an undersized legion the way the EC or Salamanders would be.

Plus, iirc, Russ was one of the first primarchs the Emperor found, so he might have simply been the best option available when it came time to execute the redacted legions. And taking out the redacted legions seems to be what cemented the Wolves' role.

So looking at the other legions:

Spoiler:

Dark Angels: El'Johnson says in a recent book something to the effect of, "The emperor sends wolves when he wants to make a statement. He sends us when he never wants you to have heard about the problem at all." So probably wouldn't be bad at the job, but might already be tasked with less noisy jobs.

Emperor's Children: Not sure how distractable Fabius was pre-chaosification, but I know his legion was constantly dealing with the Blight. They simply might not have been numerous enough to kill the redacted legions.

Iron Warriors: Frankly, I think they're too focused on defense to utilize the offense needed to hunt down and wipe out all survivors.

White Scars: Good at the whole hunting thing, but I think the Khan might be too much of a thinker for the job. He seems much more willing to question things and think about the orders he's given. Which isn't what you want in an executioner carrying out contraversial tasks.

Imperial Fists: Like UM, they're just not particularly well-suited to the task. Like IW, siege warfare isn't necessarily conducive to wiping out all enemies if they include runners.

Night Lords: Would love the job, but would you trust Kurze with some of your most sensitive assignments?

Blood Angels: Too noble. Too open-minded. Too much of a poster boy (in-universe) for the Crusade.

Iron Hands: Would probably be fine, honestly. I don't know if they'd particularly excel at the job, but they'd do fine.

World Eaters: Too prone to berzerk rampages. I wouldn't trust him to make sure he cleared out the last of a redacted chapter. Would you?

Smurfs: Guilliman might be too straight-laced, and also their tactics aren't necessarily especially well-suited for wiping out cousin legions or "making examples" the way the Wolves are said to.

Death Guard: Morty's daddy issues probably drop him lower on your list of picks for handling sensitive assignments.

Thousand Sons: Too thinky. Too opposed to wiping out knowledge. You just know they'd keep a few redacted legionaries hidden away somewhere for the sake of seeking knowledge.

Black Legion: Daddy's favorite couldn't possibly be subjected to that nasty business. Especially when he needs to become the shiny posterboy warmaster at some point. Can't charm your brothers when they know it's hypothetically your job to kill them if they step out of line.

Word Bearers: Would get halfway done, start building a temple to celebrate their work, and then compose hymns about what they'd been assigned to do instead of brushing it under the rug.

Salamanders: I know Vulkan plays ball, but I still think he'd be too noble for the job. Plus, perpetually understaffed legion.

Raven Guard: Theoretically really good at the job, but Corax might be a bit too thinky for it. By the end of the Heresy, he seems to have concluded that the Emperor was wrong to have created the primarchs at all, and I kind of suspect his plan is to wipe out the non-daemon primarchs once he finishes with the daemonic ones. If he was that borderline by the end of the heresy, giving him extra mental trauma/reason to question the Emprah by having him destroy other legions could have sent him down that road even sooner, to disastrous result.

Alpha Legion: Theoretically really good at the job, BUT you can't be a menacing public executioner if you aren't public. Also, depending on what lore you believe, the twins may or may not have been in play until the later stages of the Crusade.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I think the thing I found unbelievable about Space Wolves being the executioners is that if the objective was to execute another marine legion, Space Wolves would surely be terrible at that job. Their intimidation tactics aren't going to work against another Marine legion, and their aggressiveness would play into the hands of many other legions (surely the Emperor's Children, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists would curb stomp the Space Wolves with better battle doctrine, while also the Wolves would struggle with Legions that are more CC focused).


That Dark Angels quote is from the book I was talking about in terms of the author trying to big up the Dark Angels too much. It was like, yeah, the wolves are the executioners... but the dark angels are the REAL executioners because the dark angels are just the most bestest and awesomest legion. It also talks about how Dark Angels are awesome at siegecraft compared to legions like the Fists and Iron Warriors. And also they're super stealthy. Basically they're better than everyone at everything because they're the 1st Legion, they're just less boastful so they aren't "known" for it. I like to pretend that book doesn't exist.

I rather liked Prospero Burns. It's worth noting that the Thousand Sons were trying to scientize the Warp and its denizens, which is fundamentally an incorrect approach. And contrary to what the majority of the fandom believes, Fenrisian mythology is largely true in some fashion.

Wyldhunt wrote:Smurfs: Guilliman might be too straight-laced, and also their tactics aren't necessarily especially well-suited for wiping out cousin legions or "making examples" the way the Wolves are said to.

Ironically, the Ultramarines did exactly this at Monarchia though.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
I rather liked Prospero Burns. It's worth noting that the Thousand Sons were trying to scientize the Warp and its denizens, which is fundamentally an incorrect approach. And contrary to what the majority of the fandom believes, Fenrisian mythology is largely true in some fashion.

Hot takes, get your hot takes here.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

That Dark Angels quote is from the book I was talking about in terms of the author trying to big up the Dark Angels too much. It was like, yeah, the wolves are the executioners... but the dark angels are the REAL executioners because the dark angels are just the most bestest and awesomest legion. It also talks about how Dark Angels are awesome at siegecraft compared to legions like the Fists and Iron Warriors. And also they're super stealthy. Basically they're better than everyone at everything because they're the 1st Legion, they're just less boastful so they aren't "known" for it. I like to pretend that book doesn't exist.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/10/legions-of-the-horus-heresy-do-everything-amazingly-with-the-dark-angels/

"Legions of the Horus Heresy – Do Everything Amazingly With the Dark Angels. Are you the best at absolutely everything?" It wasn't just that author's take on it, being better than everyone at everything is literally the Dark Angel's thing It is worth noting that all of those bits about how awesome the Dark Angels are at everything were in the opinion of the Dark Angels themselves, and as in-universe viewpoints they tell you only about how the Dark Angel's see themselves and are not reliable objective truth.

That Dark Angels quote is from the book I was talking about in terms of the author trying to big up the Dark Angels too much. It was like, yeah, the wolves are the executioners... but the dark angels are the REAL executioners because the dark angels are just the most bestest and awesomest legion. It also talks about how Dark Angels are awesome at siegecraft compared to legions like the Fists and Iron Warriors. And also they're super stealthy. Basically they're better than everyone at everything because they're the 1st Legion, they're just less boastful so they aren't "known" for it. I like to pretend that book doesn't exist.

Nah. See, the quote came from a DA (or the Lion?) It's not an objective assessment. It's them being biased and bragging about themselves. Which is consistent with how they're depicted in Alpharius when said primarch uses the DAs' own pride to buddy up to them. Basically, the DA seem to be at least as prone to hyping themselves up as the other legions. The kernel of truth here is that in many cases their approach to things is probably perfectly effective even if it's more "different" than "better." Like, WMD'ing a planet into oblivion isn't necessarily a one-up on the Wolves being executioners. Both have their place.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:Smurfs: Guilliman might be too straight-laced, and also their tactics aren't necessarily especially well-suited for wiping out cousin legions or "making examples" the way the Wolves are said to.

Ironically, the Ultramarines did exactly this at Monarchia though.

Hmm. Fair point. Seems like that job would've fallen to the Wolves if the Emperor was actually taking their "executioner" role seriously?

chaos0xomega wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
I rather liked Prospero Burns. It's worth noting that the Thousand Sons were trying to scientize the Warp and its denizens, which is fundamentally an incorrect approach. And contrary to what the majority of the fandom believes, Fenrisian mythology is largely true in some fashion.

Hot takes, get your hot takes here.

That seems more or less fair. I mean, the Thousand Sons' attempts to classify and understand warp phenomena seem to have held enough water for them to make use of that knowledge. Certainly, it seems like certain types of psychic talents do wax and wane over time (which is a great excuse for inconsistent psychic powers).They seem to be able to manifest specific psychic effects by studying psychic lore they find. But also, they were blindsided by the tutelaries, and a lot of what they thought they understood is probably at least partially flawed hypothesis. But not all of it. The 40k Thousand Sons are still using the enumerations, for instance.

Fenrisian myth being true is a little more complicated. Fenris seems to be an extremely psychic place. You could argue that a lot of the supernatural stuff that happens there is the result of people believing in the local mythology.

Another angle is that, without the direct guidance of the Emperor and Leman Russ, the wolves have gone "feral". They've slowly embraced/degraded into their genetic flaw over the centuries, hence the increasing wolf symbolism. At the same time, it has somewhat increased their humanity and led to them being generally more caring about the general human population.

This does maybe increase the stereotyping of the Legion, as authors lean into the werewolf or other angst tropes, but I think they still remain interesting if you can cut the fat of various authors and look at them as a whole.

The answer is yes. I don't really know why but for some reason the authors seem pathologically incapable of not making the Wolves and Russ incompetent morons. Russ is the loyalist equivalent of Fulgrim: a stupid idiot who is at times a bigger boon for the enemy than he is for his own team.

I really don't know why they chose to go this route with them.

The Watch Packs were largely trip wires. It was believed that they wouldn't turn against the emperor, so by placing them with a legion/primarch, if they turned traitor either the Watch Pack would tell you, or you'd stop hearing from them, and either way you'd know...

In the Horus Heresy the Space Wolves have to take a mauling. They need to go from smashing the Thousand Sons into itty bitty pieces while staying as a dangerous combat effective legion, to about 3,000-5,000 survivors at the end of the scouring, where their refusal to split into 1,000 strong chapters doesn't matter too much because there aren't that many of them.

(With support) they smash another legion completely on their home territory, largely taking them out apart from some remnants. They engage in a series of campaigns and counter strikes around Terra. They attack and board the enemy flagship and almost win the war. They come the closest of any Legion in doing so. Russ kills mortal Magnus, scares off Alpharius, and beats Horus in combat giving him a good old fashion spear-stabbing, and that would have been it if it wasn't for plot-armour and "oh maybe my magic spear has saved Horus" hesitation.

The Space Wolves are inconsistently portrayed, but they had a pretty good war.

The new First Founding book says "While history notes them as especially effective at tackling other Space Marine forces..."

Magnus' in War of the Fang view of the Space Wolves: ‘So strong! You Wolves were always my father’s most potent weapons. What could I ever do to withstand that? Even at the height of my powers, what could I ever have done?’ and ‘They’re still fighting? Impressive. Though perhaps I should not be surprised. It is their expertise, after all.’ ‘They are desperate, and as savage as beasts.’ Magnus lost his smile. ‘I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as the purest of us all. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father’s vision.’

What pisses me off the most is that they deliberately retconned Russ to be like this.

He used to have the third most victories after horus and the lion which is one reason he and lion fought, they were neck and neck forever.

Russ was originally a brilliant tactician, but when they retconned the heresy back in early 2000s, they decide that Russ can't stay that way.

Just like they retconned vulkans death at istvaan (going to the ridiculous extreme of having him completely unkillable) etc.

Now I haven't been around as long as some, but AFAIK Vulkan was never killed on Isstvan.

I know a lot about the Dropsite has been changed over the years such as the casualties but Ferrus was the only one to be constantly confirmed as dead unless I am mistaken.

Also, Russ still is one of the more successful Primarchs. Just because the Heresy ruins him at points doesn't erase his entire Great Crusade run.

 Gert wrote:
Now I haven't been around as long as some, but AFAIK Vulkan was never killed on Isstvan.

I know a lot about the Dropsite has been changed over the years such as the casualties but Ferrus was the only one to be constantly confirmed as dead unless I am mistaken.

Also, Russ still is one of the more successful Primarchs. Just because the Heresy ruins him at points doesn't erase his entire Great Crusade run.

There used to be a bit of a contradiction wrt Vulkan.

Some stuff implied he died at the DSM, but he was also confirmed to be about to comment on Guilliman’s reorganisation of the Astartes.

Once perpetuals got added, making him one was a good way to square all the depictions tbh.

I will have to look but my recollection of the earliest descriptions of the drop site massacres is that THREE loyalist primarchs were killed in one swoop - Ferris, vulkan and iirc corvus.

But they decided thatcthr HH had to be a big days of our lives melodrama and so couldn't kill off too many or they couldn't milk them for dozens of books.

 Hellebore wrote:
I will have to look but my recollection of the earliest descriptions of the drop site massacres is that THREE loyalist primarchs were killed in one swoop - Ferris, vulkan and iirc corvus.

But they decided thatcthr HH had to be a big days of our lives melodrama and so couldn't kill off too many or they couldn't milk them for dozens of books.

It had changed even by the very early 2000s Index Astartes series, which was well before the novel series.

There’s Vulkan being involved in Guilliman’s reorganisation as I noted earlier (though IIRC it still had implications he died elsewhere), plus Corax had a huge storyline of what he was up to after the massacre and his desperate measures to rebuild his legion.

Not sure how much (if any) of that dates back to 2nd or earlier, but it was there in 3rd.

The first depiction was in Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness.

The Primarchs didn't exist, Legions were Chapters, the Inquisition was around, and there were only five Loyalist survivors of Isstvan V before it was even called the Dropsite Massacre.

The idea that all three Primarchs were killed likely comes from the general idea in-universe that if their Legions died, so did they.
Obviously, that didn't happen but that was the general belief among the Loyalist forces for many years until Vulkan and Corax re-appeared.