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Years back I posted a similar question and didn't get an answer, but it has been bugging me recently again:

Are there any sources or fluff texts (or valid personal ideas) about the size of the population on a typical Forgeworld and how the ratio of "classes" on such worlds typically is?

In the wiki I found very very few Forgeworlds with actual population numbers, usually in the one to two-digit Billions (Mars: 20 billion, Gryphonne IV: 8 billion). So they seem to be a lot less populated than Hive worlds and the like. And those mentioned are "the big players". So I assume something between 1 million and 100 million total population is kind of the ballpark for Forgeworlds "of the second line"?

And who lives there? I assume a relatively small class of actual Techpriests, a much bigger group of Civilians (so Ad-Mech personell that is neither priest, nor Skitarii), an even bigger group of Servitors (as those should be pretty longlived) and a Skitarii population somewhere in between the Civilian and Servitor class depending on how much trouble the World is in.

So what do you think? Given a lets say 10 million Forgeworld near a battlefront would something like
200.000 Techpriests/adepts
900.000 Civilians
900.000 Skitarii
9.000.000 Servitors
roughly make sense? Or am I significantly off?

I'm sure Forgeworlds can vary wildly in population since they are defined by output which doesn't necessarily mean large populations, but often will.

You could have a Forge World with a small, but concentrated, population in one specific area of the planet where they mine a specific material to make some specific things. And you could have a Forgeworld where the entire planet is covered in industry. Obviously the latter will probably have a higher population.

An example of the small specialized type of Forgeworld could be one where there is a large deposit of very pure Adamantium. The Ad Mech has erected a manufactory specifically to make LRBTs here where they are known for having superior armor to LRBTs from the average forge world. This Forgeworld also makes Power armor and Terminator armor for the Astartes.

This type of forge world wouldn't need a huge population as it is rather specialized, only making a few products. It could easily only have a population in the millions.

Alternately, you could have a forge world where the entire planet has long since been covered in industry, its ore veins have been long since mined dry and all materials are shipped from offworld, but the forge makes basically everything. Weapons, vehicles, tools, household goods, ammunition, etc... This planet has billions of menials working away in its choaking smog covered factories.

It also depends on if the planet has any non-Ad mech presence or if it is only made up of servents of the Omnissiah. Some Forge Worlds are basically Forge/Hive Worlds with Forges in one place and a few Hives as well.

Honestly the population ratio of Tech adepts to menials to servitors is going to be entirely dependet on what they make there. And the population of Skitarii is also going to depend on how important it is.

My previous example of a world which makes high quality tanks and power armor due to a pure adamantium deposit will probably be heavily defended by a large contingent of Skitarii, far in excess of what its population might otherwise suggest. The large generalist world would have more total defenders of course, but they would make up a smaller % most likely.

Worlds which make relatively simple products would probably have a larger ratio of lower skilled workers/servitors to tech priests as they would need less oversight to make less complicated or important things. The forge that makes tupperware is not going to need as many Techpriests as the one which makes lasguns. And if you are making power armor the menials are probably only bringing raw materials and keeping the place clean, the tech priests do all the actual "work" so there are far more of them proportionally then elsewhere.


So your example could definitely work. I would say it would probably be more on the specialized side IMO. Techpriests are the elite, so their ratio to the civilians is a bit high I feel but if they're making something complicated it could be justified.

Always count in billions. Always think big.

I highly doubt there are a lot of people living on Forge World because:

+ Lots of radiation/pollution means unaugmented humans can only serve in limited places/roles.

+ Mechanicus don't want people not of their faith close to where they keep their secrets.

+ Mechanicus don't trust humans. Humans make errors. Better to have precise machines do everything.

There are undoubtedly a lot of people living on forgeworlds, despite the lethal radiation and pollution. The Imperium's technology is decaying, and ever more tasks need manual labour where once fully automated machine systems ran on their own. Not even the Adeptus Mechanicus' sacred factory planets and tech-hoards can escape this deterioration.

The answer is to increase input of hands by throwing bodies at the problem.

For instance, servitors are obviously prevalent, but there will also be many millions, or rather billions, of menial labourers.

Obviously the extremely high death rates of forgeworlds need solutions. Vast areas of forgeworlds will be completely uninhabitable for ordinary humans. Humans have very high fertility rates in the Imperium, although dampened on forgeworlds due to radiation and pollution. Still, breeding like rats is not enough. You can count on the Adeptus Mechanicus landing on Imperial worlds to scoop up excess population and ship back to their forgeworlds to fill up the numbers. This press-ganging and slave trade even show up in official publications in some form (Priests of Mars pressganging for Explorator fleet and Genestealer Cult codex mention of fervent workers exported across the Imperium), and should be understood to be relevant to forgeworlds as well.

You can also count on vat-grown humans and servitors and skitarii, and even people bred in programs of industrial breeding, where the existing population must reproduce via insemination on schedule to fill its ranks.

Thinking through the overarching themes of the setting, the following can be concluded: Forgeworlds with low populations was for the most part a thing of the past, enabled by the marvellous machine systems that made it possible to run enormous industries with small input of humans. The Imperium of M41 is a decayed place, and forgeworlds will have plenty of people slaving away to service the machines and pick up the slack where breakdowns in machine systems and loss of knowledge means that parts of the process has to be assisted by human hands on deck. There will still be large oases of automated machinery operating with a miniscule human involvement, but they are becoming more rare as the centuries grind Imperial grasp of technology and knowledge into the ground.

Yes, ideally the Adeptus Mechanicus would prefer to run their forgeworlds with a minimum of non-priesthood personnel. But they can no longer do that. So much has been lost, never to be relearned.

A big question is what counts as population. I suspect that servitors are not counted in population numbers, and the proportion of servitors in the labourer population probably varies by forge world.

The 3rd edition rulebook has a range for typical populations, I'll find it when I'm home.

The population numbers are 1 million to 15 billion (p. 115, 3rd edition Warhammer 40k rulebook)

Iracundus wrote:
The population numbers are 1 million to 15 billion (p. 115, 3rd edition Warhammer 40k rulebook)

Thanks!

Thanks, that helps a lot.

Some background to what piece of my fluff I'm currently looking at (to get a feeling if my rough numbers are in the right ball park)

Its a backwater system, dominated by a normal civilized world with a population in the lower billions. There is also a Forgeworld about the size of venus, rad saturatedand tidally locked.
The sun side is covered in solar power plants, the night side is highly specialized in the production of lasweapons, stamping billions of lasguns and millions of Multilasers, Lascannons etc. they also have a small production of older (Malcador, Carnodon, few Macharius) and odd (lots of Chimera subvariants) imperial vehicles
=> I assume the solar power plants and the Lasweapon production is relatively simple in the sense of: there are not much surprises to be expected. The work should mostly be automated or simple enough for servitors with a smaller group of civilians to keep them going and some Techpriests for supervision
=> As they (not by choice, but necessity) have to produce and modify several vehicle types, the tank forges should need a much biger ratio of Techpriests and civilians with the Servitors only doing the heavy lifting
=> as the planet is not really nice to live on I don't expect anyone living there who does not have to
=> so I think the above stated ratio of about 1 Techpriest : 5 Civilians : 5 Skitarii : 50 Servitors should not be too far of. With a total Population around 50 million (90% concentrated on the lasgun production)


So far my general idea on the topic. And if the range is 1 million to 15 billion, those 50 million sound sensible

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Thanks, that helps a lot.

Some background to what piece of my fluff I'm currently looking at (to get a feeling if my rough numbers are in the right ball park)

Its a backwater system, dominated by a normal civilized world with a population in the lower billions. There is also a Forgeworld about the size of venus, rad saturatedand tidally locked.
The sun side is covered in solar power plants, the night side is highly specialized in the production of lasweapons, stamping billions of lasguns and millions of Multilasers, Lascannons etc. they also have a small production of older (Malcador, Carnodon, few Macharius) and odd (lots of Chimera subvariants) imperial vehicles
=> I assume the solar power plants and the Lasweapon production is relatively simple in the sense of: there are not much surprises to be expected. The work should mostly be automated or simple enough for servitors with a smaller group of civilians to keep them going and some Techpriests for supervision
=> As they (not by choice, but necessity) have to produce and modify several vehicle types, the tank forges should need a much biger ratio of Techpriests and civilians with the Servitors only doing the heavy lifting
=> as the planet is not really nice to live on I don't expect anyone living there who does not have to
=> so I think the above stated ratio of about 1 Techpriest : 5 Civilians : 5 Skitarii : 50 Servitors should not be too far of. With a total Population around 50 million (90% concentrated on the lasgun production)


So far my general idea on the topic. And if the range is 1 million to 15 billion, those 50 million sound sensible

Seems entirely reasonable for a modestly-sized forge world.

Only note from me is that the Macharius is a very new design (by 40k standards), a so-called 2nd generation Baneblade developed due to a lack of access to advanced true Baneblades on many forge worlds. The others are definitely ancient designs though

I've been researching what the population on Mars would look like for a pet project

I found stuff in the original Skitarii codex about the populous mostly having augments that are backdoored so the entire populous become part of the PDF whether they wanted to or not (and are treated as expendable troops despite being civilians) in times of incursion.
It says the civvies seem to want to be a part of the Skitarii as the quality of life is pretty poor on an industrial world and getting recognition and augmented to their level is seen as a huge step-up in social and material standing.
It also says those who haven't been accepted into the Skitarii essentially LARP as augmented applicants with tattoos and piercings under the usual rags or work clothes.
But it does go on to say that all Martian civvies have "Electoos" which are "subcutaneous cyberware" which are basically wireless personal data interfaces or unspecified dermal cabling which enables the levying of the populous mentioned above.

Page 10 mentions "indentured serfs go about their labour"
Page 15 details 5 hives (Glaivid, Oxygos, Olympus Undae, Tantalus, Nilosyrtis) although some of the other places in the list may also be hives, just without the hive suffix
Page 16 mentions the social strata on mars which was very useful for what i'm working on - "The lowest level consists of the citizens, mainly un-augmented human populations who labour en masse at simple tasks" but then goes on to give the info for the first paragraph of this post that contradicts that statement. So i think it’s accurate for Forgeworlds other than Mars

Servitors are a part of civilian life too (Drone servitors are cyborgs capable of only 'menial tasks'; in other words, they are "the help" ) which brings new meaning to the phrase "I have a man for that.."

The Codex Imperialis states that the "vast bulk" of the population of Mars is servitors though so you have some ill-defined wiggleroom to take your ideas either way depending on how granular you want to go. IMO Codex Skitarii>>>Codex Imperialis
Interesting side note - a 'servitor' is a glassblowing aide who does the initial blowing for the 'Gaffer'

Edit for spelling
Edited again to stop the punctuation becoming Orkmoticons

Jumping in late, the answer, as always, is 'as big as the plot requires'.

A proper "Forge World" to me should have a population in the billions (counting vat grown, and servitors and slaves) but maybe just a few hundred magos running things.

But there's room for just plain Forges, which might be a mine or a refinery, or a lab, or an archeological expedition. Most worlds probably have Machine God temples/factories/forges where the cult watches over that world's machines.

I’ve often wondered if the admech planets were as numerous and populous as Terran/imperial planets but the emperor preferred it if they were in the background and let the Terran type humans be front and center.

The pact with mars was a clear sign that earth couldn’t stand agains mars and needed its tech but if non admech imperial world outnumbered the admech considerably once the great crusade had got so far, the. It would have been easy for the emperor to change the agreement by force

My take on the alliance is “ally now, subsume later”.

The Emperor knew the warp storms were going to clear, but not when. And so he got as prepared as he could with Unification, the Primarchs and the Astartes

Outright war with Mars was by no means a guaranteed loss. But it would take time and resources for both sides - and The Emperor evidently figured it wasn’t worth it at that point.

So the alliance is struck, compromises are made.

Longer term, I reckon there’d have been efforts made to start reducing the ritual and preached ignorance, but that could be the work of generations to fundamentally changed the Mechanicum’s outlook. Generations fate wasn’t to allow.

I figure it was a pre-emptive seperation to avoid technological subsumation later on.
The best way to stop a bunch of hyper-intelligent engineers and scientists from starting a civil war is to let them think they have control over their own domain.
The Ordo Reductors primary purpose was to remove the upsetters from a Forgeworld for the same reason.

"i can do anything?"
"do whatever you see fit; just make sure you do it in a warzone for the crusade or on your own ship in space, yeah?"
"and all i have to do is not come back?"

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My take on the alliance is “ally now, subsume later”.

The Emperor knew the warp storms were going to clear, but not when. And so he got as prepared as he could with Unification, the Primarchs and the Astartes

Outright war with Mars was by no means a guaranteed loss. But it would take time and resources for both sides - and The Emperor evidently figured it wasn’t worth it at that point.

So the alliance is struck, compromises are made.

Longer term, I reckon there’d have been efforts made to start reducing the ritual and preached ignorance, but that could be the work of generations to fundamentally changed the Mechanicum’s outlook. Generations fate wasn’t to allow.

The Emperor's actions for the entire Great Crusade seem to have had this attitude of "I'll deal with the problem later". He was in a rush to expand at all costs, nevermind the deep flaws and fault lines running throughout all the institutions of the Imperium. I think apparent swift success of going Emperor went to his head, after so many thousands of years behind the scenes and seemingly accomplishing little.

Iracundus wrote:

The Emperor's actions for the entire Great Crusade seem to have had this attitude of "I'll deal with the problem later". He was in a rush to expand at all costs, nevermind the deep flaws and fault lines running throughout all the institutions of the Imperium. I think apparent swift success of going Emperor went to his head, after so many thousands of years behind the scenes and seemingly accomplishing little.

It makes sense, though. The notable alien races had all suddenly collapsed. There was a massive power vacuum in the galaxy, and it was a unique opportunity to expand humanity's control. Dealing with the problems in the Imperium could be done at any time. Rapidly expanding across the entire galaxy could only be done *now*, before another race rose up to take advantage of the power vacuum.

Yup.

The Eldar were in no state to bother anyone very much. Orks are Orks are Orks, but Ullanor shattered their cohesion, to the point I think it might’ve been possibly to reduce them to a managed threat. A fire you can never truly put out, but no longer a raging inferno, but a series of smouldering piles you just need a relative bucket of water to keep in check.

Tau basically weren’t a thing. Tyranids were seemingly a long, long way off, and Necrons were still largely sleepy-bye-byes.

Soon as the Warp Storms cleared (which knacked the Eldar) it was time to be abroad, as it was the best chance of the nascent Imperium becoming the dominant galactic power, and preserve as much of humanity’s lost empire as possible. Because other species would also be able to be on the move again.

The Emperor seemed to keep kicking the can of resolving the problems within the Imperium down the road too long. When the initial conquest seemed to be wrapping up, what does the Emperor do? Retreat to his secret labs for the next phase of his secret plan involving apparently the Webway. He delayed resolving the contradictions and bubbling discontent within the Imperium too long, and the whole thing boiled over. Again, I think the Emperor was so caught up in the swift success of the Great Crusade that he was too eager to begin the next big step, without wanting to deal with the "boring" issue of reforming the government, dealing with the discontent Primarchs, or the issue of the Mechanicum.

Iracundus wrote:
The Emperor seemed to keep kicking the can of resolving the problems within the Imperium down the road too long. When the initial conquest seemed to be wrapping up, what does the Emperor do? Retreat to his secret labs for the next phase of his secret plan involving apparently the Webway. He delayed resolving the contradictions and bubbling discontent within the Imperium too long, and the whole thing boiled over. Again, I think the Emperor was so caught up in the swift success of the Great Crusade that he was too eager to begin the next big step, without wanting to deal with the "boring" issue of reforming the government, dealing with the discontent Primarchs, or the issue of the Mechanicum.

In fairness, he had created an administrative state to manage all the "boring stuff".

The real problem is that he was a fething awful parent and poorly managed the Primarchs in particular, which is a huge failing for such important and powerful figures. Several Primarchs and Marines railing at the growth of the administrative state is one of the chief motivations for the Horus Heresy. That was a manageable problem

Chunk of that was put beyond his control though, given the abduction.

Sadly we can only speculate if or how things might’ve gone had they been raised at his side.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Chunk of that was put beyond his control though, given the abduction.

Sadly we can only speculate if or how things might’ve gone had they been raised at his side.

That in no way absolves his responsibility to me.

Take Perturabo- almost single-handedly broken through the way he was forced to operate to the point almost his entire legion got battle fatigue. Some of this was due to Horus's designs in the last phase of the GC, but the reason that Horus was not being obviously cruel to Perturabo is that the precedent was already set by the Emperor.

If you adopt an abused person or animal, you treat them with compassion and help them to recover from the trauma, not use their abuse as a tool and force them to fight for you in similar circumstances. If you do, then don't act surprised when they turn on you later...