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This came up tangentially in the 10th edition thread and I think it is an interesting question.

The discussion in the other thread is below:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Arschbombe wrote:

Breton wrote:

I think JSJ was what drove the general hostility.

Maybe later. I think the original hostility came from the distinctly non-grimdark, anime-inspired style.

I think with Tau it was also the "army can only do one thing well" approach, since Kroot were and always have been pretty trash at melee which was supposed to be their whole role to offset the Tau's awful melee profiles.

Kroot used to put out 20 S4 attacks at WS4 from a unit of 10. That was solid enough for an auxiliary troop melee unit. They could also be difficult to shift if you used jungle/forests in your terrain thanks to their +1 to cover when in jungles/forests (which is often rare in 40K where it isn't uncommon that every battle is happening in imperial ruins as that is the terrain GW pushes and because TLOS makes forests useless for hiding anything). Then GW decided to make them S3, remove kroot rifles counting as two weapons so they no longer got an extra attack from them, and gave them sniper ammo which required standing still instead.

Also, what you just wrote can also apply pretty much equally to the Imperial Guard and probably a load of other armies.

morganfreeman wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Kroot used to put out 20 S4 attacks at WS4 from a unit of 10. That was solid enough for an auxiliary troop melee unit. They could also be difficult to shift if you used jungle/forests in your terrain thanks to their +1 to cover when in jungles/forests (which is often rare in 40K where it isn't uncommon that every battle is happening in imperial ruins as that is the terrain GW pushes and because TLOS makes forests useless for hiding anything). Then GW decided to make them S3, remove kroot rifles counting as two weapons so they no longer got an extra attack from them, and gave them sniper ammo which required standing still instead.

Also, what you just wrote can also apply pretty much equally to the Imperial Guard and probably a load of other armies.

The issue with kroot was a mixture of lack of damage and their awful save.

Their lack of power weapons (this is back prior to melee weapons having AP) meant that a shocking amount of their attacks were ineffective. 6+ meant that if they got to melee they suffered serious casualties on the counter swing. They were basically guardsmen damage output but in melee with worse armor.

Sure you could make them a bit better with shapers and krootox, but that was about as useful as pouring points into guard squads to up their damage.

Arschbombe wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

The issue with kroot was a mixture of lack of damage and their awful save.

Their lack of power weapons (this is back prior to melee weapons having AP) meant that a shocking amount of their attacks were ineffective. 6+ meant that if they got to melee they suffered serious casualties on the counter swing. They were basically guardsmen damage output but in melee with worse armor.

Sure you could make them a bit better with shapers and krootox, but that was about as useful as pouring points into guard squads to up their damage.

This reminds of a post on Tau Online (RIP) from back in the day where a player couldn't understand how his 20-man pack of Kroot only managed to kill one marine in melee. He reasoned that 40 attacks should do something more than that. Others tried to explain the math to him.

morganfreeman wrote:

Dai wrote:
Which is a problem with having to play marines so often as much as anything? WS 4 S 4 A 2 stats would do decent damage against most troops infantry in the game but you just relatively rarely got to see it.

It's always been a bit of a problem. Something can be pretty good but if it isn't against marine stats and armour it'll often as not be useless.

those 20 kroot wouldn’t even wipe 10 guardsmen in combat. If they were fighting any chaff tier combat unit (hormagaunts, ork boyz, ect) they’d get absolutely clobbered in return, usually at less ppm.

While the ubiquity of marines did have an effect on kroot effectiveness, they’ve been a bad combination of super squishy, low damage, and overcosted.

I've been looking at the 3rd edition codices a lot recently, and Kroot don't seem to be outliers. However, I think considering them as pure melee units is wrong and may be where a lot of the hate originates. They more appear to be generalist light infantry with ok shooting and ok melee that can be used as harassing units and melee speed bumps for the rest of the Tau army. I thi k this is better than fully filling the Tau melee weakness. They are also cheap for 3rd edition (7pts per model, 8pts per model with 6+ armour and Ld 8). For reference, a Guardsman cost 6pts and even Conscripts cost 4pts per model. Tau Fire warriors cost 10pts.

The following is all for 3rd edition. For example, a 10-strong Kroot squad upgraded with 6+ armour costs the same as a 10-strong Ork shoota boyz mob. They actually perform pretty much identical in melee against each other with the same base attacks, same WS, and S4 on Kroot vs S3 of Boyz, but T4 on Boyz and T3 on Kroot. Orks have a good chance of doubling I to 4 on the charge but otherwise Kroot hit first on I3. In addition, the Kroot have better shooting and can infiltrate, as well as having a niche advantage in woodland terrain. Whichever squad gets the charge will probably win. Slugga Boyz obviously perform better with an extra attack, but still probably lose with equal numbers if charged and are 1pt per model more expensive. Kroot are highly comparable to Ork Boyz in melee on the whole. They are more vulnerable to shooting in the absence of woods, and tougher in woods.

Hormagaunts are definitely superior in melee due to a combination of their rules making them highly likely to get the charge and I4 causing them to hit first. Even then, 8 Hormagaunts (80pts) charging 10 upgraded Kroot (80pts) are only likely to kill 5 on the charge. But they are also 10pts per model base, have zero shooting, and cannot infiltrate.

None of these options have grenades by default (or access to grenades in many cases), so cover has a huge bearing. For example, if the Hormagaunts charge Kroot in cover, the Kroot are likely to kill 5 Hormagaunts before they can strike (same as the Hormagaunts do to them normally).

I think Kroot hold up fine as chaff melee in 3rd with some useful shooting and infiltrate to give them better screening potential. I think folks forget how much less lethal 40k was back then.

Seems like it's the low initiative for a combat unit that hurts them. Melee wise they look like a troops level glass hammer unit but they rarely get to strike.

They were quite decent in 3rd edition. Their shooting was S4, and they were S4 in close combat. They could infiltrate, which was brilliant as the game was a lot slower in 3rd than today. They also had fieldcraft giving them +1 saves in forests or jungles. Back in 3rd terrain was a lot less likely to just be the same 4 ruined buildings, and a lot more likely to actually have a bit of variety. so against shooting, unless it was something like a flamer, your kroot would get a 4+ save against while they were in woods or forests, or a 5+ if not, which was very useful. Cover saves were fixed in 3rd and AP had no effect on your cover save.

In close combat, they were A1 base, but their rifle gave them +1, so essentially A2 base. Which was the same as Assault marines with their 2 CCW. In addition to that, the rules for supporting attacks were pretty different. While you would get +1 attack for charging, there were no pile in moves. and to get your full attacks, you had to make it into base to base. If you didn't, you could only attack if you were within 2" of an enemy model, and you only got the one attack. Combat was in initiative order, cover meant you went first, and frag grenades meant you went at the same time as anyone in cover. Casualties HAD to come from models in B2B first. there were exceptions, like when models had different WS at which point you had to allocate attacks.

So their shooting was better than guard, being S4, and since you would be in cover whenever you could, the guard would get a 5+ save even if the weapon's AP was 5, and not 6. When being shot at, you would get a cover save, and if it was jungles, it would be a 4+, so they could reliably out shoot guard. hit on a 4+, 3+ to wound vs 4+ and 4+ save versus 5+ (most of the time).
You would want to receive the charge a lot of the time if you were in cover, since you were only I3, and had no frag grenades, except if you were fighting orks or necrons when you would want to be the one to charge if they were in the open, since they were (Iirc) only I1 or 2, and you would get bonus attacks.and if they fell back, you would want kroot hounds, to get in a couple of automatic S4 hits.

In 4th they were slightly buffed, and nerfed at the same time. You could in 3rd buy Hounds and krootox using the slots from the FOC, and they joined the kroot squad, so a squad with 4 hounds, and 1 ox was a Troop, a fast attack, and a heavy support, at a time when you only had 3 each of fast attack and heavy support to use. in 4th it was a single unit (which was nice) but you lost infiltrate if you took krootox (boo!).

It wasn't until the 5th edition codex, in 2015, that Kroot were slapped hard, losing their CCW and going to S3 base. They went from being a really really strong choice to a really niche choice. I get the feeling it was thanks to a battle report where a 20 strong kroot squad held the ground floor of a building against almost the entirety of a marine army for an entire game. i'm not sure of which Wd it was, but it sure was cool to see, and probably why they were nerfed so hard. Can't have a player use terrain and close combat rules to their advantage now, can you?

Kroot used to be nearly the same as an ork boy with a shoota. The only differences were one less toughness, one more strength, one better initiative. Back in the day they could also have a squad sergeant with +2 attacks and 3 wounds.

I had a "Tau" force that only took the minimal mandatory Firewarrior unit and the rest was Kroot. Angkor Prok upped their abilities greatly for 75 points. Having 120+ infantry infiltrating turn one can be intimidating, especially when they still have some big guns walking up the board.

I think n a major use of the Kroot wasn't their offensive output per se, but their ability to tie stuff up in combat for a few rounds, allowing the Tau player more freedom to focus fire and shoot-n-scoot.

I didn't find Kroot that bad in 3e & 4e. I'd use them occasionally as I had a small # that came in the launch box + some hounds & a few Krootox.

But I liked suits, firewarriors, & the tanks more.
Still do.

New kroot are giving me all the good feels.

Used to love my kroot back in third/fourth. Id take them over fire warriors any day of the week. Fish of fury was overrated at best and pretty much obsolete mid way through 4th. Back then, 'competitive'* tau lists were 3 hammerheads, independent character-abusing command suits, fireknife suits (plasma, missile pod, muti tracker), obligatory squad of FWs in a fish, and lots of kroot.

7pts for a model with (almost) a boltgun, 2-3 ws4 bs4 melee attacks, 4+ cover save in woods and infiltrate.

Yes, zero staying power (6+ save, 7+ld) and i3 meant they were better receiving the charge in cover than assaulting. Except that time I charged a squad of terminators, went first and wiped 'em all out. Hehe, that was...fun.

But again, 70pts for a squad of 10, considering what they brought to the table? Absolute steal.

*'competitive' is a misnomer. Tau were one of the poorest performing codices back in 4th. They could sometimes pull their weight at 1000pts but at 1500pts, they rapidly ran out of 'good' options to field as per the old FOCs.They were OK in the early era of 4th, but the power curve escalated to such an extent they were very much left behind by midway through the edition. New codex at the time did nothing to help.

Interesting thread to read the history of 40k as a game for a youngster like me. I would like one a IG too, thinking of it.

Anyway, reading it seems that their has been a misconception about krrots being CCQ specialists while their mostly supposed to be skirmishers. Might be because of Dawn of War as then they were indeed CCQ specialists as the game didn't quite allow skirmishers to be a thing. I read the older codices, as I've got them, but frankly ever wondered why you would take the kroots as on paper they didn't look frightening in the least.

I'm also thinking that actually makes sense on a lore standpoints as while they are auxiliary to the tau, they're not canon fodder either so rushing in close combat and get your arse power wiped by a marinenow sounds less likely to me than actually pinning, ambushing and harassing enemy troops as skirmishers.


Anyway mostly stopping by to say I like these threads

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Interesting thread to read the history of 40k as a game for a youngster like me. I would like one a IG too, thinking of it.

Anyway, reading it seems that their has been a misconception about krrots being CCQ specialists while their mostly supposed to be skirmishers. Might be because of Dawn of War as then they were indeed CCQ specialists as the game didn't quite allow skirmishers to be a thing. I read the older codices, as I've got them, but frankly ever wondered why you would take the kroots as on paper they didn't look frightening in the least.

I'm also thinking that actually makes sense on a lore standpoints as while they are auxiliary to the tau, they're not canon fodder either so rushing in close combat and get your arse power wiped by a marinenow sounds less likely to me than actually pinning, ambushing and harassing enemy troops as skirmishers.


Anyway mostly stopping by to say I like these threads

Their fluff has always been that the Tau empire hires them for their close quarter skills and to be the muscle they lack.

Early snippets mention how they're more than a match than an ork, have wicked blades and super human strength etc.

They get there via being skirmishers, but in a blue fish world they are the close combat specialists.

Might not have been in 3rd, but Kroot did give us that funny White Scars tournament story...

 Dysartes wrote:
Might not have been in 3rd, but Kroot did give us that funny White Scars tournament story...

I was about to post this

Kroot were always a 'spoiler' unit - getting in the way, too much firepower and melee to ignore but too cheap and low priority to want to waste time attacking. They'd block deepstrikes in their deployment zone and wander up behind yours and generally get in the way.

madtankbloke wrote:
It wasn't until the 5th edition codex, in 2015, that Kroot were slapped hard, losing their CCW and going to S3 base.

6th edition (no codex in 5th). IIRC they were changed to a sniper unit to go with all of the precision shooting rules GW had added to the edition.

5th edition did have a lot of free frag grenades and durable tank shocking vehicles though, and increasingly less 'forested' areas with all the bunker, bastion, and trench-line scenery on offer. Increasingly cheap bikers and assault units also loved having these 'blocker' style units to charge into for extra movement and protection from return fire.

In my limited experience with older edition Kroot, I always imagined them as kind of a bully unit - they can take on chaff units both in melee and at range with some decent effect while hiding in ideally jungles to make them hard to shift unless you are bringing decent melee of your own (with grenades ideally) or lots of ignore cover weapons. As the editions moved on both assault grenades and ignore cover got more common which did not help - I think it was 4th into 5th that many units began to just have grenades baked into their profile.

Also couldn't you make just a huge blob of Kroot in a single troops slot? Like 30 or 40 bodies strong?

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Might not have been in 3rd, but Kroot did give us that funny White Scars tournament story...

I was about to post this

Every single time I see that, I just laugh. Its just one of those legendarily silly things that happen and it ranks up there with The Gazeebo story and The Head of Vecna in Dungeons and Dragons.

 kurhanik wrote:


Also couldn't you make just a huge blob of Kroot in a single troops slot? Like 30 or 40 bodies strong?

They came in squads of 10-20. You could add up to 12 Kroot Hounds and 3 Krootox in 4th. So you could have blobs of 35 models.

In 3rd, I think a blob of 35 Kroot would be a bit of a liability as there is no way to improve their morale beyond paying 20pts for Ld8. A bad roll after the first round of close combat could see the entire unit wiped even if they only took 5 casualties or something. Granted, there are some stronger hitters in the unit with Krootox, but such a large unit may struggle to bring all it's attacks to bear.

In addition, said 35-strong unit takes up a troops, fast attack, and heavy support slot at the same time.

Too many eggs in one basket.

When comparing kroot from back in the day, especially 3rd edition, it’s important to remember how things were actually played.

Kroot were, for example, close to a 1-for1 with ork shoota boyz in terms of damage output and durability. At a glance this is a fair comparison, but when you take a closer look:

No one ran MSU naked shoota boyz. This means that shoota boy units would generally be tooling around with things like scorchas and big shooters, which dramatically improves their firepower in comparison to kroot.

Ork (of all stripes) were generally taken in large units where Mob Check (or was it mob rule?) played a factor. This meant that they were fairly good at fights of attrition, as they didn’t need to “win” the combat snd could grind down most foes over several turns. And if they weren’t they were still very dangerous, due to nobs and Mob Up.

Ork boys were often times faster, as in Power of Da Waaagh and their moral shenanigans meant they were usually hitting before the kroot. That’s huge in 3rd edition where removing casualties meant taking far fewer yourself.

Lastly, and let’s be clear here, ork boyz had a nob and that nob had a power klaw. This was pretty much a universal rule and one of the main strengths orks had. And five s8 attacks on the charge would very much swing a combat.

As a bonus lastly, I can’t remember ever actually seeing a unit of shoota boyz in 3rd edition. Every mob I saw was choppas, who IIRC also had access to the special weapons of flamethrowers and the like.

The point is: I’m a vacuum kroot don’t stack up too badly to similar units. However this is stacking kroot up against units how they’re not actually played, as people weren’t running nobless MSU shoota boyz. In reality they often received a good kicking from remotely comparable units while bringing relatively little to the table.

Which isn’t to say they were useless. Infiltrate was STRONG, and having some squads of kroot charging shooting units (devastators and the like) T1 or else drawing inordinate fire absolutely had its place. They just weren’t killy or tanky, and were unlikely to fight at a capacity that’d earn their points back.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 kurhanik wrote:


Also couldn't you make just a huge blob of Kroot in a single troops slot? Like 30 or 40 bodies strong?

They came in squads of 10-20. You could add up to 12 Kroot Hounds and 3 Krootox in 4th. So you could have blobs of 35 models.

Kroot hounds were 2-8 in 3rd, and Krootox were 1-3. You could if you wanted attach multiple hound/ox squads to the same carnivore squad, but you could never have more hound/ox models than Kroot

The changes in 4th were a mixed bag, the best thing was Kroot of all kinds were now a single choice. Kroot hounds lost their ability to inflict wounds if the enemy fell back from combat, but gained I5 which was a nice buff. Krootox went from T5(3) to T3, and you couldn't infiltrate if you had them.

Kroot weren't ever brilliant in 3rd or 4th, but they were cheap enough you could take them without impacting your army too much, and good enough that they were worth taking.

3rd/4th ed were much different games from today, movement was slower there were far fewer shots on weapons, Rapid fire was very limiting in how you could move and shoot, and how many shots you got, and stopped you from charging if you used them, melee units, even dedicated ones were quite unlikely to wipe an enemy unit in one go. 5 banshees charging 5 tac marines would very rarely result in 5 dead marines on the initial charge, and quite often it could take several rounds to resolve, with no guarantee the Banshees would win. remember, no re-rolls, if you fluffed your dice, that was generally it.

 morganfreeman wrote:
When comparing kroot from back in the day, especially 3rd edition, it’s important to remember how things were actually played.

Kroot were, for example, close to a 1-for1 with ork shoota boyz in terms of damage output and durability. At a glance this is a fair comparison, but when you take a closer look:

No one ran MSU naked shoota boyz. This means that shoota boy units would generally be tooling around with things like scorchas and big shooters, which dramatically improves their firepower in comparison to kroot.

Ork (of all stripes) were generally taken in large units where Mob Check (or was it mob rule?) played a factor. This meant that they were fairly good at fights of attrition, as they didn’t need to “win” the combat snd could grind down most foes over several turns. And if they weren’t they were still very dangerous, due to nobs and Mob Up.

Ork boys were often times faster, as in Power of Da Waaagh and their moral shenanigans meant they were usually hitting before the kroot. That’s huge in 3rd edition where removing casualties meant taking far fewer yourself.

Lastly, and let’s be clear here, ork boyz had a nob and that nob had a power klaw. This was pretty much a universal rule and one of the main strengths orks had. And five s8 attacks on the charge would very much swing a combat.

As a bonus lastly, I can’t remember ever actually seeing a unit of shoota boyz in 3rd edition. Every mob I saw was choppas, who IIRC also had access to the special weapons of flamethrowers and the like.

The point is: I’m a vacuum kroot don’t stack up too badly to similar units. However this is stacking kroot up against units how they’re not actually played, as people weren’t running nobless MSU shoota boyz. In reality they often received a good kicking from remotely comparable units while bringing relatively little to the table.

Which isn’t to say they were useless. Infiltrate was STRONG, and having some squads of kroot charging shooting units (devastators and the like) T1 or else drawing inordinate fire absolutely had its place. They just weren’t killy or tanky, and were unlikely to fight at a capacity that’d earn their points back.

I think these are all sensible comments, but I think points efficiency is a factor. A full 30 Boy mob of slugga Boyz with Nob with power klaw and three burnas (the melee option) costs 324pts in 3rd. That is slightly more points than two full 20-strong Kroot squads with 6+ armour and the Ld boost. FoC efficiency is also a factor (1 troops choice vs 2 choices) but those upgrades and better melee potential do come at a cost in bodies. Those Boyz also have no access to grenades except on the Nob, who wouldn't benefit anyway with a power klaw. Stikkbommas cost even more and don't have choppas for taking out the heavier-armoured units.

I agree that Kroot are not good offensive melee, on the whole, but they look like good melee screens when deploying via infiltrate into cover. In the context of a Tau army, keeping enemy melee off your important shooting units with a cheap, melee competent screen is valuable.

Cover really is the major variable, doubly so if the cover is forests. Assault grenades were pretty rare in 3rd.

Ah my bad there, honestly not super familiar with 3rd/4th Tau beyond a few glances at the 4th book here and there.

Haighus wrote:In 3rd, I think a blob of 35 Kroot would be a bit of a liability as there is no way to improve their morale beyond paying 20pts for Ld8. A bad roll after the first round of close combat could see the entire unit wiped even if they only took 5 casualties or something. Granted, there are some stronger hitters in the unit with Krootox, but such a large unit may struggle to bring all it's attacks to bear.

In addition, said 35-strong unit takes up a troops, fast attack, and heavy support slot at the same time.

Too many eggs in one basket.

Yeah fair, I was for some reason thinking just a full blob of normal kroot with rifles, just hiding them in the jungle and daring the enemy to come and get them. Just annoying enough with all those rifles plinking away, while reasonably safe from ranged fire thanks to their cover saves, and hard to shift via assault unless you have dedicated assault units with grenades. But yeah, that was with me thinking the wrong thing, forgot it was a mix of all three types to get that big.

And yeah, I was thinking 4th with all as a single choice. I actually have zero knowledge on the 3rd edition Tau codex outside of what I've learned in this thread.

 kurhanik wrote:


Yeah fair, I was for some reason thinking just a full blob of normal kroot with rifles, just hiding them in the jungle and daring the enemy to come and get them. Just annoying enough with all those rifles plinking away, while reasonably safe from ranged fire thanks to their cover saves, and hard to shift via assault unless you have dedicated assault units with grenades. But yeah, that was with me thinking the wrong thing, forgot it was a mix of all three types to get that big.

And yeah, I was thinking 4th with all as a single choice. I actually have zero knowledge on the 3rd edition Tau codex outside of what I've learned in this thread.

Close combat was, different, in 3rd and 4th, and different between 3rd and 4th. It could become quite gamey. and in both editions it could be very very difficult to shift large units in cover. in both editions units in cover would strike first unless the attacker had assault grenades or some other special rule that got around it. In 3rd you had to get into B2B to get full attacks, which if as the defender you played your cards right, you could make very difficult, and while you did get supporting attacks if you were in engagement range (2"), you would get 1A per model that wasn't in B2B. Casualties would be removed from engaged models first, and then the rest of the squad, meaning you could wipe a unit out even if models were out of engagement range.

In 4th this changed to engaged models could make their full attacks, but casualties could only be taken from enemy models that were engaged, basically in B2B contact, or within 2" of someone who was. you could essentially spread your unit out to make it impossible to kill the whole unit, and make your opponent waste wounds.
Casualties in both editions were chosen by the owning player, unless you had a character, who could allocate attacks to any model in B2B, so you could punch out special weapons with your characters, and even punch out sergeants if you wanted. In 4th this ability was restricted to independent characters only, and led to the phenomenon of the hidden power fist, who would be the last to die in an assault, even if he was the guy at the pointy end.

Morale was different as well. casualties were used to decide who won the combat, and that alone. the loser took a morale check, and that was based on whether you were above or below half strength and who outnumbered whom. so hypothetically, a 20 strong kroot squad could take 10 casualties, inflict none in return, and still check on their base leadership provided they weren't outnumbered.

If the morale check was passed, then it counted as a drawn combat, and both sides piled in 6" towards each other

There was no falling back in the movement phase, once you were locked in combat, that was it until one side was wiped out, or failed a morale check and fell back.

The thing you would aim to do, in 3rd, would be to inflict enough casualties to win a combat, but not enough to affect the morale check, and keep them locked in combat so you couldn't be shot. If they failed the morale check they fled 2D6", and you could advance 2d6", you would wipe them out if you beat their score and if you contacted an enemy unit you would count as charging in the next assault phase, BUT the enemy army could shoot you in their shooting phase, including the enemy unit you contacted. or you could consolidate 3" but not into combat.

in 4th they changed that, the sweep would be an initiative check, and then you could consolidate 3" and this could be into contact with fresh enemies, and they couldn't shoot you. so in 4th, you always left at least 4" between your units if you could manage it.

You had so many choices to make, honestly. And while in the current edition, having a unit carve their way through 20 T3 wounds is something almost any assault unit can manage, in 3rd, and 4th, you would need 20 assault marines to kill 20 kroot in one go, and 20 assault marines was about 500 points, base. otherwise, 20 kroot could quite comfortably tarpit elite units for a few rounds.

 Haighus wrote:
Those Boyz also have no access to grenades except on the Nob, who wouldn't benefit anyway with a power klaw. Stikkbommas cost even more and don't have choppas for taking out the heavier-armoured units.

I agree that Kroot are not good offensive melee, on the whole, but they look like good melee screens when deploying via infiltrate into cover. In the context of a Tau army, keeping enemy melee off your important shooting units with a cheap, melee competent screen is valuable.

Cover really is the major variable, doubly so if the cover is forests. Assault grenades were pretty rare in 3rd.

I will admit that it's been some time since I've cracked my 3rd edition codex, but I don't remember assault grenades being an issue for orks. IIRC the Nob having stickbombz granted the effect to the entire unit. This was often times to the ork's benefit, as they were usually slower than their dangerous adversaries (eldar, marines, ect). I also feel that the rules were vague enough that it was often used to allow power claws to strike "at the same time" too, as back then assault grenades simply made everything strike at the same time rather than clarifying it was all at I10.

Anyhoo, while the orks don't need to run the entire fully upgraded blob to tackle more than their weight in kroot, the ability of the orks to take upgrades is part of the point. Throughout most of 40k, melee units have leaned into areas such as speed, damage, durability, and... endurance (basically fearless "we don't leave until you kill all of us" rules). Choppa Boyz had damage and endurance with the Nob. Hormagaunts had speed and endurance with Synapse. Genestealers had speed, damage, and endurance. Banshees had speed and damage. So on and so forth.

Kroot have only ever had speed and that's come from Infiltrate. And while infiltrate was CRAZY strong back then, it still left Kroot lacking. Which isn't to say they were the worst way you could possibly spend points or even worthless; they absolutely had their uses. They just also did a poor job at killing and were liable to turn tail and leg it when a stiff breeze started thinning their numbers.

madtankbloke wrote:

 kurhanik wrote:


Yeah fair, I was for some reason thinking just a full blob of normal kroot with rifles, just hiding them in the jungle and daring the enemy to come and get them. Just annoying enough with all those rifles plinking away, while reasonably safe from ranged fire thanks to their cover saves, and hard to shift via assault unless you have dedicated assault units with grenades. But yeah, that was with me thinking the wrong thing, forgot it was a mix of all three types to get that big.

And yeah, I was thinking 4th with all as a single choice. I actually have zero knowledge on the 3rd edition Tau codex outside of what I've learned in this thread.

Close combat was, different, in 3rd and 4th, and different between 3rd and 4th.

Spoiler:

It could become quite gamey. and in both editions it could be very very difficult to shift large units in cover. in both editions units in cover would strike first unless the attacker had assault grenades or some other special rule that got around it. In 3rd you had to get into B2B to get full attacks, which if as the defender you played your cards right, you could make very difficult, and while you did get supporting attacks if you were in engagement range (2"), you would get 1A per model that wasn't in B2B. Casualties would be removed from engaged models first, and then the rest of the squad, meaning you could wipe a unit out even if models were out of engagement range.

In 4th this changed to engaged models could make their full attacks, but casualties could only be taken from enemy models that were engaged, basically in B2B contact, or within 2" of someone who was. you could essentially spread your unit out to make it impossible to kill the whole unit, and make your opponent waste wounds.
Casualties in both editions were chosen by the owning player, unless you had a character, who could allocate attacks to any model in B2B, so you could punch out special weapons with your characters, and even punch out sergeants if you wanted. In 4th this ability was restricted to independent characters only, and led to the phenomenon of the hidden power fist, who would be the last to die in an assault, even if he was the guy at the pointy end.

Morale was different as well. casualties were used to decide who won the combat, and that alone. the loser took a morale check, and that was based on whether you were above or below half strength and who outnumbered whom. so hypothetically, a 20 strong kroot squad could take 10 casualties, inflict none in return, and still check on their base leadership provided they weren't outnumbered.

If the morale check was passed, then it counted as a drawn combat, and both sides piled in 6" towards each other

There was no falling back in the movement phase, once you were locked in combat, that was it until one side was wiped out, or failed a morale check and fell back.

The thing you would aim to do, in 3rd, would be to inflict enough casualties to win a combat, but not enough to affect the morale check, and keep them locked in combat so you couldn't be shot. If they failed the morale check they fled 2D6", and you could advance 2d6", you would wipe them out if you beat their score and if you contacted an enemy unit you would count as charging in the next assault phase, BUT the enemy army could shoot you in their shooting phase, including the enemy unit you contacted. or you could consolidate 3" but not into combat.

in 4th they changed that, the sweep would be an initiative check, and then you could consolidate 3" and this could be into contact with fresh enemies, and they couldn't shoot you. so in 4th, you always left at least 4" between your units if you could manage it.

You had so many choices to make, honestly. And while in the current edition, having a unit carve their way through 20 T3 wounds is something almost any assault unit can manage, in 3rd, and 4th, you would need 20 assault marines to kill 20 kroot in one go, and 20 assault marines was about 500 points, base. otherwise, 20 kroot could quite comfortably tarpit elite units for a few rounds.

Huh, that is interesting. I am familiar (or at least somewhat familiar, anymore I mix up edition rules too much and need to refresh myself) with 4th's, but it dawns on me that I never actually played 3rd. I forget that sometimes since my armies at the time didn't get 4th edition books - I first started with Daemonhunters with inducted Imperial Guard back during 4th. Only had a start of the army going before university got in the way though so was mostly an inquisitor, some secondhand guardsmen a friend sold me, and some borrowed models back then.

Its also a bit of a case where since I used Guard, my mental maths of what is 'good' tends to be along the lines of 'can guardsmen/stormtroopers deal with this?'.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Those Boyz also have no access to grenades except on the Nob, who wouldn't benefit anyway with a power klaw. Stikkbommas cost even more and don't have choppas for taking out the heavier-armoured units.

I agree that Kroot are not good offensive melee, on the whole, but they look like good melee screens when deploying via infiltrate into cover. In the context of a Tau army, keeping enemy melee off your important shooting units with a cheap, melee competent screen is valuable.

Cover really is the major variable, doubly so if the cover is forests. Assault grenades were pretty rare in 3rd.

I will admit that it's been some time since I've cracked my 3rd edition codex, but I don't remember assault grenades being an issue for orks. IIRC the Nob having stickbombz granted the effect to the entire unit. This was often times to the ork's benefit, as they were usually slower than their dangerous adversaries (eldar, marines, ect). I also feel that the rules were vague enough that it was often used to allow power claws to strike "at the same time" too, as back then assault grenades simply made everything strike at the same time rather than clarifying it was all at I10.

Anyhoo, while the orks don't need to run the entire fully upgraded blob to tackle more than their weight in kroot, the ability of the orks to take upgrades is part of the point. Throughout most of 40k, melee units have leaned into areas such as speed, damage, durability, and... endurance (basically fearless "we don't leave until you kill all of us" rules). Choppa Boyz had damage and endurance with the Nob. Hormagaunts had speed and endurance with Synapse. Genestealers had speed, damage, and endurance. Banshees had speed and damage. So on and so forth.

Kroot have only ever had speed and that's come from Infiltrate. And while infiltrate was CRAZY strong back then, it still left Kroot lacking. Which isn't to say they were the worst way you could possibly spend points or even worthless; they absolutely had their uses. They just also did a poor job at killing and were liable to turn tail and leg it when a stiff breeze started thinning their numbers.

Power fists and klaws definitely didn't benefit from grenades, the main rulebook and Chapter Approved FAQ are both clear on this. This carried through into 4th edition core rules too.

I am less clear on if a single character with grenades confers the benefits onto the squad, but I think not. Mainly because 3rd edition treats characters (incl. unit leaders like Nobs) as separate units in a combat to the rest of the grunts. So the unit of one character would have grenades, and the unit of 29 boyz would not. Note that this does mean the Kroot player being charged could try to focus attacks on the Nob to kill them before they could strike. Not that this was likely given only models in base combat could do it and it averages 9.6 Kroot attacks to kill one Nob without 'eavy armour.

In 4th edition that distinction between squad characters as units went away (it only remained for independent characters), but the wording for assault grenades subtly changed from troops to models. I am pretty sure that limits it to the model using grenades and not the unit. Lorewise, this doesn't make that much sense, but it does from the perspective of game balance when buying grenades for a character was cheaper than for a whole unit.

 Haighus wrote:
I am less clear on if a single character with grenades confers the benefits onto the squad, but I think not.

"Troops armed with frag grenades always fight simultaneously against troops in cover"

Not the clearest of wordings and not improved in the 3e faq/errata, but the orks boyz weren't armed with grenades and so as far as I recall did not benefit any more than they would from the nob carrying krak grenades or similar.

Part of the issue is looking at Kroot in isolation. They’re a part of the Tau army, and so we need to take that into consideration.

For instance, the comparison to Ork Boyz, who are of course part of the Orky army.

Orks tend to have fairly unreliable anti-tank, and in previous editions most Boyz couldn’t even tickle a Rhino. So to pop a transport, you were reliant on other units, such as Tankbustas.

Kroot on the other hand? Use a Broadside to pop the transport, then send in the Kroot to give the former contents a good kicking.

With Infiltrate, they could inhabit an objective or nearby building, only needing to hold out until the typically fast moving Crisis Suits or Devilfish moved up to provide more muscle.

The greatest weakness of Kroot was them missing out on many of the synergies in the Tau army as a whole. If memory serves, that includes basic stuff like Markerlights being closed off to them entirely.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The greatest weakness of Kroot was them missing out on many of the synergies in the Tau army as a whole. If memory serves, that includes basic stuff like Markerlights being closed off to them entirely.

Yeah. I mean I find the whole concept of the thread a bit weird, because I don't think Kroot were ever "bad". The issue is that they were a chaff unit rather than some hammer you built around.
But then I'm not sure "all Choppa Boyz" or "all Hormagaunts" was ever that good either (mass Choppas having a place in 8th). And if you start talking about Genestealers or Banshees (which had their own problems) you are clearly moving up a weight class.

They didn't benefit from synergies - so their damage was never that good. Or, more accurately, was overshadowed. I mean in 9th their potentially maths for the points was excellent - but Crisis Suits that could shoot through walls were just better.

I feel from 3rd Kroot were fine in "deploy up the board and act as an annoying speed bump while the real DPS Tau units add up". Hammerheads and Broadsides, then Riptides etc.

3rd-5th didn't have nearly as much in the way of mechanical synergies (ie explicit buffs); Kroot lost out on markerlights but that was really it. In some editions that didn't even matter since markerlights weren't beneficial to infantry when you had to expend the tokens to get buffs (4th) or weren't usable by infantry at all (3rd).

I wouldn't call Kroot chaff either, as they had more value than as pure speed bumps. If you just wanted speed bumps, you could string out small units of Fire Warriors to do as much shooting as possible before they inevitably got charged. Kroot weren't melee specialists, but they were sufficiently more capable than the rest of the army in melee that they could put up a credible fight and require more than trivial effort to tie up or remove. They weren't there to beat Genestealers, they were there to stop a single unit of Hormagaunts from Sweeping Advance-ing through your whole army, and while they were not fighting in melee they could contribute decent firepower of their own.

That was really their value- being skirmishing generalists in an army that otherwise leaned into firepower and mounted movement. In any other faction they'd be just a basic troops unit with mixed melee/shooting capability, but for Tau that was the closest they got to melee troops and their best bet for addressing that deliberate weak spot.

They also had an unfairly bad rap from the Curious Tau Players who always saw the general lack of close combat oomph as a design flaw, not a design choice.

Kroot and their attachment units were a perfectly reasonable basic combat unit, not least because they were distinctly shootier than most. But the Curious Tau Players always seemed to expect and demand they be able to take on Terminators and other heavies with ease. The bizarre rationale being their one and only unit capable of punching its way out of a wet paper bag should therefore be one of the games’ best HTH units.

Thankfully they were a minority. But terribly vocal with it. And the same sort to somehow give a Dawnblade to every Commander, despite it being a unique item.

Matters weren't helped by GW and members of the studio passing Kroot off as the "close combat elements" rather than the "skirmishers element".

In my experience, Kroot were not particularly effective in 3rd Edition. morganfreeman has explained why comparisons with Ork Boyz aren't really very helpful - a mob of Boyz could clean up a large Kroot unit quite handily. Kroot were (again, in my experience) primarily a speed bump unit that partially addressed the Tau lack of close combat capability.