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How do!

No, not rage bait just to provoke people. But, perhaps, a thread which might provoke some thought and from there discussion.

And for me, it’s a relatively recent thought.

See, Marines of old could happily cart about the sort of weapons you’d normally need a modest crew for. Gun, ammo, spotty gubbins. All lugged around by a single Marine. And in the proper Good Ol’ Days, came with Suspensors for some ready move and fire fun.

But, at the end of the day? That was about it. A Space Marine Plasma Gun performed no differently to one carried by a Guardsman. Or Guardswoman. And their Heavy Weapons soon lost their Suspensors and targetters, becoming pretty bog standard.

Come…was it 8th Ed? Primaris arrived. Their Bolters were bigger and better than everyone else’s. Their jumpy bois had paired, stripped down Heavy Bolters and extra fancy Plasma Guns. Their ersatz Terminators finally cottoned on that Calgar was on to something, and married a rapid firing Bolter to Powerfists (it just took a bit to realise how to switch on the Powerfist). 10th Ed brought more, including extra burny flamers.

And on reflection, background wise? It took them long enough. Surely, being the cream of the crop, extra burly and then with exo-armour-strength, Marines should’ve had superior weapons to Guardsmen all along? Think Plasma Blasters instead of Plasma Guns. Those fancy Primaris Meltaguns instead of boring basic Meltaguns?

Does it not make sense that superior troops should have superior guns, and should’ve done all along?

Absolutely not. One of the nice things about the Fantasy Flight rpgs like Dark Heresy is that regular humans can use marine bolt guns with a penalty. It's a pretty basic principle that a 140lb person can fire your squad machine gun stationary on a bipod, but a 210lb person might do it standing up, like the m60. The main 28mm game of 40k simply doesn't reflect this.

It's much more dramatic for every marine to be built around using a squad support weapon as if it were a PDW than it is for everything to be special.

To me, any guard character like the new Castellan is carrying roughly the same bolt gun as a marine. It just so happens that it's a very impractical weapon for normal infantry operations, like the US Marines found with the xm25, and other militaries have with their versions.

Well they had Bolters as standard issue, which was already an upgrade.

And as mentioned they had Marine-portable versions of the standard array of Heavy Weapons.

Marines also had access to some higher tech wrapons that Guard infantry did not, such as Plasma Cannons, Multimeltas and Grav Cannons.

As for the other weapons, it could be that there were differences between the weapons issued, but those differences were just not relevant in game terms. A Space Marine plasma gun might have been a highly reliable heirloom, or maybe had extra features to aid operation in a vacuum, or whatever, while the Guard one is more mass produced and made with cheaper materials. In lore they could be significantly different, but on-table not enough to distinguish.

There are also advantages to having similar equipment too. Many of a Space Marines fancy abilities are intended for fighting for a long time. Not needing sleep for days, and being able to eat and digest nearly anything are abilities which shine during extended deployments. So what about ammunition resupply? Well, if the armies they fight alongside (and often against), are using the same ammunition, you've just created a wonderful logistical advantage. When the Space Marines are low on ammunition, they get more from the Guard . . . Or raid the supplies of the local PDF forces that are part of the rebellion they were sent to quell. Lascannon batteries, Heavy Bolter ammunition, Flamer Promethium, Frag and Krak grenades, Plasma/Melta charges, and even Bolter ammunition, since a pintle-mounted Storm Bolter is a common item on an IG tank. This is useful.

Primaris equipment winds up being wholly reliant on specialist ammunition with it's own supply chain that would be far more fragile than a force that could simply lift it's required supplies from what is probably the most expansive military force the galaxy has ever seen.

I can’t cite, but I’m pretty sure it’s been established for a while now that Astartes Bolters were larger, and presumably a large calibre (caliber?) than those in the Guard might get their mitts on.

And that will always bug me. Because it makes Astartes feel a bit less special.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I can’t cite, but I’m pretty sure it’s been established for a while now that Astartes Bolters were larger, and presumably a large calibre (caliber?) than those in the Guard might get their mitts on.

And that will always bug me. Because it makes Astartes feel a bit less special.

I believe you're thinking about it the wrong way. Guard don't weild Bolters as standard, and the ammunition that the Space Marines could be getting is the ammunition that's used on tank-mounted Storm Bolters, which serve a similar purpose to a modern day 50cal. Marines are also trained to use it better than all other troops, hence their "Bolter Discipline" in recent years, and their "Rapid Fire" rules in the 90's.

I can. I hope that instead we just stipulate that it doeant confluct and it's in the same source. Dark Heresy gives a penalty to humans firing Marine bolt guns, and it also has weaker bolt guns for humans. These aren't competing ideas.

Then go back to the topic, which is whether it's satisfying. Many marine bolt rounds are 0.75, whisch is somilar to an IRL 12 gauge shotgun round, and they also use 0.70 and even .60 Umbra and Tigris patterns. Reference that ~12 gauge bolt round and you'll see ts already extremely small for something that is explosive, self propelled, and also contains a penetrator. Most IRL equivalents that are penetrating grandes but not self propelled are still twice the diameter. On the criterion of whether it's satisfying, no, the lesser bolt round being actually smaller is not satisfying.


What's satisfying is an unwieldy support weapon looking like a toy, because you've upscale the shooter and kept the equipment the same size.

I, for one, like seeing the difference in equipment. If Guardsmen weapons are mass produced, they *should* be inferior on tabletop to Astartes grade weaponry.

With bolt rifles with now both assault AND heavy, Marines feel flexible in both offense and defence, which really ups that "hyper-capable, high operational tempo" feel that they should have.

I think, ultimately, previous profiles for "standard" Marine weaponry didn't feel overly impressive or unique, perhaps because of it's oversaturation in the game.

It is a function of a D6 system and the legacy of Rogue Trader. But yes, marine weapons should have been better for a host of reasons. Letting IG sarges have them was an error. I would hope if they did a range refresh on the game IG would be stuck with heavy stubbers and all their bolt weapons taken away from infantry and tanks.

primaris weapons are definitely a lot more distinct. an aggressor's flamer fists are much cooler than a guy carrying a heavy flamer around

Zero interest in the new Primaris examples of the weapons.
The Imperial bolter was the imperial bolter for a very long time. SM always had benefits of statlines and special rules to make theirs more effective.

In the new world of faster mini churn, and many kinds of shiny new big-bonus marines, it's is unsurprising that GW wants to sell us a dozen new kinds of bolters for a dozen new kinds of marines. Makes business sense and even some fluff sense in terms of the changes that the introduction of Primaris has brought to the feel of 40k.

So I have no love for the new bolter varieties, but count me unsurprised that GW has done it and that folks who like Primaris also find the various bolter types sensible.

Obviously this is a very subjective topic, but personally I preferred it when there was more overlap between the weaponry and equipment used by Imperial factions. I align closely with Insectum7 on this.

I also agree that the distinctions between Marine and Guard issue weaponry are not something that would normally be enough to feature at 40k game scale on its d6 structure. Further to that, the quality of Marine equipment is a factor in that even their new, teenage soldiers adapting to inhuman growth spurts are great shots on par with highly-trained and/or veteran soldiers from the Imperial Guard, despite spending a lot of time training melee skills to a high degree.

Also a subjective opinion, but I think Aggressors look weird and cartoony and would prefer a Marine holding a heavy flamer I think power fist + gun/flamer is hard to pull off aesthetically and Aggressors and Centurions do not manage it. Heavy armour + jump pack also looks odd to my eye.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!

No, not rage bait just to provoke people. But, perhaps, a thread which might provoke some thought and from there discussion.

And for me, it’s a relatively recent thought.

See, Marines of old could happily cart about the sort of weapons you’d normally need a modest crew for. Gun, ammo, spotty gubbins. All lugged around by a single Marine. And in the proper Good Ol’ Days, came with Suspensors for some ready move and fire fun.

But, at the end of the day? That was about it. A Space Marine Plasma Gun performed no differently to one carried by a Guardsman. Or Guardswoman. And their Heavy Weapons soon lost their Suspensors and targetters, becoming pretty bog standard.

Come…was it 8th Ed? Primaris arrived. Their Bolters were bigger and better than everyone else’s. Their jumpy bois had paired, stripped down Heavy Bolters and extra fancy Plasma Guns. Their ersatz Terminators finally cottoned on that Calgar was on to something, and married a rapid firing Bolter to Powerfists (it just took a bit to realise how to switch on the Powerfist). 10th Ed brought more, including extra burny flamers.

And on reflection, background wise? It took them long enough. Surely, being the cream of the crop, extra burly and then with exo-armour-strength, Marines should’ve had superior weapons to Guardsmen all along? Think Plasma Blasters instead of Plasma Guns. Those fancy Primaris Meltaguns instead of boring basic Meltaguns?

Does it not make sense that superior troops should have superior guns, and should’ve done all along?

Personally I think you’re on to something there and hadn’t thought about it that way. It makes sense that the ultra elite super soldiers would have the best equipment. In the old days of 40K (1st edition) guard carrying anything very fancy like a bolter was rare. The problem came when it became almost standard for guard to have plasma and bolt guns all over the place. Devalued the elite equipment carried by marines.

Primaris stuff resets that and puts marines back as being equipped to a high standard.

It also settles the old argument that things hadn’t moved on a at all since the heresy. Setting marines and the older chaos lot apart. And before anyone kicks off that the setting doesn’t advance technology so it shouldn’t have happened anyway, that’s never been strictly true and every editor marines got new toys their chaos siblings didn’t.

I probably should’ve said in my OP I’m not advocating for how Primaris squads are equippped as such.

Just that the guns carried by Primaris, being superior examples of Imperial Technology feel better suited to Marines.

The Bolt Rifle, especially now with its three settings, is a more fitting weapon than your bog standard Boltgun. Heavy Bolt Pistols, with their presumably larger calibre shells just feel more Astartes than a standard Bolt Pistol, especially in the stripped down, no more than 1,000 each Chapters.

In summary? I’m advocating that, for example, all Marine Meltaguns should be equivalent to those totted by Eradicators - not that they should be solely locked to Eradicators. Because they’re that bit fancier and more powerful, befitting tiny, super elite strike teams that the Astartes, post second founding, are forced to deploy

You don’t even have to have given them fancy schmancy names. Just Astartes Boltgun, Meltagun, Flamer and so on. The addition of a single word explaining why they’re more impressive than standard Guard issue.

Heck, if you’re really against Primaris? It could’ve resolved that too. Cawl was just stockpiling standard Marines at Guilliman’s behest (because there’s nothing to say there can only be 1,000 Chapters, just that Chapters have a relatively set headcount), and Guilliman’s return triggered the setup and widespread adoption of new unit formations. And of course MkX Power Armour and its variants.

A legacy from before Guilliman’s nap when he realised that such limited numbers would require super specialised units to make the most of that incredibly limited resource, allowing Marine forces to do their new job of “we’ll remove the head, Guard will keep kicking the body”.

Andykp wrote:
The problem came when it became almost standard for guard to have plasma and bolt guns all over the place. . . .

Guard having boltguns all over the place is news to me. . .

Didn't their SGTs and Captains used to be able to field Boltguns?

And have I been playing too much boltgun that I want to capitalize BOLTGUN every time I type it?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Didn't their SGTs and Captains used to be able to field Boltguns?

And have I been playing too much boltgun that I want to capitalize BOLTGUN every time I type it?

Yes, still can in some units (images behind spoiler tag):


Edit: just realised I own all of these boltguns except the Castellan... I have the Steel Legion version of the Commissar though, otherwise identical except has a gas mask.

Edit2: some artwork too, for funsies:

Jackson's an illegal model. Jungle Fighter and Cadian sergeants don't get boltguns. Nor do Scions.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Jackson's an illegal model. Jungle Fighter and Cadian sergeants don't get boltguns. Nor do Scions.

Neither do Commissars now. I was responding to a post saying "didn't they used to" and showed a spread of models over 30 years including some recent ones that have rules.

Also, Jackson is only an "illegal model" in the context of current 10th edition 40k it is perfectly legal in other regards, and i'm not expecting a knock on the door by the police for owning two... Edit: plus a characterful model like that would be a good stand in for a Castellan.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Didn't their SGTs and Captains used to be able to field Boltguns?

Sure, but I don't equate a boltgun being a character-only item to "all over the place". It's a special piece of kit for the Guard while being standard issue for SMs.

Or, y'know, just being a sergeant in an Infantry Squad. Or as an officer in a Platoon Command Squad.

Your post was this:

Yes, still can in some units (images behind spoiler tag):

You'll notice, I'm sure, that I didn't comment on every single instance of boltguns in Guard. Because there's a few still in as "legacy" styled units(Infantry Squad and Platoon Command Squad) plus the Death Korps of Krieg squad has them as part of the "main" frames, rather than the smaller frame that seems to have been supplemental items for KT.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

In summary? I’m advocating that, for example, all Marine Meltaguns should be equivalent to those totted by Eradicators - not that they should be solely locked to Eradicators. Because they’re that bit fancier and more powerful, befitting tiny, super elite strike teams that the Astartes, post second founding, are forced to deploy

Amusingly, at least in the index because I didn't buy the codex, an Eradicators melta rifle is just a strictly worse (one shot) Multimelta, with the Heavy keyword and everything. So Marimes already had a superior melta weapon.

You know what's nice though? The Eldar Meltagun on Fire Dragons is finally superior to the Imperial Meltagun.

Also, I'm willing to bet that in most "artwork" it could be argued that is a "Heavy Autogun" a common term thrown about in early 40k fluff. With zero actual distinction from a Stubber, or a Heavy Stubber. Considering an Autogun is a liter full auto-.50cal, I shudder to think what a "Heavy Autogun" is. It's a Bolter.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, I'm willing to bet that in most "artwork" it could be argued that is a "Heavy Autogun" a common term thrown about in early 40k fluff. With zero actual distinction from a Stubber, or a Heavy Stubber. Considering an Autogun is a liter full auto-.50cal, I shudder to think what a "Heavy Autogun" is. It's a Bolter.

What's the source for an autogun being .50cal? My recollection is that an autogun is akin to a standard assault rifle (2nd ed Wargear book). So like, 5.56/7.62 or similar.

I figure a Heavy Stubber is .50cal-ish.

I find it hilarious that despite their "cool" oversized equipment everywhere Primaris only get stubbers on their vehicles.

It's a tangent to the topic but personally it bugs me they've muddled the identity between the factions even more by spreading weapons. Primaris getting stubbers like the IG, Primaris getting Autocannons like CSM, CSM getting assault cannons (chaincannons, but it's a gatling obviously) like the Imperium.

 Insectum7 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, I'm willing to bet that in most "artwork" it could be argued that is a "Heavy Autogun" a common term thrown about in early 40k fluff. With zero actual distinction from a Stubber, or a Heavy Stubber. Considering an Autogun is a liter full auto-.50cal, I shudder to think what a "Heavy Autogun" is. It's a Bolter.

What's the source for an autogun being .50cal? My recollection is that an autogun is akin to a standard assault rifle (2nd ed Wargear book). So like, 5.56/7.62 or similar.

I figure a Heavy Stubber is .50cal-ish.

The only lore example I am aware of for a given calibre of an autogun is the Agripinaa pattern (Imperial Armour VI). This is 8.25mm, and has a muzzle velocity of ~820m/s. The round is described as "oversized", but that is one chunky bullet to come out of an automatic rifle. I guess it is needed for killing Orks.

I am pretty confidant those artwork pieces show boltguns, not autoguns. They look like boltguns and IG rules at the time had Guard characters able to take boltguns, stormbolters, and combi-bolters.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I find it hilarious that despite their "cool" oversized equipment everywhere Primaris only get stubbers on their vehicles.

It's a tangent to the topic but personally it bugs me they've muddled the identity between the factions even more by spreading weapons. Primaris getting stubbers like the IG, Primaris getting Autocannons like CSM, CSM getting assault cannons (chaincannons, but it's a gatling obviously) like the Imperium.

Fully agree here. Stubbers have no place in a marine army.

After the initial splurge of Rogue Trader, the next few editions had a lot of crossover in weapons between armies. An ork bolter was the same as a marine bolter as a guard bolter as a Sisters bolter. Squat, Guard, Eldar lasguns were all the same as well. It had the benefit that pretty much everyone could remember all the relevant weapon stats across the different factions. Of course they made up for that by having a billion different close combat weapons with subtly different grades of effect

The difference in effectiveness on the tabletop came from the to hit roll, and the robustness of the unit wielding them. The abstractions of to hit and the wound roll and armour save just combine together to give an overall likelihood that one unit is able to make the target combat ineffective. In earlier versions the ratio of marines to other army troops was still pretty high.

Come the Primaris, and marine model counts drops, so they need to up their weapon lethality to match.

Primaris are still nowhere near film-marine effectiveness though, so one could opine that their weapons should be bumped further and their numbers dropped. A force of 10 Marines should be equal to any other force, surely

 Flinty wrote:
After the initial splurge of Rogue Trader, the next few editions had a lot of crossover in weapons between armies. An ork bolter was the same as a marine bolter as a guard bolter as a Sisters bolter. Squat, Guard, Eldar lasguns were all the same as well. It had the benefit that pretty much everyone could remember all the relevant weapon stats across the different factions. Of course they made up for that by having a billion different close combat weapons with subtly different grades of effect

The difference in effectiveness on the tabletop came from the to hit roll, and the robustness of the unit wielding them. The abstractions of to hit and the wound roll and armour save just combine together to give an overall likelihood that one unit is able to make the target combat ineffective. In earlier versions the ratio of marines to other army troops was still pretty high.

Come the Primaris, and marine model counts drops, so they need to up their weapon lethality to match.

Primaris are still nowhere near film-marine effectiveness though, so one could opine that their weapons should be bumped further and their numbers dropped. A force of 10 Marines should be equal to any other force, surely

How many Marines equal one Custodian Guard?

This was only a thing as GW continued to mythologise and DBZ-ify marines, necessitating continued retconning of their equipment to match.

The concept of a mortal vs astartes boltgun only started to exist due to the Dark heresy and subseqent RPGs, that went on a ridiculous power fantasy trip making marines stupid.


This wouldn't have been necessary if they didn't feel like they had to keep one upping marines.

I'm more than happy with the notion that marine equipment is just better manufactured, better armoured equivalents of normal imperial stuff.

The boxy design of a bolter being entirely down to the slabs of armour around it to make it as tough to damage as the marine carrying it (who can deal with the weight easily) so they can wade into heavy incoming fire without losing their equipment.

I may be mistaken, but I always chuckle when I think of the the fact that the thunder warriors used an even larger Bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, I'm willing to bet that in most "artwork" it could be argued that is a "Heavy Autogun" a common term thrown about in early 40k fluff. With zero actual distinction from a Stubber, or a Heavy Stubber. Considering an Autogun is a liter full auto-.50cal, I shudder to think what a "Heavy Autogun" is. It's a Bolter.

What's the source for an autogun being .50cal? My recollection is that an autogun is akin to a standard assault rifle (2nd ed Wargear book). So like, 5.56/7.62 or similar.

I figure a Heavy Stubber is .50cal-ish.

Heavy stubber is referred to as a belt fed Heavy machine gun, essentially a .50. In Many of the gaunt books, the Blood pact wield ".point fifties" on tripods, that he then calls "Heavy Stubbers". The Autogun, is a magazine fed lighter version of that. Much like an AR in .50cal. I give you the .50 Beowulf (AMERICUHH) https://www.alexanderarms.com/product-category/50-beowulf/

.50cal ARs have existed since the 90s. Glock came out with the .50GAR, then there were a bunch of .50 pistol ARs, then someone was like, lets go full stupid and make a .50c AR round. It's not even that powerful. The 6.7 hits harder.