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Aside from forge worlds where they reign supreme, that is.

Suppose someone powerful enough to have a relative degree of independence (like a planetary governor, an inquisitor or a rogue trader) decides to engage in blatant tech-heresy, such as reverse-engineering stolen T'au tech, significantly improving upon Imperial tech, or declaring they've gotten the hang of repairing and maintaining their own machines and no longer need tech-priests. Do the Mechanicus have the power to involve other Imperial factions, such as the Imperial Navy or the Space Marines? Or would they rely solely on their own forces? Or would they just impose a tech embargo on the offending party until the heretek is brought to justice?

I guess the root question here is whether tech-heresy is viewed by the High Lords of Terra as a crime against the Imperium of Man on par with Chaos worship, or just a matter of Mechanicus jurisdiction. I'm curious to know if a world that engages in tech-heresy but otherwise respects Holy Terra's laws (pay your tithes, surrender psykers to the Inquisition, root out Chaos cults, don't ally with xenos) would be tolerated by the non-Mechanicus parts of the Imperium.

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As with many similar questions on the limits and reach of the powers of the Imperium, it depends.

A Rogue Trader is unlikely to get in the bad books for messing around with Xenos tech because they have special rules about breaching what is considered acceptable in Imperial society. Trade and diplomacy are encouraged in the ranks of the Rogue Trader as much as adventuring and plundering.

What is and is not "tech heresy" is also very wishy-washy depending on who is doing the accusing. Martian Magi often view the practices of other major Forge Worlds as heretical but won't do anything overt to cause discord.
The Mechanicus is not a monolith but essentially an alliance of planets that all roughly agree that there is a Machine God and that humanity is the bee's knees.

The number of Techpriests who end up working with a Warpsmith or Dark Magus because they knew just that one little secret to the super brilliant project they were working on is beyond silly. Like the rest of the Imperium, its a wonder the whole Mechanicus hasn't collapsed.

The trouble is? The Adeptus Mechanicus are present on every Imperial World to some degree.

Even an Agri-World will have some fully fledged Techpriests to ensure the equipment is maintained.

So I suspect it’s really difficult to do much without someone in their ranks knowing about it.

As for reverse engineering Xenos tech? It is of course possible, as all things ultimately are in the 40K Universe. But outside of the Mechanicus it’s super rare to find anyone who really understands machines in any meaningful way.

Taken together? It probably does go on, but is by nature going to be very rare. Because first you need some understanding of technology, second you’ll need to do it under the Mechanicus’ nose. And if you get caught? You’re done.

SM chapters can get away with it a bit. The Predator Annihilator, for example.

Tech heresy is still heresy. If the local admech don’t feel sufficiently powerful they could tip off the inquisition for a bit of a hand, especially if it’s a governor or someone sufficiently high level to make it worth their while.

I get the feeling that if there are 3 admech in a room, they are moments away from 2 schisms and at least one of them being excommunicated for tech heresy, so the hard it may well be getting them ll to free what that even means.

And without Mechanicum support good luck keeping anything technological running, and meeting your tithe.

Also worth keeping in mind that The Imperium and Adeptus Mechanicus aren’t the same institution.

Like Space Marines, the Ad Mech are autonomous. Part of but separate. Somewhat closer than a coalition, but still ultimately beholden mostly to its own internal hierarchy.

The Ad Mech benefit from the status quo, as it provides them with the raw materials and gives them First Dibs on any STC fragment discovered by any other wing of The Imperium. In turn, it produces the materiel the wider Imperium can’t properly produce itself.

Soooooooooo? If you get caught fiddling in Tech Heresy, however unwittingly? The Ad Mech can deal with you itself (mostly for internal matters) or be tipped off by an Inquisitor who’d take you into custody or off you, handing over whatever naughty thing you were working on over to the Ad Mech.

At least in theory. We know the Blood Angels refuse to share the STC for the Baal Predator, and have done so for millennia with little in the way of proper pushback or sanction. And let’s be honest there’s more than a few Inquisitors that wouldn’t report it up the chain, instead adopting your project as their own.

But I still stand by my argument that in the wider Imperium, the knowledge and opportunity for those outside the Ad Mech, Astartes and Inquisition to even do an accidental tech heresy is rare.

Regarding enforcement: factions within the Ad Mech are willing to and have gone to war over tech heresy before (the Moirae schism comes to mind first). There are plenty of examples of such. Many end at the threatening stage when a fleet from the Basilikon Astra turns up in orbit.

It is extremely factional though, and there is no guarantee that something would be caught before it bears fruit/wipes out the Forge World in an unforseen calamity.

As with any "spirited debate" in a feudal society, it all comes down to how many favors each side can call in. There's an entire network of debts and obligations that hold the whole thing up. And if you need support, you look both to those who owe you, and those who would be willing to have you owe them.

The complications are -

1.) Everyone owes the Ad Mech at least a little
2.) Imperium society has certain carefully delineated areas of concern. Wandering out of your own area and into someone else's area can be seen as a power grab, and is the sort of thing that other groups will be wary of (an awful lot of modern Imperium society is set up just to restrict such things in order to prevent another Horus Heresy). The Ad Mech's very broad area of concern is technology. So if you go poking your nose into that area, then you'd better have some very powerful friends who owe you some very big debts.

There's also the inconsistent madness of the setting to consider.

When it can be tech-heresy to change the scope on your standard issue lasgun; however when we also know that different Imperial Guard regiments will have varied equipment based on their local world, production and so forth.

So on one hand we know that technology cannot be changed, innovated or adjusted; but on the other we know it can.



This doesn't just muddy the water, its a full on tarpit of confusing chaos where two entirely opposing states can be not just allowed, but enforced and defended.


Ultimately a lot of it comes down to control and projection of power. Each different faction within the Imperium (and all its myriad of subfactions within) wants to project its power upon all others. Kept in check only by the local political scene; the divide of power blocks and the fact that everyone else is doing the same. The result is an insane mad dance of military and political power that's constantly in a state of flux over the Imperium as a whole.

In a sense the only thing that stops the Mechanicus rising up and enforcing their will on everyone else; is the wars that constantly plague and threaten the Imperium and force all the different power groups to work together.

I suspect there’s a bell curve to what is and isn’t allowed.

Gunner Private Wee Jock Poo-Pong McPlop, who is Just A Guardsman may not be allow to modify his equipment in any way, shape or form.

But, Gunner Private Joe Pineapples, his regiment’s sharpshooter par excellence may be allowed to swap his scope out for one of his preference - after he’s been taught the correct catechism for doing so.

And what is a catechism or prayer to the Machine Spirit? We don’t really know. Not fully. But again I suspect they’ll vary.

I strongly suspect the most basic ones are akin to “words and movement” type nursery rhymes. A simple, rhyming cant to be spoken to help someone from even the most backwater of worlds do all the right things to keep their Lasgun in tip top operating condition, without them ever having to understand the why.

I’m sure there’s a proper educational term for this sort of thing, but I can’t think what it is.

It's probably not even a bellcurve.

I'm sure that there are many Gunner Private Joe Pineapples who get caught and are punished or even executed for having defiled their equipment.

Perhaps even as nothing more than a simple power play/display when a Magos has reason to join or work with a new Imperial Regiment. They want to stamp their authority down and that's one way they can do it. Because if PRivate Pineapples isn't safe, no one else is safe and thus everyone would quickly remove all tech-heresy from their equipment, no matter how effective it might be*




*Then you either pray that you've got the kind of commissar that allows bending of the rules when you're away from the main army and hides the equipment in supply trucks; or you curse your bad luck forever more.

There’s a bit of a grey area in terms of who might carry authority there.

Strictly speaking, even a High Lord of Terra who happens to be a Techpriest is outside of the Guard chain of command.

The Enginseers are assigned to Regiments to maintain their gear - but I don’t think I’m aware of an instance of them having any actual authority over the Guardsmen.

Of course, damaging or defacing one’s equipment is a crime, the Uplifting Primer confirms as much. But it’s still for Regimental Command and any assigned Officers to enforce that.

And what counts as defacing? Scratching off the Aquila stamp is very different to say, attaching a tribal geegaw to the grip for luck. Installing a home made scope is very different from installing a different one from the Regimental Quartermaster. Adding camouflage to your helmet (reeds, grasses, stuffed duck) could be seen as defacement too.

It wouldn’t surprise me if Enginseers have a regiment by regiment, assignment by assignment detente with Command over where the line is drawn.

Also, Enginseers in the field generally seem to be a bit more... pragmatic than their colleagues remaining in Mechanicus institutions.

An enginseer posting is often seen as a sidelining or insult as it is typically a career dead end. So less theologically-minded or political techpriests are more likely to turn up in practical positions where they may be a bit more accepting of small variations. Plus, the prospect of dying in battle can broaden minds a bit to accept effective alterations.

 Haighus wrote:
Also, Enginseers in the field generally seem to be a bit more... pragmatic than their colleagues remaining in Mechanicus institutions.

I think we see both kinds - the Pragmatic and the Zealots. I think the key is that being in the field has the potential to create a more pragmatic character in whatever role they are in within the Imperium; however its far from a guarantee.

It doesn't help that you've got the Warp itself which creates manifestations and elements close to magic and this in turn creates a lot of confusion. Plus with the way the Imperium approaches technology, even some fairly high ranking members of the Mechanicus will be following designs and using machines that they honestly don't know why or how they work. This can easily reinforce mantra that you must stick to it because if you deviate the machines start failing and because they don't really know or understand the why, the mantra becomes empowered.

You follow the mantra in all things because every time you deviate from it, you get problems. The fact that some mantra might be counter-productive and that there are alternatives, isn't explored because that's going against the mantra and every time you've done it in the past its resulted in problems.


Then with the mechanicus we have to consider how much of their mind is human and how much is machine and how much is a human wanting to be a machine so much that its pretending to be more machine than it is. We've often seen mechanicus display a lack of things like emotions to be closer to the machine, but still let it slip now and then with human behaviours and traits which suggests its in part an act; or that those elements of them are damaged.

A machine follows the orders its given without question; it does as its told and works as a single cog in the greater machine. So even if a mechanicus could logically see a benefit to changing things; they might choose not too because it would go against what it means to be a machine and one small cog in a greater whole.







Another layer of thought - size of the warmachine. Lets say a new lens scope is designed and found to be superior but uses one more glass lens. That means each scope now requires more glass than before and with a production system that's already at maximum capacity in most regions that means additional pressures on glass production and supply. A machine-mind could calculate that such changes could cause a ripple effect; straining supply lines and suddenly you've a shortage of scopes because you can't mobilize enough glass to make the new design fast enough to match the production capacity of the rifles. So its easier to enforce the mantra and stick to the approved design which has functional supply lines and production.

I don't think a tech-priest can get away with executing a guardsman in the field for modifying the scope on their rifle. This is a very minor thing for an outsider to just murder you for, and your entire regiment isn't going to think very highly of it. Commissars have a lot more direct authority as well as a whole lot more overall Imperial ideology devoted to venerating their authority and they still get killed if they're too trigger-happy about their charges failing to serve the Emperor, one of the actual most significant crimes a guardsman can commit.

"Tech-heresy" is obviously mainly political and subjected to local circumstances and the whims and opportunities of any enforcers.

The thunderer siege tank shows the flexibility of the mechanicum on tech-heresy.
Its a field conversion and has no STC and technically they dont even exist in inventory terms. Yet the skittari of mars have aquired them - theres a pict-capt in one of the imperial armour books.

Very itallian. "You can have any law you like as long as its not enforced to hard"

Also has a whiff of "as long as everything is done properly when we are here you wont get punished for doing it wrong when SHTF while we werent here"

So maybe more 'spanish police' than 'italian politican'?...

On stuff like the Thunderer, I guess what helps is that whilst the combination wasn’t previously sanctioned, both the chassis and the gun were separately sanctioned children of the STC.

That such a field modification isn’t always going to be accepted is a further tantalising mystery.

For all we know, the difference could be the Thunderer doesn’t involve any jury rigging - that once studied and meditated upon, it became apparent that “actually you know, this stuff does just slot together - as if we’ve unknowingly recreated an intended STC combination” because there’s no adaptors on wires etc.

The Destroyer Tank Hunter main weapon was hard to produce but the chassis was a modified Leman Russ Alpha chassis - the Thunderer was to address a need for Leman Russ reinforcements which were delayed; the local PDF started mounting lesser weapons to keep the numbers up and just labelled them as leman russes for the general muster. Other weapon patterns exist but have no name and "Thunderer" gets used as a catch-all term for any Destroyer chassis with an adapted main weapon.

The Mechanicum probably knew there aren't any more Heavy Laser Destroyers coming and that the Destroyer modded chassis cant be modded back into being a leman russ, so a non-functional occular sensor is turned toward it (and its new weapon) so nobody complains about the supply disruption. Those chassis' weren't going to get used anyway sooo....


Something else worth considering is that the Mechanicum don't seem to have much of a history of being the enforcers of the law.

People convicted of crimes within the Mechanicums domain would get lobotomised and turned into servitor-drones but that's the punishment end of justice.

The Mechanicum would absolutely be on the intel/reporting side of things too since they would be best placed to adjudicate whether something warranted investigation and prosecution.

Actual enforcement of law may be handled by another entity like the planetary Arbites.

Was that the case for Dalia Cytheria? (the 'Mechanicum' BL book) i don't have access to a copy right now. :[

The one thing i can be sure of is that confiscation of tech-heresy is definitely within the purview of the Mechanicum and i am similarly sure that the only enforcement powers we wield is that of confiscation and reporting of non-conforming individuals; personal security is likely similar to private security officers in the USA where they can respond with deadly force if they are threatened or fired upon, but not like their police officers who would have the right to draw weapons if they are impeded or resisted let alone threatened or shot at.

One final point is that the Schizm on Mars started with the Fabricator-General attempting to punish Koriel Zeth for "Apostasy" which is the only case of Mechanicum law enforcement i can recall off the top of my head.


A brief additional to the effect that my guys, The Ordo Reductor have the right to use any and all technologies regardless of legitimacy status and cannot be punished impeded or impugned for such by any authority in the Imperium. Trying to do so is itself forbidden and grants the offender the 'hereticus' status.

It is highly variable.

Rogue Traders for starters generally can do what they want. If an otherwise loyal and obedient Rogue Trader is doing some unorthodox things, then the most the Mechanicus will be able to do is withhold their support from his endeavors. Of course this will barely be an inconvenience due to the following...

Within the Mechanicus what exactly constitutes Tech Heresy is going to depend on who is asking. The Mechanicus experiments on xeno-tech all the time, even the most orthodox and conservative ones. The more radical elements will go further, integrating it into their designs or performing unsanctioned improvements in general. But such things can be easily hidden behind bureaucratic maneuvering and forgery. When human technology can be just as arcane and unknowable as xeno-tech passing one off as the other is easy unless true experts are involved, and political reasons may make those who do turn a blind eye.

And any Magos who does find himself to have skirted over the line with his experiments or ambitions can easily find employment with the Inquisition or a Rogue Trader who will both shield him from retribution and encourage his work.

The Inquisition is perfectly willing to overlook or even benefit from something minor as tech heresy if it furthers their goals.

Pretty much the only thing that everybody above will not cross the line with in terms of technology is a true AI. Silica Animus is universally agreed to be very bad, even much of the Dark Mechanicus would still look upon it as vile. Besides they have daemons to do the same things.


Heresy is itself somewhat of an overbroad term in 40k too. It can refer to actual religious apostasy and heretical beliefs, but it can also be just an extreme version of some more basic crime. Possessing something without proper authorization could amount to heresy depending on the item in question.

For example, in the FFG RPG there was an item in one of the adventures. A seal which marked the bearer as an emissary of Gorge Vandire, and contained a powerful set of decryption keys giving the user access to any electronic locks that pre-date the Age of Apostasy. Possessing this item is, of course, Heresy for anybody who isn't a member of the Inquisition, who are of course the only organization that such a device could possibly be justified to be kept.

I believe much of it is self-imposed/ Mechanicus prey on superstition for the lay-people. In 2nd Last Chancer's novel "Brains" wanted to look at some xenos weaponry on sale in a Tau "Mos Eisley". One of the other troopers tells him not to, as it'd profane his war gear and makes sign of aquilia. The alien seller gives his opinion that human weapons and Omnissiah are crap, so they have to get out of there before they blow their cover.

I suspect a fair amount of potential tech heresy amongst the Mechanicus is probably stuck in committee

the inventor/rediscoverer/alien tech reinterpreter
has enough local support to make shutting down the work awkward, but the forces who might like it gone are similarly strong so the question, research (and maybe researcher) get punted off for a more senior voice to render judgement, with all the delays of interplanetary (and possibly warp) transit etc

decades later (or more if the more senior voices also disagree) a judgement may come down from above, assuming those on either side of the initial problem are still alive

It’ll all be about power, politics and aristocracy. The imperium is full of currier and cruel rulers that needs to keep general populations complaint.

If you let peasants mess about with tech and learn things then they might get ideas above their station.

But you don’t take away a planetary governors esoteric displacer field recovered on a planet far away by an expeditionary rogue trader because you need them on side. Until it suits you to get rid of them and then you decry them as a xeno fetishist heretic and thrown them into the sun

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I suspect a fair amount of potential tech heresy amongst the Mechanicus is probably stuck in committee

the inventor/rediscoverer/alien tech reinterpreter
has enough local support to make shutting down the work awkward, but the forces who might like it gone are similarly strong so the question, research (and maybe researcher) get punted off for a more senior voice to render judgement, with all the delays of interplanetary (and possibly warp) transit etc

decades later (or more if the more senior voices also disagree) a judgement may come down from above, assuming those on either side of the initial problem are still alive

I’d agree with this.

Some stuff is just Right Out, clearly naughty. Such as trying to stuff Daemons in machines, or using Xeno tech.

Other stuff is….really open to debate. As much as the Mechanicus fear Abominable Intellect, it’s really not clear if they have a set definition of where Machine Spirit ends, and AI begins. I mean, Titans have Machine Spirits of limited, but still entirely independent, action. As do Land Raiders. What we can’t know is whether, left to their own devices, they might be able to develop beyond whatever programming lies underneath. We also know Throne Mechanicus and Titan Machine Spirits absorb traits of previous crew, which can inform and change the current crew/pilot.

Rocking around with a gun of unknown but Probably Not Xenos provenance is another grey area. If it’s super rare, the Mechanicus will claim to it, over your cold dead body if needs be. But that doesn’t mean owning one is otherwise illegal, frowned upon or completely forbidden.

Let’s consider the Van Saar STC. Should the Mechanicus find out about it? It’s not going to stay in Van Saar hands for long. But, given Necromunda is an Imperial, not Mechanicus, world and a major production hub with a tithe to meet, taking it off-world for further study may not be possible, because of the wider web of Imperial politics and mixed status of those involved. The incumbent Plaetary Governor for instance is not without clout - and has fingers in other pies, with his own web of support for Maybe Just Leave Us Be So We Can Meet Our Tithe.

As with a lot of inter-jurisdictional Imperial authority, it may boil down to getting away with whatever you think you can get away with at a given point in time.

And that STC being described as embedded into the Hive, a sod to move and inherent Mechanicus reluctance to damage such a treasure, a simple Smash And Grab seems off the table.

I can only presume that the Van Saar STC is a tightly kept secret much like the Ancients of the Votaan

STCs are the kind of things armies get sent after to recover and even a damaged one would be a very important prize.

I figure of the Mechanicus learned about it they'd move a considerable amount of resources to get it.


This is one of those areas where as a person reading the lore we gain a vastly deeper understanding of the ins and outs of factions than most do within the setting. Much like how most of us have a good grasp of demons and chaos, but many people within the Imperium will have no clue at all. Demons being an actual tangible thing is unthinkable to many. Sure theyv'e heard stories of the horrors Old Bob the retired Guardsman has told ;but they are war stories in far off places and those demons were likely some kind of filthy alien. Plus anyway Bob came home so those aliens got killed off!

If the Ad Mech found out about the Van Saar STC, I reckon they would expend a lot of political capital on formally annexing Necromunda as a forge world. It is already an ancient, heavily industrialised world of huge output. Sometimes the major Adeptus factions do this. The Necromundan nobility would fight it tooth and nail, but they'd risk exposing their own tech heresy if they opened themselves to scrutiny.

It's like if one of the gangs were hiding a Space Marine power suit or ancient relic blade.

Some things are so sacred to certain factions that if they are discovered they are a hyper-focus for them. And in general most other factions (or at least their leaders) are aware of these elements.

You don't stop the Marines going to get a relic; you don't stop the Ad Mech going to get an STC.

You might MOVE such an item so that they take out an enemy of yours; or you might withhold the info until you can get your own assets off world/out of the dangerszone or keep it for political negotiations later.
A power body might manipulate the situation for their own gain, but once the info is out you know the faction will come to claim it.

Oh they’d 100% seize it, and I don’t see The Imperial House lifting a finger to stop that - provided a treaty can be struck with regard to maintaining the tithe and benefits of said STC being kept on Necromunda.

But I guess it depends how mental the discovering Arch-Magos or Magi are. Simply taking possession of the STC and the associated facilities might be Good Enough for one, with a view to a future “it’s our STC now and it’s coming back with us, screw you”. Or you might get a nutter who doesn’t care a jot about the impact of Necromunda losing the benefit of it.

But I can still see it be a fraught process, due to conflicting jurisdiction and levels of overall authority.

Hell, the Governor could simply place a call to Mars directly to overrule any relatively provincial Forgeworld to keep it in place.

Of course, what’s done/agreed Day One doesn’t and wouldn’t dictare the status quo going forward. After all, it only takes a short tithe or two for a Governor’s position to be tenuous. And boy, wouldn’t an offer from your local friendly “you can totally trust us” Adepts to unlock some of their very precious personal stash to tide you over these harsh times, and we only ask for a single, simple thing…


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also worth keeping in mind having a STC Database, file or file fragment in itself isn’t Tech Heresy.

Not turning it over to the Mechanicus….thats where you’re gonna get your head kicked in.

But given the possibly apocryphal tale of Guard Scouts being rewarded with a Planet for finding an intact STC schematic for something as basic as a knife? I can’t see the Ad Mech not offering some kind of mutually beneficial trade. At lest at first.

Yeah, I think witholding an STC makes House Van Saar criminals who have broken the Treaty of Olympus, but not tech heretics. Although using it without proper obeisance to the Cult Mechanicus almost certainly is tech heresy.

Thought whilst “innocence proves nothing”? House Van Saar could plead a certain level of “what am this STC you are speak”.

But either way, I don’t see a route where Van Saar get to keep on keeping on at all. From a gradual folding in of their nobility to the Ad Mech, to the outright British Empire “you, you, you and you, feth off, our toy now, says our Skitarii Legions”? It will become the sole property and pure fire of the Mechanicus.