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Was in my local GW store and tried striking up a conversation with the main manager on duty. Found out most people there really didn't follow fluff/lore. My question was:

Do you think GK are actually SM or something else?

He didn't really know any lore. So I started thinking about it more and coming up with a 4D Ven Diagram on my way home.

Primaris are the 2nd generation to the "First Born" Legio/Adeptus Astartes. Both utilize gene seed provided by a primarch that was made/design using Big E and some of Dr. Astartes' genetic code, making her the Space Marines' "mother" in a way.

I've never found lore that describes GK specifically in gene seed. The closest is only that the founding marines had their original legion gene seed swapped for a GK one. Did Big E have some of her DNA around the lab? Would he want to use her genes? I mean, she proved she was not to be trusted. Could GK be pure Big E gene seed? If that is so then they technically aren't Astartes as they wouldn't have any of her genetic code.



Your thoughts?

Before other people get confused, you're saying:

1. Marines are called astartes because they are named after a figure named Amar Astarte who worked on the space marine project.

2. Most marines are genetically related to a woman named Erda because she is genetically a parwnt to the primarchs and most marines are related to primarchs. Erda is easily conflated with Astarte because they're both women who worked on the transhuman projects.

3. When Malcador had the grey knights created, he didn't use primarchs for their geneseed.

Your suggestion is that grey knights aren't related to Erda, who in your scenario is the same person as Amar Astarte, and they can't be called Astartes.


Yeah, sounds fine.

You're right about even retail guys and some active players not knowing much lore. Amar Astarte and Erda remind me of TV show characters who appear in the pilot or season 1, and then get replaced by a very similar character later on. Usually the actor for one character has to leave, or something else isn't right about them, but they want to use all the scripts they have for that character so they recast and rename the role.


There were probably dozens or hundreds of women who worked on either of those projects though


since autocorrect thinks I'm typing about irl marines with a capital M, if you or a buddy are in the US armed forces you can call the GI Rights hotline 24hrs a day at (877) 447-4487

You correctly assumed the incorrect point I was getting at. Completely combined Erda and AA in my head. My apologies. Forgot who was the one who gave their own female DNA.

The main point I was driving at is Grey Knights aren't Adeptus Astartes, though they are close. All Space Marines (except GK) have a primarch. While not a perfect analogy, your uncle and you are both related to the same (grand)father, but that doesn't make you both his sons.

Anecdotally speaking, I've seen them listed "outside" the normal SM list.

Several months ago when I first visited the store, he didn't know the only way to get a terminator librarian was with the GK combat patrol.

Good guy though. Admittedly I don't have a group to play with. COVID struck just a few months after I got into 40k, so lore is all I've really had to learn and not rules to play the game.

You're working on the assumption that they already aren't Astartes and justifying backward.

The opposite is true. The Grey Knights were created using the same technologies and sciences as the rest of the Legions, the main difference was that their geneseed was created apart from the 20 Legions.

It is suspected that the geneseed is derived from the genetics of the Emperor due to the higher level of power and control that the Grey Knights have on their Psychic abilities.

The genetics of the Emperor and Erda were used to create the Primarchs, not the Astartes. The entire familial relationship of the Astartes is also primarily cultural over genetic, an exercise in bonding to ensure loyalty to both their Primarch and each other.
The Emperor used the terminology to help better control the Primarchs after they were scattered because he couldn't condition them himself.

To add to Gert’s point, it’s also worth remembering that the original Grey Knights (Janus aside) were just regular Astartes from a variety of legions.

(Janus being different as he was imbued with a fragment of Magnus)

Wait, I was always under the misunderstanding that GK Geneseed was from Malcador, who basically created them in the first place. That always fed the rumor that Malcador is the corpse on the throne, and the Big E is still out there, behind the scenes.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, I was always under the misunderstanding that GK Geneseed was from Malcador, who basically created them in the first place. That always fed the rumor that Malcador is the corpse on the throne, and the Big E is still out there, behind the scenes.

Someone needs to step away from the loretubers.

Malcador didn't create the GK geneseed, he found it on the fortress-monastery on Titan after the Emperor sent him there, along with everything else needed for the Grey Knights. Malcador founded the organisation, he did not physically create the marines within it

Charax wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, I was always under the misunderstanding that GK Geneseed was from Malcador, who basically created them in the first place. That always fed the rumor that Malcador is the corpse on the throne, and the Big E is still out there, behind the scenes.

Someone needs to step away from the loretubers.

Malcador didn't create the GK geneseed, he found it on the fortress-monastery on Titan after the Emperor sent him there, along with everything else needed for the Grey Knights. Malcador founded the organisation, he did not physically create the marines within it

Thank you, I think you just pointed out what I meant. He was "tasked" by the E to create the org to fight the demons in the warp, and I thought his DNA was the foundation for the geneseed, being the most powerful (Non-emperor) psyker in existence at that time?

The bit about the big swap was rumor/loretuber drivel. I also recall no one really knows who the gene-father is for the GK? Like, it's obviously not the Emperor.

Charax wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, I was always under the misunderstanding that GK Geneseed was from Malcador, who basically created them in the first place. That always fed the rumor that Malcador is the corpse on the throne, and the Big E is still out there, behind the scenes.

Someone needs to step away from the loretubers.

Malcador didn't create the GK geneseed, he found it on the fortress-monastery on Titan after the Emperor sent him there, along with everything else needed for the Grey Knights. Malcador founded the organisation, he did not physically create the marines within it

Wasn’t the suggestion that the gene seed was the emperors? But that was back in the day when all grey knights were psykers which I don’t think is true anymore????

I think the most interesting story is that the gene seed came from a secret stock of geene seed from the missing legions

Seeing as the geneseed was already on Titan, and nobody knew about Titan, it seems likely the Emperor made it, or at least commissioned it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it contains any of his genetic material. It could be pretty much anything.

The least crazy option to me would be a chimeric blend of all the legions' seeds. Each one would help balance out the flaws of the others and get you as close as possible to a "prime" or blank geneseed. But that's just speculation on my part.

Gert wrote:You're working on the assumption that they already aren't Astartes and justifying backward.

The opposite is true. The Grey Knights were created using the same technologies and sciences as the rest of the Legions, the main difference was that their geneseed was created apart from the 20 Legions.

It is suspected that the geneseed is derived from the genetics of the Emperor due to the higher level of power and control that the Grey Knights have on their Psychic abilities.

The genetics of the Emperor and Erda were used to create the Primarchs, not the Astartes (Errr... You just lost all credibility in science and logic you had.). The entire familial relationship of the Astartes is also primarily cultural over genetic, an exercise in bonding to ensure loyalty to both their Primarch and each other.
The Emperor used the terminology to help better control the Primarchs after they were scattered because he couldn't condition them himself.

I am working on the assumptions of biochemistry (my expertise) and how I'd go about (if I had the knowledge) making super-super-soldier sons that would give me the easiest option of creating super-solder "halfgrandsons".

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Wait, I was always under the misunderstanding that GK Geneseed was from Malcador, who basically created them in the first place. That always fed the rumor that Malcador is the corpse on the throne, and the Big E is still out there, behind the scenes.

***

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Charax wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, I was always under the misunderstanding that GK Geneseed was from Malcador, who basically created them in the first place. That always fed the rumor that Malcador is the corpse on the throne, and the Big E is still out there, behind the scenes.

Someone needs to step away from the loretubers.

Malcador didn't create the GK geneseed, he found it on the fortress-monastery on Titan after the Emperor sent him there, along with everything else needed for the Grey Knights. Malcador founded the organisation, he did not physically create the marines within it

Thank you, I think you just pointed out what I meant. He was "tasked" by the E to create the org to fight the demons in the warp, and I thought his DNA was the foundation for the geneseed, being the most powerful (Non-emperor) psyker in existence at that time?

The bit about the big swap was rumor/loretuber drivel. I also recall no one really knows who the gene-father is for the GK? Like, it's obviously not the Emperor.

***

mrFickle wrote:

Charax wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, I was always under the misunderstanding that GK Geneseed was from Malcador, who basically created them in the first place. That always fed the rumor that Malcador is the corpse on the throne, and the Big E is still out there, behind the scenes.

Someone needs to step away from the loretubers.

Malcador didn't create the GK geneseed, he found it on the fortress-monastery on Titan after the Emperor sent him there, along with everything else needed for the Grey Knights. Malcador founded the organisation, he did not physically create the marines within it

Wasn’t the suggestion that the gene seed was the emperors? But that was back in the day when all grey knights were psykers which I don’t think is true anymore????

I think the most interesting story is that the gene seed came from a secret stock of geene seed from the missing legions

***

Charax wrote:Seeing as the geneseed was already on Titan, and nobody knew about Titan, it seems likely the Emperor made it, or at least commissioned it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it contains any of his genetic material. It could be pretty much anything.

The least crazy option to me would be a chimeric blend of all the legions' seeds. Each one would help balance out the flaws of the others and get you as close as possible to a "prime" or blank geneseed. But that's just speculation on my part.

This sounds way too complicated and unnecessary.

***

I'm trying to come up with a reason Big E needed Erda's genetic info. My only thought would be that he didn't use her genetic code and just his own genetic material when creating The Angel/Primarch 0. Huge likelihood P0 would be able to make geneseed for his own/the only legion. So purish Big E gene code proved to be dangerous, so might his genetic grandsons, hence why he made 20 sons to divide his abilities (I don't remember the reason we're given). However 11 of those 20 legions ended up being busts (even with Erda's genetic code to "balance" the Astartes"), so it's not like Erda's GC was all that useful to "tame" the Primarchs.

While considered heresy to some (remember, most scientific laws/theories now, were likely heresy at one point), 1d6chan has the best, most obvious answer to all of this. Primarch 0 is the geneseed father of the Grey Knights; they share many similarities like a lack of passion for human life, super powerful, not big fans of Chaos, etc. Also, speaking from a scientific/engineering perspective, you'd need your proof of concept before you just decide to make everything in mass. So Big E would want a son/general/geneseed producer he could feel more of an equal with like he is with Valdor and Malcador.

So the geneseed Malcador found waiting on Titan was from P0, as well possibly P0 himself (Malcador was one of the few who knew P0 still existed and where he was stored, not sure Big E even knew he was alive and didn't know Malcador went behind E's back and saved him) in his sarcophagus so the GK could harvest his geneseed. For a while I thought the Terminus Decree was just to release P0, the guy reads like the guy you would release when you're out of options and you just say "F it. Time to go nuclear."

Something that is more of a coincidence I thought of while typing this is that the Grey Knights' armor is left unpainted/unchanged, like the geneseed they use.

 NorthernXY wrote:
I am working on the assumptions of biochemistry (my expertise) and how I'd go about (if I had the knowledge) making super-super-soldier sons that would give me the easiest option of creating super-solder "halfgrandsons".

Geneseed isn't something that could only come from Primarchs though. The point of the Primarchs was to create 20 sources to make it so that the Emperor could rapidly grow the Legions and give them generals. The Emperor didn't need to have a super cool IVF project to make kids, he needed it to make weapons.

I'm trying to come up with a reason Big E needed Erda's genetic info. My only thought would be that he didn't use her genetic code and just his own genetic material when creating The Angel/Primarch 0. Huge likelihood P0 would be able to make geneseed for his own/the only legion. So purish Big E gene code proved to be dangerous, so might his genetic grandsons, hence why he made 20 sons to divide his abilities (I don't remember the reason we're given). However 11 of those 20 legions ended up being busts (even with Erda's genetic code to "balance" the Astartes"), so it's not like Erda's GC was all that useful to "tame" the Primarchs.

He needed Erda's genetics because it's not possible to make human children without the necessary starting points. Erda was one of the Emperor's oldest followers and they worked together on the project so she was the natural choice to be the donor for that portion of the required genetics. The Primarchs aren't clones, they're advanced IFV babies.

1d6chan has the best, most obvious answer to all of this.

Stop. Just stop. At no point ever again should you write or utter these words to anyone ever. 1d4chan is below even the cesspit that is the 40k Wiki and should never be used as a source for anything.

However 11 of those 20 legions ended up being busts (even with Erda's genetic code to "balance" the Astartes"), so it's not like Erda's GC was all that useful to "tame" the Primarchs.

I'm going to nitpick this a little. Genetics probably didn't have a ton to do with most of the traitor legions falling. Just look at all the what-if discussions about how various legions could have remained loyal/how loyalists could easily have gone traitor. Broadly, the traitor primarchs mostly turned traitor because of the crummy circumstances/experiences they were exposed to; not because their genes made them predisposed to being extra evil or what have you.

Magnus probably would have remained loyal if the Emperor hadn't decided to wipe out the Thousand Sons. Angron probably wouldn't have gone traitor if it weren't for the nails. Typhus probably wouldn't have gone traitor if it weren't for the daddy issues. Fulgrim had the sword. Horus had the knife and chaos whispering in his ear. Perturabo was a whiny jerk, but even his treatury was the result of his lived experiences. The twins were, presumably, trying to act in what they thought were the Emperor's best interests by going rogue. We don't know what happened to the Lost and the Damned.

The only primarchs whose falls were heavily telegraphed were Curze and Lorgar. And even Lorgar might not have fallen to chaos if the Emprah hadn't sent him looking for new gods.

Grey Knights are considered to be Space Marines, they are chapter #666.. B/C GW= Subtlety, what's that?

Their origins were kept secret from other what with Malcador, but they undergo the same gen implantation- but also have to be a psyker to combat Daemons with their (current non-)powers. But I'd assume it's the same indoctrination as any other Librarian into a chapter.

I do like the fact they've finally given context to the origin of grey knights- back in 3rd ed. it was like : Sliver guys, hate daemons, go kill. But now Garviel stripping his armor back to dull grey primer makes better sense.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Magnus probably would have remained loyal if the Emperor hadn't decided to wipe out the Thousand Sons.

I think it's been established now that Horus screwed with the orders sent to Leman Russ - I think the original order was "just" to bring Magnus back to Terra.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Typhus probably wouldn't have gone traitor if it weren't for the daddy issues.

Did you mean Mortarion here?

 Wyldhunt wrote:
The only primarchs whose falls were heavily telegraphed were Curze and Lorgar. And even Lorgar might not have fallen to chaos if the Emprah hadn't sent him looking for new gods.

I'm pretty sure Lorgar had been poisoned by local religion (aka, disguised Chaos worship) before he was rediscovered - certainly, Big E should have burned Erebus and Kor Phaeron to the ground if/when he encountered them...

Isn't the greatest of the GK not even an actual GK? Isn't Draigo an actual converted TS found barely alive on Prospero?

Point being, you don't have to be designed as a GK to be a GK. I think it's sorta a Death Watch sort of deal. You can join, and become, but there are very few "pure GK"

Wasn't some part of Magnus'... psychic imprint (soul?) part of the Grey Knight's gene seed?

I seem to recall a blurb that when Magnus first fought the Grey Knights... he recognized a part of himself when battling the Knights.

Or, its possible I'm getting my lore muddled up...

The entire "lore" of the GK is inherently and purposefully obscure, and obfuscated. Sort of like how every bit of lore on Sly Marbo is REDACTED....

They (writers, excluding the one who shall not be named) to be a myth, a ghost story. No one has the true source. Then it's easy to retcon in the future.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't the greatest of the GK not even an actual GK? Isn't Draigo an actual converted TS found barely alive on Prospero?

No that would be Revuel Arvida who became Ianus (or Janus) the first Supreme Grand Master who like the other Grand Masters were former members of the Legiones Astartes, all Psykers in some regard.

Draigo is just a dude.

You're expecting certain posters to do a bare minimum of checking before they post, Gert...

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't the greatest of the GK not even an actual GK? Isn't Draigo an actual converted TS found barely alive on Prospero?

Point being, you don't have to be designed as a GK to be a GK. I think it's sorta a Death Watch sort of deal. You can join, and become, but there are very few "pure GK"

You're thinking of Janus when the Grey Knights were founded. He was given a shard of Magnus and all the new GK got their geneseed replaced with that of Big E.


Why would there be a list of marine chapters? It only shows the Imperium is hiding something big because it would likely read like there is only one chapter without a name.

I'm definitely looking at it more of a phylogenetic tree than you guys.