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How would you feel if someone wanted to field a unit from the 10th ed Index: Space Marines, even though its retconned now and we have C:SM and Legends? We are already allowing Legends, so why not Index units as well?

My issue is, I have a single Heavy Flamer equipped Marine in my Devastator Squad. HFs were still legal in the Index, but have been dropped from the Codex (presumably taking 4 HFs was deemed too good by GW?). And the old index-based dev unit is not listed in legends..

My whole army is fluff driven, and I specifically added the HF to the dev squad in order for the unit to have at least some sort of overwatch capability in the event they get charged by a fast melee unit. One HF IMHO is not cheese

Thoughts? Should be OK since we also allow Legends units, right?

Talk to your opponents-their opinions are what matters, not ours.

That being said! I wouldn't have an issue with it.

 tauist wrote:
How would you feel if someone wanted to field a unit from the 10th ed Index: Space Marines, even though its retconned now and we have C:SM and Legends? We are already allowing Legends, so why not Index units as well?

My issue is, I have a single Heavy Flamer equipped Marine in my Devastator Squad. HFs were still legal in the Index, but have been dropped from the Codex (presumably taking 4 HFs was deemed too good by GW?). And the old index-based dev unit is not listed in legends..

My whole army is fluff driven, and I specifically added the HF to the dev squad in order for the unit to have at least some sort of overwatch capability in the event they get charged by a fast melee unit. One HF IMHO is not cheese

Thoughts? Should be OK since we also allow Legends units, right?

A tourney would not allow it. It would not feel OK for me in a pickup game to use Index units instead of the current Codex ones. I would certainly raise my eyebrow. I also find some conflict between your fluff justification when you also mention tabletop effectiveness in the next breath. Now, a single Heavy Flamer does not make you a try-hard, but I would still find it odd.

You know your own gaming community, though, so you might as well ask them!

 JNAProductions wrote:
Talk to your opponents-their opinions are what matters, not ours.

That being said! I wouldn't have an issue with it.

This.

HF access in marine armies has always been a bit twitchy. BA got them more commonly, but for us basic codex guys it was really only sternguard for guys in power armor. That said, it’s not like they are a rare or forgotten bit of wargear. So giving more units the option to take them never bothered me.

And attitude goes a long way. Splashing one in a dev squad for flavor is a whatever, go ahead kind of thing. Finding some wombo-combo and spamming 3x4 HF dev squads, especially when the interaction between codex/index/legends is being exploited somehow? Pass.

As others have said, talk to your opponent(s), ultimately their opinion(s) are the only ones that matter.

As for my personal opinion, we allow Legends no questions asked in our rather casual gaminggroup, but I think even we would start raising eyebrows if people wanted to mix-match from both the Codex and the (technically defunct) Index.

It doesn't look like it's the intent in your specific case, but I can easily see people consider this gamey and open to abuse if they don't really know their opponent: "Ahh so you prefer the Index-variant of that dataslate/unit eh? Probably just because it's better right?"

standard "we're not the people to ask" disclaimer, but personally, i wouldn't be okay with mixing and matching index and codex units. if you want to play with the index because you prefer that, sure whatever, but mixing and matching just feels like you want to minmax and take whatever is best from each

Reading the responses, I'll change my answer. Because y'all do have good points.

This situation is okay. But this is a SPECIFIC carve out, and not a general rule.

 tauist wrote:
How would you feel if someone wanted to field a unit from the 10th ed Index: Space Marines, even though its retconned now and we have C:SM and Legends? We are already allowing Legends, so why not Index units as well?

My issue is, I have a single Heavy Flamer equipped Marine in my Devastator Squad. HFs were still legal in the Index, but have been dropped from the Codex (presumably taking 4 HFs was deemed too good by GW?). And the old index-based dev unit is not listed in legends..

My whole army is fluff driven, and I specifically added the HF to the dev squad in order for the unit to have at least some sort of overwatch capability in the event they get charged by a fast melee unit. One HF IMHO is not cheese

Thoughts? Should be OK since we also allow Legends units, right?

The sort of folks I play with and the sort of games we play? Your flamer would be fine; we would probably build a narrative around it- like have the character start out as a flamer dude in a regular unit and he could get targeted for training to work with the devastators once he's blooded.

I have equipment issues with sisters too: if a Seraphim becomes a Canoness, or a Palatine, why can't she continue to fight with two pistols? If a Dominion becomes a Canoness, why does she lose Scout?

The only caveat we have is that these things happen in game. So if I want to use the "fluff" defense for an unusual equipment choice, I start with a normal load-out and grow into the new hotness as the story progresses. Maybe you sacrifice a requisition point for the privilige of your unusual load-out. If it's a more powerful variant, you may have to use a battle honour slot.

These kinds of flavorful, fluffy things make a lot of sense in a 500-1000 point Crusade game- especially in a GMed escalation campaign.

 PenitentJake wrote:

 tauist wrote:
How would you feel if someone wanted to field a unit from the 10th ed Index: Space Marines, even though its retconned now and we have C:SM and Legends? We are already allowing Legends, so why not Index units as well?

My issue is, I have a single Heavy Flamer equipped Marine in my Devastator Squad. HFs were still legal in the Index, but have been dropped from the Codex (presumably taking 4 HFs was deemed too good by GW?). And the old index-based dev unit is not listed in legends..

My whole army is fluff driven, and I specifically added the HF to the dev squad in order for the unit to have at least some sort of overwatch capability in the event they get charged by a fast melee unit. One HF IMHO is not cheese

Thoughts? Should be OK since we also allow Legends units, right?

The sort of folks I play with and the sort of games we play? Your flamer would be fine; we would probably build a narrative around it- like have the character start out as a flamer dude in a regular unit and he could get targeted for training to work with the devastators once he's blooded.

I have equipment issues with sisters too: if a Seraphim becomes a Canoness, or a Palatine, why can't she continue to fight with two pistols? If a Dominion becomes a Canoness, why does she lose Scout?

The only caveat we have is that these things happen in game. So if I want to use the "fluff" defense for an unusual equipment choice, I start with a normal load-out and grow into the new hotness as the story progresses. Maybe you sacrifice a requisition point for the privilige of your unusual load-out. If it's a more powerful variant, you may have to use a battle honour slot.

These kinds of flavorful, fluffy things make a lot of sense in a 500-1000 point Crusade game- especially in a GMed escalation campaign.

it feels like whenever questions of gameplay come up, your answer is always to play narrative campaigns. and i'm sure it's a fun time, but i'm not sure how broadly applicable that is to the average player— in this instance, it's an issue of a unit's wargear options, so i don't think "run a campaign where you turn this into a story" is really a great option

My justification for the HF in the Dev squad is strictly rooted in the fluff I have for my IXth. First off, BA have been traditionally known to use Heavy Flamers, secondly, the devastators are not strong in melee as a 5 man squad, and they would use the HF in missions to supress enemy in order to prevent being swamped by a fast horde type enemy. In my personal headcanon, a Devastator loadout of 2 Lascannons, 1 HB and 1 HF is the standard they go with, whenever they embark on a mission which calls for maximum flexibility (Those same Devastators can also suit up and go 100% Gravis as Hvy Interecessors if the mission suits that better, in my headcanon Primaris does not exist, only Gravis Battle Plate). 2 LC 1 HB 1 HF with a sarge armed with PP and PW, hardly minmax cheese now is it? I can assure you, every wargear choice is well considered for maximum flexibility in the field, with every gear choice complementing the whole. As Space Marines should!

All in all, its a pretty standard firstborn list, 750 pts.. 1 Assault Squad, 1 Devastator Squad, Land Speeder, 1 Dreadnought, Terminator Squad, Termie Captain (with Artificer Armour) as my Warlord.. hardly spamming anything really. Probably not even all that effective on the table, but following the long established, basic firstborn fluff AFAIK (well, no tac squad and no transports, but this mission calls for more high efficiency units than chaff)

I'm reading this as your general thought is that you would find mixing codex, legends and index suspicious? Whereas just using index and legends would be fine? The reason I included the codex units was that then I'd at least "try" to get the army to be a bit more "up to date" than just if I relied on the index & legends.. 1 unit in the army was from Legends (Jump Pack Assault Sqd) and 1 unit from Index (Devs), rest was Codex compliant.. If that is your rub, I can go back to using only the index and legends, no problem. Screw the codex altogether then

I am still pissed about the fact 10th edition started off in a way where I had a "legal" Beakie army, where almost all models were recent GW releases (95% of army was bought within the last 24 months from GW), and now we are in a state where I can only field Tacticals, Terminators and Scouts.. just because of using optional wargear they sold me! Wargear which I spent a lot of money on! GRRRRRRRR

With respect, tauist, you're trying too hard (in my opinion).

When you first posed the question, as is, my answer was "Yeah, whatever......"

As the thread has progressed, your justification just now seems like you're trying too hard, so I'd now say no.

Just my 2c, and, as others have said, it's your opponent's opinion that matters. Good luck!

 tauist wrote:
My justification for the HF in the Dev squad is strictly rooted in the fluff I have for my IXth. First off, BA have been traditionally known to use Heavy Flamers, secondly, the devastators are not strong in melee as a 5 man squad, and they would use the HF in missions to supress enemy in order to prevent being swamped by a fast horde type enemy. In my personal headcanon, a Devastator loadout of 2 Lascannons, 1 HB and 1 HF is the standard they go with, whenever they embark on a mission which calls for maximum flexibility (Those same Devastators can also suit up and go 100% Gravis as Hvy Interecessors if the mission suits that better, in my headcanon Primaris does not exist, only Gravis Battle Plate). 2 LC 1 HB 1 HF with a sarge armed with PP and PW, hardly minmax cheese now is it? I can assure you, every wargear choice is well considered for maximum flexibility in the field, with every gear choice complementing the whole. As Space Marines should!

All in all, its a pretty standard firstborn list, 750 pts.. 1 Assault Squad, 1 Devastator Squad, Land Speeder, 1 Dreadnought, Terminator Squad, Termie Captain (with Artificer Armour) as my Warlord.. hardly spamming anything really. Probably not even all that effective on the table, but following the long established, basic firstborn fluff AFAIK (well, no tac squad and no transports, but this mission calls for more high efficiency units than chaff)

I'm reading this as your general thought is that you would find mixing codex, legends and index suspicious? Whereas just using index and legends would be fine? The reason I included the codex units was that then I'd at least "try" to get the army to be a bit more "up to date" than just if I relied on the index & legends.. 1 unit in the army was from Legends (Jump Pack Assault Sqd) and 1 unit from Index (Devs), rest was Codex compliant.. If that is your rub, I can go back to using only the index and legends, no problem. Screw the codex altogether then

You realize that none of us are the target audience you need to convince, right?
So, how do the people you actually play with feel about you using an Index unit?

 tauist wrote:
I am still pissed about the fact 10th edition started off in a way where I had a "legal" Beakie army, where almost all models were recent GW releases (95% of army was bought within the last 24 months from GW), and now we are in a state where I can only field Tacticals, Terminators and Scouts.. just because of using optional wargear they sold me! Wargear which I spent a lot of money on! GRRRRRRRR

Well, other than using that 1 Heavy Flamer you still have a legal army....

 tauist wrote:

I'm reading this as your general thought is that you would find mixing codex, legends and index suspicious? Whereas just using index and legends would be fine? The reason I included the codex units was that then I'd at least "try" to get the army to be a bit more "up to date" than just if I relied on the index & legends.. 1 unit in the army was from Legends (Jump Pack Assault Sqd) and 1 unit from Index (Devs), rest was Codex compliant.. If that is your rub, I can go back to using only the index and legends, no problem. Screw the codex altogether then

You can literally use the rules for Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs for your Assault Marines and *no one* would bat an eye.

If not having one HF in your Devastators is this important for you, I honestly don't know what to say, but again: It's your group you need to ask and convince, not us.

Yeah, it's one of the reasons we switched to One page rules, it's GWs Job to give me rules for my models, if they fail I'll find someone who does that.
So I'd be totally okay with your flamers. I'd use my Plague Marines with Plasmapistols against them .

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:


it feels like whenever questions of gameplay come up, your answer is always to play narrative campaigns. and i'm sure it's a fun time, but i'm not sure how broadly applicable that is to the average player— in this instance, it's an issue of a unit's wargear options, so i don't think "run a campaign where you turn this into a story" is really a great option

This is true; since narrative is the only way I play this game, it could not be otherwise. Even when I'm not talking about specific Crusade mechanics, my responses still always come from a narrative place.

I'm not sure my comments are always applicable to the specific questions a player might ask, but they are always applicable in that they provide an alternative point of view, and an appreciation for a method of play that GW put a lot of time and effort into developing, but that very few Dakkanauts ever explore. Some have good reasons for that, and others don't. I see my role here as pointing out when choosing to play narrative rather than stand-alone 2k matched pick-up games can solve their problems.

I remember in 9th when they limited aircraft and a lot of folks were complaining. Pointing out that the nerf didn't apply to Crusade (since at the time, Crusade wasn't updated as frequently as matched).

 MinscS2 wrote:

 tauist wrote:

I'm reading this as your general thought is that you would find mixing codex, legends and index suspicious? Whereas just using index and legends would be fine? The reason I included the codex units was that then I'd at least "try" to get the army to be a bit more "up to date" than just if I relied on the index & legends.. 1 unit in the army was from Legends (Jump Pack Assault Sqd) and 1 unit from Index (Devs), rest was Codex compliant.. If that is your rub, I can go back to using only the index and legends, no problem. Screw the codex altogether then

You can literally use the rules for Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs for your Assault Marines and *no one* would bat an eye.

If not having one HF in your Devastators is this important for you, I honestly don't know what to say, but again: It's your group you need to ask and convince, not us.

My Assault squad has a meltagun and an Evicerator, so that wont work, since AIWJP can only take up to 2 PPs

whatever, I will not be playing 10th all that much methinks..its back to 2nd edition with these. Maybe I should start building my Cultist army..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stroller wrote:
With respect, tauist, you're trying too hard (in my opinion).

When you first posed the question, as is, my answer was "Yeah, whatever......"

As the thread has progressed, your justification just now seems like you're trying too hard, so I'd now say no.

Just my 2c, and, as others have said, it's your opponent's opinion that matters. Good luck!

ah so using the index rules is now trying too hard, gotcha.. I should just get 4 grav cannons and a thunder hammer sarge like everyone else whos "not trying too hard". Well those loadouts look ridiculous to me and do not exist in older editions of the game.. My army is built with as many editions in mind as possible, these loadouts were still legal some time ago.. I aint building this ish for 3 year cycles.. in fact, my army wont be even fully painted by the time 11th edition ships..

Aand now I just remembered why I originally planned to magnetize my loadouts.. just ordered a hundred 1mm magnets. Kill this thread with fire, its over

So instead of a very complicated mix of index, codex, etc., it seems that the codex and legends do everything you need except for the 1 HF you want to include in a devastator squad. Why not just ask your opponent if you can bring 1 HF in your devastator squad? I mean 99.99% of people will literally not care, I certainly wouldn't. It is not like a HF is some exotic weapon, it is pretty standard, hell I did not even know it wasn't an option anymore. Then you can use the Codex and Legends (I have no problem with Legends either) and not worry about out dated Index issues.

If by agreement, sure.