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I am considering getting into Space Marines by making a Blood Ravens Army but not sure at all about army composition beyond stacking librarians.

What are your thoughts?

Also I can't seem to find a general space marines index for 10th ed either? Did that not get released yet?

Personally, I'm a fan of using mostly Firstborn Marines. A short story in White Dwarf during 8th edition (which was accompanying how to build their Chapter Tactics at the time) indicated that they were highly suspicious of these new-fangled 'Primaris Marines'.

Also.... the SM index went away when their Codex came out over a year ago.

Using Firstborn models at this point is tantamount to asking for your collection to be invalidated within 3 years.

The whole primaris / firstborn issue is a problem. I would like a force that is edition agnostic but also future proof. Squaring that circle is not that hard for most factions. It seems like for SMs you really have to make a choice, either go firstborn or go primaris. The former will work fine for most editions, the latter will probably be the standard for future editions. I like the primaris models a bit better because their proportions are more realistic and less "heroic" (with fat hands and swollen heads), so I might lean more in that direction.

If I get serious I suppose I will have to buy the codex off of ebay then. I would rather use a free index for now though.

Looking at Element Games I can see there are 3 generic librarians, 1 in terminator armour, one in regular armour and one in phobos (whatever that is).

So I think the core could be 1 each of these types of librarian each with an appropriate squad.

1 termie librarian with termi squad
1 regular librarian with a ? squad
1 phobos librarian with a phobos? squad

then at least 1 dreadnought because that is iconic for SMs

Not really a fan of many SM vehicles tho. Most just look slowed. I guess Land Raiders are cool looking though.

What else?

Using Gladius Task Force seems most like the Blood Ravens in the games. There wasn't anything super divergent about them, aside from the double role of Head Librarian/Chapter Master.

Phobos is a sneaky beaky sort of armor configuration used by Vanguard Space Marines, who are essentially bolted on to the 10th Company of most codex-compliant chapters.

As aside, am I the only one that thinks that Magnus the Red is the secret primarch of the Blood Raven's gene-seed? That is why they are heavy with psykers and the inquisition wants their heritage and history kept secret.

The Dawn of War novels came as close as possible to saying that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons successors as possible without actually having Ahriman turn to the camera and state it outright.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The Dawn of War novels came as close as possible to saying that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons successors as possible without actually having Ahriman turn to the camera and state it outright.

I will have to read those. Which came first the Dawn of War novels or the PC game? I guess the novels.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The Dawn of War novels came as close as possible to saying that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons successors as possible without actually having Ahriman turn to the camera and state it outright.

I will have to read those. Which came first the Dawn of War novels or the PC game? I guess the novels.

Don't! They're atrocious.

The original game came first, then the first three novels. Not sure where they overlapped with the expansions release-wise. It's clear that the novelisation of the original game was written before the storyline of the game was complete, as there are some very obvious differences (which actually make more sense than the game).

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The Dawn of War novels came as close as possible to saying that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons successors as possible without actually having Ahriman turn to the camera and state it outright.

I will have to read those. Which came first the Dawn of War novels or the PC game? I guess the novels.

Don't! They're atrocious.

The original game came first, then the first three novels. Not sure where they overlapped with the expansions release-wise. It's clear that the novelisation of the original game was written before the storyline of the game was complete, as there are some very obvious differences (which actually make more sense than the game).

Whoops, I just now bought a copy of the dawn of war omnibus on ebay. I guess I will find out for myself how atrocious they are.

Next question, I don't have the codex for 10th yet, but for those that do: In theory how many librarians can you legally field? And at what point does it not make any sense?

You can field three of any variant (Phobos, regular, Terminator), so currently 9 in total (?).
If it makes sense is a different matter ...

Brickfix wrote:
You can field three of any variant (Phobos, regular, Terminator), so currently 9 in total (?).
If it makes sense is a different matter ...

Ok that is what I expected. I did play 10th once as Eldar a while ago so I know about the up to 3 of each data card except battleline rule. I guess 1 of each kind is plenty.

"beyond stacking librarians."

I see what you did there....

stroller wrote:
"beyond stacking librarians."

I see what you did there....

Some holy relics are "found" not bought.

(full discloser, mostly theory crafting and general advice)

With 10th HQs attach to units and give their squads benefits.

The terminator librarian gives the squad sustained hits. So a firepower boost. Stick him in a terminator squad and use them as a troubleshooter unit.

The basic lib give his squad a 4++ save. You could either stick him in a squad of intercessors, to make them hard to clear off objectives, or a unit that’s more frontloaded for damage like sternguard or hellblasters, so it’s harder to kill the reletively squishy marines. Would probably spring for a full 10 man squad to maximize his aura.

The phobos lib gives stealth and can’t be shot from <12”. So good for protecting units in out of the way spots. I like Infiltrators as a squad, but there are advantages to most phobos units.

The big new dreads are CC/flex/shooty, all should be able to get good work done. Not sure about how point efficient they are.


So 3 libs, a squad for each, and a dread will take you to about 750 points. It will be a little tougher then most marines due to the defensive buffs, but a little light on big crunchy firepower. And the one dread and going to draw all the AV firepower from the other side of the table.

What other aspect of marines do you like? How do you want to fill the rest of your points?

From a practical PoV, if you grab the combat patrol (TDA squad and lib can be found there) it also comes with a captain and infernus squad. You might not need all of them for this list, but would let you play in that game mode.

You might want small units to run around and do stuff, hold objectives. Scouts, 5 man intercessors, that sort of thing.

Maybe double up on the dread, not necessarily the same flavor, but 2 is better then one.

 Nevelon wrote:

What other aspect of marines do you like? How do you want to fill the rest of your points?

More dreads, a tank or two, a speeder, a transport of some type perhaps. [EDIT]Can dreads use drop pods?

I am not sure I really want to play them. I find it way more convenient to get my gaming fix playing video games. I would just paint them, photo them and then flip them on ebay to make room for the next obsession.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

What other aspect of marines do you like? How do you want to fill the rest of your points?

More dreads, a tank or two, a speeder, a transport of some type perhaps. [EDIT]Can dreads use drop pods?

I am not sure I really want to play them. I find it way more convenient to get my gaming fix playing video games. I would just paint them, photo them and then flip them on ebay to make room for the next obsession.

If you are looking for something more as a painting/flip project, you might want to scope out tournament lists and what the “hot” units are.

It’s one thing to put together an army that you enjoy for fun games at the FLGS. For that you want an army that you love. But for sale, it would open up your range of buyers to have some of the powerhouse units in there.

Of course, those can get nerfed into garbage in the next balance pass. Which is why I generally recommend peple build armies they like (tempered by effectiveness). Rules come and go, but cool models have a much longer lifespan.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

What other aspect of marines do you like? How do you want to fill the rest of your points?

More dreads, a tank or two, a speeder, a transport of some type perhaps. [EDIT]Can dreads use drop pods?

I am not sure I really want to play them. I find it way more convenient to get my gaming fix playing video games. I would just paint them, photo them and then flip them on ebay to make room for the next obsession.

Yes, Dreads haver access to Dreadnought Drop Pods. You'll find there 40k rules in the Legends of the Horus Heresy PDF on the Warhammer Community page under the downloads tab.
The also have rules for those same pods in the 30k game.

ccs wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

What other aspect of marines do you like? How do you want to fill the rest of your points?

More dreads, a tank or two, a speeder, a transport of some type perhaps. [EDIT]Can dreads use drop pods?

I am not sure I really want to play them. I find it way more convenient to get my gaming fix playing video games. I would just paint them, photo them and then flip them on ebay to make room for the next obsession.

Yes, Dreads haver access to Dreadnought Drop Pods. You'll find there 40k rules in the Legends of the Horus Heresy PDF on the Warhammer Community page under the downloads tab.
The also have rules for those same pods in the 30k game.

And if you have an issue with Legends, you can always stick them in a Stormraven.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

And if you have an issue with Legends, you can always stick them in a Stormraven.

That will do it.

I just started reading the Blood Ravens omnibus and holy feth is that some garbage tier writing.

Too bad they don’t sell Gabriel Angelos anymore. Maybe build one yourself as a chapter Master and put him in a unit of hammernators for some backflipping goodness?

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Too bad they don’t sell Gabriel Angelos anymore. Maybe build one yourself as a chapter Master and put him in a unit of hammernators for some backflipping goodness?

Just seen him on ebay..

https://ebay.us/SAnyt2

 SolarCross wrote:
I just started reading the Blood Ravens omnibus and holy feth is that some garbage tier writing.

I'm on page 656 of the Blood Ravens Omnibus, and book 2 is a little better than the first one, unless you are squeamish over medical stuff, as they go into super detail over many chapters on how to quickly turn a young guardsmen into a Blood Raven.

Their "hope this doesn't kill him on the operating table" mentality kinda explains the lack of Blood Ravens in the galaxy.... and don't get me started on the Blood Trials (recruiting methods).

PM if you just want spoilers on these books.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
I just started reading the Blood Ravens omnibus and holy feth is that some garbage tier writing.

I'm on page 656 of the Blood Ravens Omnibus, and book 2 is a little better than the first one, unless you are squeamish over medical stuff, as they go into super detail over many chapters on how to quickly turn a young guardsmen into a Blood Raven.

Their "hope this doesn't kill him on the operating table" mentality kinda explains the lack of Blood Ravens in the galaxy.... and don't get me started on the Blood Trials (recruiting methods).

PM if you just want spoilers on these books.

I will persevere, but what makes it worse is that I am alternating reading the Blood Ravens with listening to the Fabius Bile audiobooks. The quality is night and day.