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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/07 20:47:20
Subject: A million worlds
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
Ottawa
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The Imperium allegedly rules over a million settled worlds. An absurd number, even for the 41st Millennium, and especially compared to the roughly equal number of Space Marines, whose 1,000 chapters have on average 1,000 Marines (some have more, some are under-strength).
My assumption has always been that the term "world" is used somewhat loosely, and includes moons, asteroids, and basically any celestial body with at least one settlement on it. If some 10-km-across rock is home to a mining colony of a thousand souls, it might be counted as a world of the Imperium.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/07 20:59:56
Subject: Re:A million worlds
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Mysterious Techpriest
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That includes Deathworlds, Quarantine Worlds, abandoned Archeological sites and whatnot, just because a world is claimed by the Imperium, doesn't mean it has a current human population living there.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/07 21:52:02
Subject: A million worlds
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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I don't think a galaxy spanning empire having 1 million worlds is particularly unrealistic. The galaxy is huge after all. What I find harder to believe is that there are only roughly 1 million Space Marines out there. Considering how big the Imperium is and how numerous its enemies are 1 million Space Marines will barely make an impression.
It's well documented that numbers aren't the 40K lore's strong point. Most 40K fans just live with it, or make up more suitable numbers.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/01/07 21:53:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/07 23:02:38
Subject: A million worlds
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra
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It's estimated that there are at least 100-200 billion planets in the Milky Way.
Having 1 million of them be inhabited after millenia of the Aeldari, Golden Age Humanity, Imperium and a thousand other races colonising and terraforming is peanuts compared to uninhabited worlds.
The issue isn't poor writing on GWs part it's that the human brain isn't built to comprehend numbers that large. Its scientifically sound to have an interstellar empire with a million inhabited worlds in a galaxy with between 100 billion and 400 billion stars, the brain just doesn't like big numbers because it's too much.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2025/01/07 23:07:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/08 01:19:42
Subject: A million worlds
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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Also worth keeping in mind the practicalities of world settling.
40k’s near magic tech aside, the human body evolved here, on Earth. Which means our tolerances are based on those we evolved around here, on Earth.
Gravity, temperature, atmospheric density (or lack thereof), solar radiation levels, available nutrients in the water and food supply etc. And that’s before we consider potential alien pathogens, extremes of weather etc. All factor in to the sort of worlds we could even think about Terraforming or otherwise colonising.
And so despite 1,000,000 being a tiny fraction of 100,000,000,000 may be less silly than it looks at face value, as it likely relates to permanently settled worlds. And vast as The Imperiums human resource is? To settle a new world isn’t a small task. You need a decent sized population for genetic diversity, a good mix of skills and equipment to get it up and running. And given The Imperium expects every world to contribute to the whole? You’re not taking Brave Pioneers, starting with log cabins and progressing from there. You’re talking wholesale population relocation, massive prefabrication projects, so the new world’s industry hits the ground running. Assuming of course it’s not a newly contacted survivor world with at least some kind of global economy (unified or not).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/08 05:16:13
Subject: A million worlds
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
Mexico
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Gert wrote:It's estimated that there are at least 100-200 billion planets in the Milky Way.
I would add another zero there, I have seen estimates into the trillions.
Admittedly the number drops hard into only tens of billions for habitable ones.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/01/08 05:16:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/08 06:48:51
Subject: Re:A million worlds
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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the 100-200 billion number are the STARS in the Milky way.
So depending on how common our 8-9 planets per star layout is (note that nummerous moons of Saturn and Jupiter could also qualify as world size-wise), the number of planets should be in the lower trillions. In Sol for example, all planets and most moons and planetoids seem to be settled at least a little bit. => a million worlds might well mean 50.000-100.000 star systems
Also as others mentioned, several "settled worlds" harbour no more than mining outposts, research stations etc.
Regarding living conditions: several of the worlds mentioned in the Ciaphas Cain books would not really count as livable before human intervention. There were worlds with barely an atmosphere settled by the AdMech, a lot of freezing cold ice balls, desolate deserts etc.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/01/08 06:49:26
~6740 build and painted
769 build and painted
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/08 06:53:19
Subject: A million worlds
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Mysterious Techpriest
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-Guardsman- wrote:The Imperium allegedly rules over a million settled worlds. An absurd number, even for the 41st Millennium, and especially compared to the roughly equal number of Space Marines, whose 1,000 chapters have on average 1,000 Marines (some have more, some are under-strength).
My assumption has always been that the term "world" is used somewhat loosely, and includes moons, asteroids, and basically any celestial body with at least one settlement on it. If some 10-km-across rock is home to a mining colony of a thousand souls, it might be counted as a world of the Imperium.
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Just remember, every star chart could be wrong, or changed later.
Go back to Imperial Armour 1... Ryza was in the Segmentum Solar.
Not anymore.
Always take what you read to be kinda accurate, and open to change.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/08 16:28:47
Subject: A million worlds
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
Ottawa
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Lathe Biosas wrote:That includes Deathworlds, Quarantine Worlds, abandoned Archeological sites and whatnot, just because a world is claimed by the Imperium, doesn't mean it has a current human population living there.
Yeah, okay, I can believe the Imperium has a million worlds if you include uninhabited worlds in systems claimed by the Imperium.
Gert wrote:Having 1 million of them be inhabited after millenia of the Aeldari, Golden Age Humanity, Imperium and a thousand other races colonising and terraforming is peanuts compared to uninhabited worlds.
True. The Dark Age of Technology may also have involved some kind of self-replicating terraforming machines that seeded thousands of planets with life without direct intervention. Now, settling and governing all those worlds... that's another matter.
The issue isn't poor writing on GWs part it's that the human brain isn't built to comprehend numbers that large. Its scientifically sound to have an interstellar empire with a million inhabited worlds in a galaxy with between 100 billion and 400 billion stars, the brain just doesn't like big numbers because it's too much.
Oh, I'm well aware of how vast the galaxy is. The unrealistic part, I suppose, is actually how the Imperium lays claim to most of it rather than like one-tenth of Orion Arm. I assume the density of human-inhabited systems is extremely low, perhaps just one in several hundred or even thousand stars.
Orks and their kin, being hardy and adaptable and having been around much longer, probably control far more worlds within Imperial space than the Imperium does, though most of those worlds are unfit for humans.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/01/08 16:29:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/08 18:25:51
Subject: Re:A million worlds
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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I think it really depends on what you consider "settled".
Given that the Imperium doesn't have problems generating energy you really don't need much to start a colony. When you have figured out how to keep people alive on a spaceship for prolonged periods of time (which includes heating, air recycling, protection against radiation, artificial gravity) which the Imperium has, you can easily slap some habdome in an unlivable planetoid like Pluto or todays Mars etc. and call it a day. It should even be easier as you don't need to account for moving parts.
Settled planet does not mean you livable without technology. See Valhalla for example, its a hive world that's just a frozen iceball
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2025/01/08 18:26:45
~6740 build and painted
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/08 19:01:26
Subject: A million worlds
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
Mexico
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Humanity's claim to the galaxy is repeatedly noted to be a joke, with the Imperium being a thin web of sub-sector clusters built over stable Warp routes, absurdly outnumbered by unexplored space and alien civilizations.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/08 21:07:30
Subject: A million worlds
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra
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-Guardsman- wrote:Oh, I'm well aware of how vast the galaxy is. The unrealistic part, I suppose, is actually how the Imperium lays claim to most of it rather than like one-tenth of Orion Arm. I assume the density of human-inhabited systems is extremely low, perhaps just one in several hundred or even thousand stars.
Orks and their kin, being hardy and adaptable and having been around much longer, probably control far more worlds within Imperial space than the Imperium does, though most of those worlds are unfit for humans..
It's all about humanity's "manifest destiny" ideology. It doesn't matter if 90% of the worlds in the galaxy are uninhabited or uninhabitable, they rightfully belong to humanity because of space racism. The Imperium owning 1 million "inhabited" worlds and claiming the other 200 billion or so is just them calling dibs without having the clout to back it up.
It's also the issue of dealing with space on a flat 2d map when it's not that as well. If you look at Star Trek maps, most will show rough ideas of where the borders of the Federation, Klingons, and other powers meet covering all the areas in between as "X faction space". But with the way space really works it's more intricate than that. Maps are fun but space maps are a pain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/08 21:54:42
Subject: A million worlds
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
Ottawa
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Gert wrote:The Imperium owning 1 million "inhabited" worlds and claiming the other 200 billion or so is just them calling dibs without having the clout to back it up.
Again, still not buying 1 million inhabited worlds unless "worlds" is used very loosely (bodies of any size, including asteroids, that have or once had an Imperial settlement on it -- if only a prison, military base, research station, etc.).
Some fluff mentions planetary classes for tithing purposes. If your world has just a few thousand people, it's unlikely you have to contribute to the Imperial Guard's levies, unless an Administratum data-entry error resulted in 800% of your population being drafted.
It's also the issue of dealing with space on a flat 2d map when it's not that as well. If you look at Star Trek maps, most will show rough ideas of where the borders of the Federation, Klingons, and other powers meet covering all the areas in between as "X faction space". But with the way space really works it's more intricate than that. Maps are fun but space maps are a pain.
As a whole, the galaxy is rather flat though... but I do remember, from a Drukhari codex (I think), a mention of a minor Imperial world that thought itself safe from attack because it was far below the galactic plane.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/08 22:21:25
Subject: Re:A million worlds
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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Again: each system would have several worlds...
According to the wiki the Sol-System for example has:
Mercury
Venus
Earth + Luna
Mars + Phobos
Jupiter + at least 6 moons (some were settled during the HH but destroyed)
Saturn + at least 7 more or less settled moons
Uranus + 3 moons
Neptune + at least one moon
Ceres, Makemake, Pluto, Charon, Styx, Nix, Kerberos, Hydra, Eris
So those are 33+ settled planets in one system alone. So the "million worlds" might add up to not that many systems.
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~6740 build and painted
769 build and painted
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/08 22:28:02
Subject: A million worlds
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Has anyone else realised that some of the newer BL books take the perspective that there is a lot more than a million worlds
The Immortal Emperor’s Legiones Astartes, His Angels of Death – no, that wasn’t right – his Angels of Death, created to protect mankind from threats beyond the stars. A billion, billion worlds; a million, million cultures all compliant – now at war. - Age of Darkness
You see, Jaghatai, here’s the problem – we were made too well. Nothing in the galaxy could stand against us. We learned that we, and only we, held the destiny of a billion worlds in our own hands. - Scars
War was fading away in the Imperium of Mankind. The purposes for which the likes of the Adeptus Astartes had been engineered were dying out. They had done their job. Peace prevailed across a billion worlds. - I Am Slaughter
Nearly all of the souls inhabiting the billion worlds of the Imperium of Man are reliant on the blessings of the Omnissiah in their daily lives. - Rogue Trader: Hostile Acquisitions
The Imperium is vast and amongst it's billions of inhabited worlds there are countless forge worlds, factories[...] - Dark Heresy
'So the Emperor trod these lands, did He?' 'So they claim. 'A billion worlds, and each one says that the Emperor came to them. I guess the Emperor must have been a Navy man, just like us.' - Relentless
I was reassured by Salus’ presence. It was a reminder that the Imperium spanned countless stars, and the world below was but one in the billion, the ork horde nothing more than a terrestrial threat. - Outgunned
Within the chapel, one might have thought they stood inside a church upon any one of billions of hive-worlds across the Imperium. -Heart of Rage
Automatically Appended Next Post:
El Torro wrote:I don't think a galaxy spanning empire having 1 million worlds is particularly unrealistic. The galaxy is huge after all. What I find harder to believe is that there are only roughly 1 million Space Marines out there. Considering how big the Imperium is and how numerous its enemies are 1 million Space Marines will barely make an impression.
It's well documented that numbers aren't the 40K lore's strong point. Most 40K fans just live with it, or make up more suitable numbers.
Wasn't there an alleged black library book which stated there was around 11 million Primaris marines based purely on the fact that there was a Primaris marine who remarked how his primaris service number was up to 8 digits?
Oh, I'm well aware of how vast the galaxy is. The unrealistic part, I suppose, is actually how the Imperium lays claim to most of it rather than like one-tenth of Orion Arm
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The IRL example of this is the Japanese saying that their land is where the sun rises. Or any IRL empire saying el imperio donde nunca se pone el sol
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This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2025/01/08 22:49:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/08 23:22:14
Subject: Re:A million worlds
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Dakka Veteran
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One thing to remember is that a big part of how the Imperium controls its worlds is through space feudalism.
Terra doesn’t actually try and run 1 million worlds, it manages 1 million planetary governors (themselves through sector and sub-sector hierarchies) and gives precisely zero monkeys how said governors run their worlds as long as they pay their taxes and say their prayers.
Ruling one million people is pretty easy, that’s a very small country.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/09 01:48:41
Subject: A million worlds
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra
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-Guardsman- wrote:Again, still not buying 1 million inhabited worlds unless "worlds" is used very loosely (bodies of any size, including asteroids, that have or once had an Imperial settlement on it -- if only a prison, military base, research station, etc.).
Some fluff mentions planetary classes for tithing purposes. If your world has just a few thousand people, it's unlikely you have to contribute to the Imperial Guard's levies, unless an Administratum data-entry error resulted in 800% of your population being drafted.
I don't see why you're quibbling over this so much. We've already got the real-world Milky Way with hundreds of billions of stars, and most will have planetary bodies. Numerous races, from the Old Ones to the Aeldari, Golden Age humanity, and finally the Imperium, have terraformed swathes of the Milky Way in 40k. With the level of technology, both inherited and used by the Imperium, a planet doesn't even actually need to be terraformed to be Earth-like, just mildly habitable and sometimes not even that. The Imperium didn't even settle 90% of the worlds it owns; it absorbed them over 10k years of conquest.
Humans are extremely adaptive even without the high levels of technology we see in the Imperium and as is so often said by the other races in 40k, humanity spreads and multiplies like almost no other race in existence.
There are entire regions of space that suddenly get remembered when they send a distress call or an Explorator Fleet finds them thinking that area of space was undiscovered.
With the way the 40k galaxy is, the Imperium assuming control over a million worlds is a good enough guess when there isn't a feasible way of actually keeping track of an empire billions of light years large.
As a whole, the galaxy is rather flat though... but I do remember, from a Drukhari codex (I think), a mention of a minor Imperial world that thought itself safe from attack because it was far below the galactic plane.
It's more that "control" over space is an illusion.
All the marked worlds are Imperial territories and everything in between is "Imperial Space". Just between Terra and Necromunda in a straight shot line, there will be hundreds of thousands of solar systems, none of which are important beyond having some human life somewhere but they still count as Imperial according to the Imperium.
Do they pay the Tithe? Who knows. Are there humans even still alive on those worlds? Who knows. The Imperium can't do a census on every world every few years across the billions of light years it covers.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/01/09 01:49:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/09 02:37:27
Subject: A million worlds
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot
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The only number you should have a hard time believing is the 1,000,000 Space Marines because that's the one that's ridiculous. A million settled worlds with another billion colonized worlds is very likely given humanity's tech-level and its 30,000 year history of expansion and terraforming. If anything a smaller number would be unrealistic for an empire that spans the entire galaxy.
Tyran wrote:Humanity's claim to the galaxy is repeatedly noted to be a joke, with the Imperium being a thin web of sub-sector clusters built over stable Warp routes, absurdly outnumbered by unexplored space and alien civilizations.
Orks think they control the galaxy because they outnumber everyone. Humans think they control the galaxy because they outnumber everyone except the orks who are stupid and don't count. Eldar think they rightfully control the galaxy because everyone besides them is stupid and doesn't count. Necrons, Tyranids, and daemons have no respect for "The Imperium" either, so that kind of just leaves the Tau? Which is why the Imperium likes to bully them so much probably.
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Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/13 21:29:40
Subject: Re:A million worlds
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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I always thought that the million worlds thing was just a way of saying 'lots of worlds,' not a specific number.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/13 22:25:42
Subject: Re:A million worlds
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The imperium considers a wide range of things 'worlds'. So long as it has humans from the imperium on it, it's an imperial world.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/13 22:26:42
Subject: Re:A million worlds
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2025/01/13 22:29:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/22 08:44:40
Subject: A million worlds
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Stubborn Hammerer
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There is nothing unrealistic with control over a million worlds or more. To better capture the scope of an interstellar empire , I always add "and innumerable voidholms", as in inhabited space stations of every kind. This is a part of the equation that deserves to be spelled out.
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