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I vaguely remember back in the 'old days' (maybe 1st, 2nd, 3rd edition?) Predator tanks had the ability to transport troops (think it was 3? not including vehicle crew)? Does anyone remember when this stopped being a thing?

I remember there was a time troops could ride on tanks, but never when the pred could hold troops. That said, I never owned one until 4-5th ish, so wasn’t paying close attention.

The second edition Datafax for the predator doesn't list any troop transport ability.

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg7U6LwVSwCGPOQC1C-n_Bwj1k0tyRZ3vFg2FLRkV1Fw9zOfBhE9c3YY-bzMhGM6xK9zaBvgXev_WwAQJTrJyatpkvZRMc3j72Rwn84VyoRIjPI4l02-6ghflOf93ThAmdty8XLQLoAZyE/s640/blogger-image-1705689215.jpg

I don't recall what they had in RT. I could check tomorrow if no one comes in with the answer.

Were you perhaps thinking of the Razorback?

 Eilif wrote:
The second edition Datafax for the predator doesn't list any troop transport ability.

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I don't recall what they had in RT. I could check tomorrow if no one comes in with the answer.

Were you perhaps thinking of the Razorback?

No, it was very specific, i remember a red Marine ground vehicle, not a land speeder, not a razorback, not a rhino, it had a transport capacity of three, (what i am fuzzy on, is if this included the crew, because the crew was 2 strong, and i vaguely remember them, meaning the crew, being fieldable if their vehicle was damaged in certain ways). And there was some lore snippit about how the Predator Destructor used to carry small amounts of infantry before they used the space to carry extra ammunition instead.

Now that i think about it, it's also entirely possible that the dismounts i'm thinking of where in actuality the crew.

Predators had no transport capability by the end of 1st edition (Vehicle Manual 1992). Let me pull up the first WD article talking about them..

Found it. WD issue 112, page 43:

"The Predator will usually carry a crew of four (driver and three gunners) but, like the Rhino and Land Raider, its auto-
systems enable it to function without a crew if necessary. The crew are wired into their machine and are unable to leave the Predator during the battle - it takes too long to unstrap them from their tight harnesses and unplug them from the snaking pipes and cables that engulf them. Some crewmen, as a punishment for insubordination, are hard-wired into their vehicles and are only released after an
exceptional show of valour.

Due to the internal space taken up by crewmen, weaponry and ammunition, the Predator has only a limited amount of space remaining for passengers. There is not enough room to carry squads of Marines or Guardsmen inside a Predator, but up to five passengers may be carried if necessary."

So while I thought you were mistaken at first, there is some mention of transport capacity.. This was probably retconned soon enough however, since transport capability went to zero by 1992

It was mentioned rather long as a core of the background was that Marines are not allowed to have "tanks" but only transports
for the same reason they don't have fighter jets and so on because everything they use must have a theoretical transport capacity by the laws of the Imperium after the Heresy to prevent them from getting too strong

that was a core part of why the vehicles of Space Marine were designed the way they were

yet they never had that in the game rules as the capacity was for background reasons only why the Rhino chassis was used and not an actual gaming purpose

 kodos wrote:
It was mentioned rather long as a core of the background was that Marines are not allowed to have "tanks" but only transports
for the same reason they don't have fighter jets and so on because everything they use must have a theoretical transport capacity by the laws of the Imperium after the Heresy to prevent them from getting too strong

that was a core part of why the vehicles of Space Marine were designed the way they were

yet they never had that in the game rules as the capacity was for background reasons only why the Rhino chassis was used and not an actual gaming purpose

Interesting.. Do you have a source for such mentions? First time I ever hear about it..

 tauist wrote:

 kodos wrote:
It was mentioned rather long as a core of the background was that Marines are not allowed to have "tanks" but only transports
for the same reason they don't have fighter jets and so on because everything they use must have a theoretical transport capacity by the laws of the Imperium after the Heresy to prevent them from getting too strong

that was a core part of why the vehicles of Space Marine were designed the way they were

yet they never had that in the game rules as the capacity was for background reasons only why the Rhino chassis was used and not an actual gaming purpose

Interesting.. Do you have a source for such mentions? First time I ever hear about it..

I think they're misremembering the argument between Corax and the Admiralty regarding Marine vessels


"When Gulliman set about the long and arduous
task of preparing Codex Astartes, the role of
space vessels amongst the Adeptus Astartes
proved a particular sticking. For an Imperium
still reeling from internecine Heresy that almost
tore it apart, the division of power was a vitally
important consideration. Of the most extreme
options on offer, it was ventured by some that
the Space Marines should be denied any vessels
at all, barring intra-system transports for
movement between homeworlds and attendant
moons. Corax, amongst others, protested
strongly that in fact had the Space Marines been
better equipped with fleets of their own his own
Legion might not have been so horrendously
decimated when trapped on Istvaan V by Horus
and the newly revealed traitors. Instead, a
compromise was reached which limited the
Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was
that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the
smallest of vessels would be permitted to act
exclusively as gunships, with the larger
battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining
predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the
Space Marines would never present a threat to
the Imperial Navy proper. Inevitably, the
wrangling over interpretation of a ship’s
‘primary role’ leads to some chapters
possessing rather more versatile fleets than the
Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with."

I recall that in the Index Astartes WD article about Predators (back in the day) that it was stated that Predators initially had the ability to transport up to 2 marines in addition to the crew. Sort of like the IRL Merkava I guess. I started in 2nd and as far I remember the Predator never had a transport capability.

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:

 tauist wrote:

 kodos wrote:
It was mentioned rather long as a core of the background was that Marines are not allowed to have "tanks" but only transports
for the same reason they don't have fighter jets and so on because everything they use must have a theoretical transport capacity by the laws of the Imperium after the Heresy to prevent them from getting too strong

that was a core part of why the vehicles of Space Marine were designed the way they were

yet they never had that in the game rules as the capacity was for background reasons only why the Rhino chassis was used and not an actual gaming purpose

Interesting.. Do you have a source for such mentions? First time I ever hear about it..

I think they're misremembering the argument between Corax and the Admiralty regarding Marine vessels


"When Gulliman set about the long and arduous
task of preparing Codex Astartes, the role of
space vessels amongst the Adeptus Astartes
proved a particular sticking. For an Imperium
still reeling from internecine Heresy that almost
tore it apart, the division of power was a vitally
important consideration. Of the most extreme
options on offer, it was ventured by some that
the Space Marines should be denied any vessels
at all, barring intra-system transports for
movement between homeworlds and attendant
moons. Corax, amongst others, protested
strongly that in fact had the Space Marines been
better equipped with fleets of their own his own
Legion might not have been so horrendously
decimated when trapped on Istvaan V by Horus
and the newly revealed traitors. Instead, a
compromise was reached which limited the
Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was
that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the
smallest of vessels would be permitted to act
exclusively as gunships, with the larger
battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining
predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the
Space Marines would never present a threat to
the Imperial Navy proper. Inevitably, the
wrangling over interpretation of a ship’s
‘primary role’ leads to some chapters
possessing rather more versatile fleets than the
Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with."

I see. Limiting Astartes access to serious void warfare potential would sound like a sensible idea indeed. But this mentions nothing about ground vehicles.

The introduction of the Codex and the Second Founding kind of made which vehicles Marines operate moot.

When you’re limited to a command of around 1,000 Astartes, you’re necessarily (and entirely by design) much more limited in how you can fight your battles.

Where once a Legion could deploy companies of armoured fighting vehicles of all stripes? Now you might only have a dozen or so in your armoury. So whilst your tanks remain individually competent, as a single force you’re ill suited to massed tank battles.

You also now had more limited resources to maintain your vehicle pool. With the general adoption of modern Astartes tactics (surgical strikes, get in, wreck everything, get out, let the Guard do the sweeping up whilst you move on to the next target or war zone), speed is the key.

Predators are pretty swift as Battle Tanks go, and whilst not exactly match for a heavy or super heavy battle tank, they’re well armed for their size. Combine its heavier than you might expect arms, comparative speed, all the technological bells and whistles and the skill of its post human crew, and you’ve something pretty well suited to your new, necessary modus operandi.

In theory, there’s nothing preventing any Chapter with relic tanks fielding them exclusively, or should the means present themself, making new ones. But it’s still the old supply and demand equation. Whilst still all comparative, a Chapter just doesn’t have anything like the resources of a Legion. Just as Chaos Marines tend to ditch more finnickity and temperamental, maintenance intensive kit in favour of more robust and reliable kit? So have loyalists adapted to their new, relatively impoverished situation, just to a lesser degree of necessity than Renegade or Chaos forces.

Hence prior to Cawl, we saw Chapters focus their efforts on the ubiquitous and rugged Rhino chassis. Rhino, Razorback, Predator, Whirlwind, Vindicator, those AA ones? All the same base Worky Bitz. So if an engine needs overhauling, a track replacing? It’s a common, pretty easily sustained pool of replacement parts. Whereas trying to maintain Rhino, Landraider, Kratos, Sabre, Sicaran and so on means different parts lists. Not impossible, but not as easy to maintain stock of as just Rhino and Landraider.

Post Cawl? As I’ve argued before, we don’t really know at exactly which point in the past 10,000 years he had the Primaris and their equipment sorted out. But however long it is? Those initial creations weren’t subject to attrition, and so the stockpile only ever grew until Guilliman’s return - and came from a fully functional production line, which we’ve no reason to believe was ever switched off, massively aiding Chapters in maintaining the new vehicles. And again, we’ve seen them stick to just a couple of chassis with largely shared components for each class, maintaining the simplified infrastructure.

 tauist wrote:

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:

 tauist wrote:

 kodos wrote:
It was mentioned rather long as a core of the background was that Marines are not allowed to have "tanks" but only transports
for the same reason they don't have fighter jets and so on because everything they use must have a theoretical transport capacity by the laws of the Imperium after the Heresy to prevent them from getting too strong

that was a core part of why the vehicles of Space Marine were designed the way they were

yet they never had that in the game rules as the capacity was for background reasons only why the Rhino chassis was used and not an actual gaming purpose

Interesting.. Do you have a source for such mentions? First time I ever hear about it..

I think they're misremembering the argument between Corax and the Admiralty regarding Marine vessels


"When Gulliman set about the long and arduous
task of preparing Codex Astartes, the role of
space vessels amongst the Adeptus Astartes
proved a particular sticking. For an Imperium
still reeling from internecine Heresy that almost
tore it apart, the division of power was a vitally
important consideration. Of the most extreme
options on offer, it was ventured by some that
the Space Marines should be denied any vessels
at all, barring intra-system transports for
movement between homeworlds and attendant
moons. Corax, amongst others, protested
strongly that in fact had the Space Marines been
better equipped with fleets of their own his own
Legion might not have been so horrendously
decimated when trapped on Istvaan V by Horus
and the newly revealed traitors. Instead, a
compromise was reached which limited the
Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was
that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the
smallest of vessels would be permitted to act
exclusively as gunships, with the larger
battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining
predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the
Space Marines would never present a threat to
the Imperial Navy proper. Inevitably, the
wrangling over interpretation of a ship’s
‘primary role’ leads to some chapters
possessing rather more versatile fleets than the
Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with."

I see. Limiting Astartes access to serious void warfare potential would sound like a sensible idea indeed. But this mentions nothing about ground vehicles.

That's my point, the ground vehicle argument doesn't exist as far as i can tell.

I am not sure where it was written, the older Codex are not heavy with fluff, so it might have been one of the first Imperial Armour or the 4th Edi WD articles

Looking up now the online wikis I found 2 sources saying either the transport capacity was removed during the Great Crusader when using side weapons to carry ammunition the other saying the Predator never had transport capacity over the Rhino in favour of armour and weapons
But both saying the Predator wasn't changed from the dark age of technology outside the SW adding turret lasers

But the argument for vehicles falls flat anyway as whatever the latest codex says, retcons anything that was written before anyway
And the latest Codex I have (just looked it up) states that the predator never had transport capacity at all

I always headcanoned it that the Rhino chassis was just light enough to be strapped under (or maybe in) a Thunderhawk, even when it was upgunned, so at least the lads had SOME armour support. Plus "single type operation" simplifies maintenance and spares for a force that might well be on a long patrol far from home, usually in the thick of things and is invariably on Quick Reaction Alert.