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Okay, seriously: why doesn't the Imperium just fire the Life-Eater Virus at Hive Ships (other than, 'because plot')? I mean, that feels like a pretty good weapon to use against Tyranids, and using that kind of weapon early and often is right out of the Evil Overlord playbook. If they're willing to pre-emptively Exterminatus a planet just to deny the hive biomass, it would seem that whenever they're losing a battle they should just virus bomb it rather than try to evacuate.

Because it is one-use weapon against tyranids. First of all If Hive Mind will be able to send information about virus to other fleets before being anihilated every fleet will evolve immunity to that weapon. It is biological weapon, and using biological weapon against enemy that can adapt and evolve that fast is risky. Also, there is a risk that tyranids can not only mutate into being resistant to this weapon, but based on experience sent by destroyed fleet they can make they own weapon of that sort.

But that's just my opinion

I believe the nids are supposed to adapt to it, as they adapt to pretty much anything. So in a way you coul say that systematical deployment of life eater viruses could end up rendering it ineffective.

Which, mind you, questions why should bolters and las rifle still work at this point, but nevermind. Coolness demands it works, and they try fiery evacuations lol.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I believe the nids are supposed to adapt to it, as they adapt to pretty much anything. So in a way you coul say that systematical deployment of life eater viruses could end up rendering it ineffective.

Which, mind you, questions why should bolters and las rifle still work at this point, but nevermind. Coolness demands it works, and they try fiery evacuations lol.

Bolters and las rifle are not bio weapons, so I think nids can't just adapt to it. If they were able to adapt immune to any physical damage they would be immortal. Looks like tyranids are adapting to normal weapons in their own way. On example, I always thought that Tyranid Warriors are their answer to Space Marines, for me it looks like they have adapted to new danger by creating strongest stuff especially to deal with Astartes

"Why doesn't the hive mind just drop nasty organisms the size of flies on every planet in their trillions, are they stupid?" "Why don't they just farm the enormous amounts water and materials that exist in zero g top grow biomass?" Rule of cool/having-a-conventional-war beats rule of common sense...

 Magos Nintendus wrote:
Bolters and las rifle are not bio weapons, so I think nids can't just adapt to it. If they were able to adapt immune to any physical damage they would be immortal. Looks like tyranids are adapting to normal weapons in their own way. On example, I always thought that Tyranid Warriors are their answer to Space Marines, for me it looks like they have adapted to new danger by creating strongest stuff especially to deal with Astartes

In case you didn't know, this is actually an in universe theory.

Tyrant Guard supposedly contains Marine DNA, Biovores incorporated Orks (the old model had a face and pose closely resembling Greenskins) and the Zoantrope evolved from Eldar. Tidbits like this were scattered around older codizes.

 a_typical_hero wrote:

 Magos Nintendus wrote:
Bolters and las rifle are not bio weapons, so I think nids can't just adapt to it. If they were able to adapt immune to any physical damage they would be immortal. Looks like tyranids are adapting to normal weapons in their own way. On example, I always thought that Tyranid Warriors are their answer to Space Marines, for me it looks like they have adapted to new danger by creating strongest stuff especially to deal with Astartes

In case you didn't know, this is actually an in universe theory.

Tyrant Guard supposedly contains Marine DNA, Biovores incorporated Orks (the old model had a face and pose closely resembling Greenskins) and the Zoantrope evolved from Eldar. Tidbits like this were scattered around older codizes.

Yeah, I had something like that in mind but I wasn't sure If I have seen it somewhere or it just came into my mind

 Magos Nintendus wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I believe the nids are supposed to adapt to it, as they adapt to pretty much anything. So in a way you coul say that systematical deployment of life eater viruses could end up rendering it ineffective.

Which, mind you, questions why should bolters and las rifle still work at this point, but nevermind. Coolness demands it works, and they try fiery evacuations lol.

Bolters and las rifle are not bio weapons, so I think nids can't just adapt to it. If they were able to adapt immune to any physical damage they would be immortal. Looks like tyranids are adapting to normal weapons in their own way. On example, I always thought that Tyranid Warriors are their answer to Space Marines, for me it looks like they have adapted to new danger by creating strongest stuff especially to deal with Astartes

I'd say they totally can because in a sense, it is the armour vs offense race, but with the nids playing the armour game dialed up to eleven as they all tech they have is purely biological with the species they spawn born with it. So making better chitine that stops bolts, or the loxatol anti las substance that renders them extremly reisstant to las weapons. Maybe even strap both on every warrior should be feasible considering the stupid degree of flexibility they've got. Sure that'd be expensive but the whole point of the nids is to be kind of virtually unlimited in ressources to be scary. And the point of the Imperium has long been that it just can't seem to keep upgrading its tech.

But let's face it, that wouldn't be funny. The topic of nids sitting oddly between overly overpowered and nonetheless getting owed too easily in contradiction with their lore is an old one I believe.

Adaptation takes resources. So they probably can adapt to bolters and las weapons by making their armour more impact resistant or whatever defends against las rifles. But to do that across all their bio forms will take too much resource so you could say that since first encountering laser weapons the armour has adapted but not become impervious on the termagaunt (sorry if I spelled that wrong)

But on the larger creatures the carapaces have probably strengthened to the point where las rifles won’t do any damage

 RustyNumber wrote:
"Why doesn't the hive mind just drop nasty organisms the size of flies on every planet in their trillions, are they stupid?" "Why don't they just farm the enormous amounts water and materials that exist in zero g top grow biomass?" Rule of cool/having-a-conventional-war beats rule of common sense...

I maintain that those two elements are based on two key parts

1) Tyranids are masters of biology and DNA, but only within limitations. Ergo they can change a LOT but not 100% everything about themselves and how they function. Think of them like a living creature that's hyper adaptive, but it still can't change what creature it is underneath. That's why even when they mix in DNA from other races they still have 3 primary limbs displayed on the body; similar armour designs and structures and so forth.

2) I maintain that Tyranids have different habits based on different phases. Right now they are in a pacification phase where their primary focus is to destroy threats within the galaxy to them and deny those threats from resources. So it makes sense to hit worlds that are habited and then strip habitation from those worlds. They don't need to touch gas giants and so forth because other races aren't living on them; aren't thriving from them.

Once pacified then I'd expect Tyranids to feed on bigger sources in a grazing pattern and then take everything else. Basically they don't want to "waste" the biggest and best sources of materials in war.

Well, as ever with Exterminatus type stuff, there’s more than one virus in play.

The downside of such viruses is that, by design, they’re short lived. There to do the job, then politely die out themselves in turn, thus allowing the world to be repopulated with comparatively little damage done to infrastructure.

Against the Tyranids? Could be they just don’t work in a vacuum, the virus itself perhaps being vulnerable. So ship to, erm, big gribbly beastie ship, may not be efficient. So you’re looking at boarding actions. Risky at the best of times, and if Advanced Space Crusade is to be relied upon, once in its innards, just go squish its major organs and it’s probably gonna curl up and die.

It also does nothing with the resulting soup. So yes, you’ve just swatted a Hive Ship, but if you don’t have the toys to take out the rest? The Hive Fleet doesn’t lose much, as where it had ship(s), if you’re driven off it gains some tasty nutrient gruel.

Compare to using it planetside. You first send down the voracious virus to kill and rapidly decompose all organic matter. Then with a Lance strike or torpedo or what have you, you chuck a match into the atmosphere, destroying everything else. That would be effective against Tyranids, as whilst an extremely costly strategy (Kryptmaaaaaaaaaaan!), you are at least denying it a chance to replenish biomass. Without torching it all, you’ve just pre-chewed the food and, theoretically at least I suppose, denied it new and novel DNA, as it’s just the old primordial soup with no crunchy cordon bleu genetic croutons to savour and get the recipe for.

Also in relation to the opening post there's one story about Nurgle and Tyranids fighting it off in a biowar where basically it is a virus war and the Tyranids win. That they can biologically go toe-to-toe with Nurgle based viruses which can draw on the warp and defy normal natural systems means that even an Imperial Virus would be overcome by Tyranids.

There's also another issue alongside that - loss of worlds. Like using Exterminatus on worlds; using a Virus Bomb is similarly wiping the world from Imperial use entirely to defeat the Tyranids. As such its at best a draw rather than a win.
whilst the Imperium can do horrific things its got limits; it can't just obliterate every world without eventually getting local and then major uprisings and pushback.

Furthermore it only maintains a stalemate with the Tyranids and because the Tyranid total numbers are unknown its also not viable since you've no idea if you are actually wiping out major forces or just vanguard or exploratory forces. So you could blast a whole Hive Fleet on every world it hits and wipe them out; each time losing worlds at the same time. Then find out that the next Hive Fleet that appears is even bigger and even worse and you've just sacrificed a huge number of worlds. So the Imperium gets weaker each time.


So a viable long term strategy has to have the Imperium not lose worlds.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Okay, seriously: why doesn't the Imperium just fire the Life-Eater Virus at Hive Ships (other than, 'because plot')? I mean, that feels like a pretty good weapon to use against Tyranids, and using that kind of weapon early and often is right out of the Evil Overlord playbook. If they're willing to pre-emptively Exterminatus a planet just to deny the hive biomass, it would seem that whenever they're losing a battle they should just virus bomb it rather than try to evacuate.

Because the Life-Eater virus does nothing to Hive Ships and you just gave them ideas.

For a proper counter? I think a reliable way to track and target a Hive Fleet whilst it’s between systems, and largely hibernating, might be a not completely insane method.

Of course, that would likely mean non-Warp based FTL. Which as hindrances go in 40K is a pretty major one.

But, if you could sort that? You can do essentially Cavalry Raids on even the biggest fleets, catching them whilst most (probably not all, not for long in the face of such attacks for sure) are napping and just erode, erode, erode. The more damage you can do in deep space, the more it needs to draw on its existing stock of biomass, and again at least theoretically, the fewer Bioships you’ll need to squish once it arrives in a system.

And, if you’re swift and competent enough in your timing and knowing when to withdraw? You might be able to inflict losses with no retaliation at all. So the first few sorties (or few dozen, depends on the Hive Fleet’s composition and disposition) focus on the Escort type beasties, and any Nautili present to stop them using the Warp, hopefully leaving the really big and dangerous ones exposed later down the line, or forcing it to spawn more escort gribblies.

The Dark Eldar lost a fleet doing that, it is hard to estimate how fast Tyranid ships wake up before they have actually woken up and eating your face.

The problem is if you hit Hive Fleets between worlds the Tyranids would adapt quickly to have larger standing forces between worlds to be ready for attacks.


It's like shooting borg with phasers. You have to develop an approach that's constantly changing so that they keep working against a constantly adapting shield.

Which is still slowing their advance somewhat. That in turn, if your method of tracking them through the interstellar void includes knowing their likely destination, can buy you time to reinforce given planets or systems.

It also siphons off some of their available biomass to create such defences.

This is where Kryptman had the right concept, but the wrong plan. If you can deny a Hive Fleet fresh biomass, it can’t replenish losses, or find new adaptations, as there’s no new DNA to sample. Thus, death by a thousand cuts might be a reliable way to counter the overall threat, as you may be able to over extend the Hive Fleet’s supply lines.

We have of course seen it dealing with similar situations, as there’s a Hive Fleet, I forget which, that attacks and overwhelms planets, then leaves behind biomass for others to consume. But if you can force all Hive Fleets to adopt that, you can a measure of control in the overall situation.

Of course, right now nobody seems to have the technology to reliable track Hive Fleets in the way necessary, or to intercept them in deep space. Which is a bit of a bollocks on the plan.

You also have to remember the Imperial Government is great at storing information- using new concepts/ideas, not so much.


Adeptus Mechanicus 8th Edition
Rain of Fire After the Battle of Macragge, a splinter fleet of Hive Fleet Behemoth winds its way into the Skitarii-held Daugel Helix. Using the knowledge recovered from the Tyran data-codex, the Skitarii fight back. Thecohort commander Alpha 9-Thyrrc tuns the tide by saturating a stratum of the atmosphere with gas from the planet's promethium refineries. After his Onagers' neutron lasers set the skies aflame, each new rain of Tyranid spores incinerates those xenos planetside instead of reinforcing them. A triumphalist data-codex is compiled and sent to the nearby forge world of Accatran, where it is swiftly filed away in the Archive Anomalis and forgotten.

Live that excerpt lol

A reading from the sacred text Warrior Brood by His most holy and blessed remembrencer: C.S. Goto.

"Grasping one talon in the formidable grip of his power fist, Neleus dragged the lictor creature out of the sand and held it momentarily, dangling from its own fore-talon. Then, with a swift movement, he crushed the talon in his fist and launched the hapless creature in the air with a swing of his immense arm, riddling it with hellfire shells as it flew. By the time it landed back in the sea of its own kind, the creature was little more than a shredded husk."

I know it's goto, but wouldn't a lictor just fall back down if you power-fist-crush the talon you're holding it up with? Or does he imagine scyting talons are made of the same stuff as pool noodles?

You can crush a limb without breaking it in half. So he crushed the limb, but its still going to be connected to the main body more than enough to power-throw it into the air

Devastation of Baal has some pretty good info on how Tyranid planetary invasions actually work and what their limitations are in general.

They do use microorganisms in the atmosphere as part of their strategy. The battle is noted as being fought at scales from the microbial to the orbital. The fact they're fighting Space Marines seems to make the microbial war a little less impactful. It's also heavily implied that while the Hive Mind is cunning, adaptable and intelligent, it is perhaps not what we would call creative. The adaptations it uses are based on what it encounters and assimilates into its vast bank of knowledge. Combined with the fact it doesn't really care about sacrificing each and every creature under its control you can see that the mathematics of warfare end up being a bit different for the Hive Mind. It's willing to lose a lot of forces to gain new information and wear it's enemies down.

However, it's also stated that the resources of the Hive Mind are not infinite. There's a cost to everything. Maybe it could spawn near-invulnerable creatures to fight for it, but the resource cost might be so high that if they were to be countered it would mean certain defeat. Again, the Hive Mind doesn't care about losing soldiers, unlike our own militaries, and doesn't have to worry about morale so it has access to strategies we wouldn't use. It's also stated that the consumption of a planet's biomass is factored into how they fight and manage resources, so if you can slow down either one of those things it can cause problems for the ongoing campaign.

As to why they haven't adapted to be immune to bolters or lasguns, I prefer the older lore on that. Nids used to be a lot worse at shooting. Their guns were terrifying, but not so great against modern armour, mainly due to the limitations of basing everything on organic materials. It makes sense - nature doesn't really do projectile weapons beyond the odd spraying of liquids over short distances so making ranged weapons that match those made using technology should be difficult, if not impossible. The same applies to armour. Yes, nature can do some amazing things, but defending against a bolt round is not that easy. Annoyingly, Nids are now disturbingly good at both shooting and melee, which I think takes something away from them from a background perspective.

There’s also that their Bioships, one for one, and class for class, aren’t that impressive at ranged combat.

Their main advantage as ever, is the Shadow in the Warp, which makes reinforcements very unlikely to arrive, and sheer numbers.

If you can keep at arms length with long ranged firepower against a Hive Fleet, you’ve a decent shot of doing real damage to them.

Of course that’s far easier said than done, as not as good doesn’t mean they’re useless - just not adapted to the sort of void warfare favoured in our galaxy.

The adaptations to bolters and lasguns are the increasingly bigger monsters. A bolter doesn't do much to a Tyrannofex.

The constant scale creep plays well to the Tyranid narrative.

 Overread wrote:
You can crush a limb without breaking it in half. So he crushed the limb, but its still going to be connected to the main body more than enough to power-throw it into the air

Ah, yeah that works. I read it as gripping and crushing the actual talon, which I imagine would shatter.

shortymcnostrill wrote:

 Overread wrote:
You can crush a limb without breaking it in half. So he crushed the limb, but its still going to be connected to the main body more than enough to power-throw it into the air

Ah, yeah that works. I read it as gripping and crushing the actual talon, which I imagine would shatter.

In the magical world of C.S. Goto, nothing is impossible.

shortymcnostrill wrote:

 Overread wrote:
You can crush a limb without breaking it in half. So he crushed the limb, but its still going to be connected to the main body more than enough to power-throw it into the air

Ah, yeah that works. I read it as gripping and crushing the actual talon, which I imagine would shatter.

One could also say the explosive force of such a hard talon exploding, plus the energy field of the power fist - remember in the movie when Thor uses his hammer on Captain America's shield?