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That's been confirmed now. So I'm wondering what it's gonna be like for the various Daemonic factions.

Looking at Death Guard for my Nurgle Daemons...

Shadow Of Chaos being replaced by Contagion is actually something I'm pretty chill with. I'll miss regenerating Plaguebearers and Nurglings, but -1 Toughness is a nice debuff to enemies.
And the Detachment rules aren't half-bad either.

I'm tentatively hopeful it'll be good.

I'm not sure how it would work for non aligned Legions. No Daemons for Black Legion and Wordbearers?

I’d assume you’ll be able to ally them in.
Will that happen? Maybe.

As someone who bought his first Plaguebearers and Beast of Nurgle together with his first Plague Marines only to find out there were no ally rules at all in 5th edition... I'm happy about it as that's they way I always imagined my army to play and now I only need one codex.
Will be interesting to see what it means for the detachments, so far (8th and 9th) they gave the DG 7 detachments, each with a specialization within their army, not mentioning daemons at all.

I guess for the Undivided Legions we'll return to 8th or 5th edition style of some Daemon basics in the CSM codex (Be'lakor + troops probably).

I'm not so sure Cabal of Sorcerers would work so well. I mean, sure it'd be easy to give Cabal points to Heralds and Lords of Change, but I'm not sure it fits the theme/fluff for them to be part of the coven.

Perhaps each Legion gets TWO army rules? The existing army rule and Shadow of Chaos?

 BorderCountess wrote:
I'm not so sure Cabal of Sorcerers would work so well. I mean, sure it'd be easy to give Cabal points to Heralds and Lords of Change, but I'm not sure it fits the theme/fluff for them to be part of the coven.

Perhaps each Legion gets TWO army rules? The existing army rule and Shadow of Chaos?

Daemon Primarchs likely to be the secret winners as strats are more likely to hit their keyword(s).

 BorderCountess wrote:
I'm not so sure Cabal of Sorcerers would work so well. I mean, sure it'd be easy to give Cabal points to Heralds and Lords of Change, but I'm not sure it fits the theme/fluff for them to be part of the coven.

Perhaps each Legion gets TWO army rules? The existing army rule and Shadow of Chaos?

Well, the Sons already have a ton of units that don't really work with Cabal of Sorcerers. (See: every vehicle.) So it wouldn't be that weird to just have the daemons not tie into CoS.

That said, I feel like it would be easy to have them tied to CoS without just giving them cabal points. Off the top of my head, you could:

* Keep shadow of chaos, but now it generates Cab Points instead of anything else. Or lowers the cost of rituals cast by sorcerers wholly within the shadow.
* Have some rituals that only target daemons. I'm thinking restoring lost daemons to a squad as you summon forth reinforcements.
* Empower daemons that are near a sorcerer when he casts a ritual.

Generally, I'm really glad to see daemons getting folded in. It might be enough to have me break out my Slaaneshi marines again. And the playstyles of daemons and their marine counterparts just seems so intuitive in a lot of cases.

Slaanesh gives you fast, expendable melee hordes to be backed up by fire support from your noise marines.
Tzeentch gives you splitting hordes of horrors to make up for the small numbers of the rubricae.
Nurgle gives you chewy fodder to go with yourelite squads with special weapons and your artillery tank support.
Khorne is probably the least interesting (because almost all Khorne units are pretty one-note), but marines bringing some tank busting guns is nice, and the daemons provide deepstriking options so you can threat overload the enemy even harder.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
I'm not so sure Cabal of Sorcerers would work so well. I mean, sure it'd be easy to give Cabal points to Heralds and Lords of Change, but I'm not sure it fits the theme/fluff for them to be part of the coven.

Perhaps each Legion gets TWO army rules? The existing army rule and Shadow of Chaos?

Well, the Sons already have a ton of units that don't really work with Cabal of Sorcerers. (See: every vehicle.) So it wouldn't be that weird to just have the daemons not tie into CoS.

That said, I feel like it would be easy to have them tied to CoS without just giving them cabal points. Off the top of my head, you could:

* Keep shadow of chaos, but now it generates Cab Points instead of anything else. Or lowers the cost of rituals cast by sorcerers wholly within the shadow.
* Have some rituals that only target daemons. I'm thinking restoring lost daemons to a squad as you summon forth reinforcements.
* Empower daemons that are near a sorcerer when he casts a ritual.

Generally, I'm really glad to see daemons getting folded in. It might be enough to have me break out my Slaaneshi marines again. And the playstyles of daemons and their marine counterparts just seems so intuitive in a lot of cases.

Slaanesh gives you fast, expendable melee hordes to be backed up by fire support from your noise marines.
Tzeentch gives you splitting hordes of horrors to make up for the small numbers of the rubricae.
Nurgle gives you chewy fodder to go with yourelite squads with special weapons and your artillery tank support.
Khorne is probably the least interesting (because almost all Khorne units are pretty one-note), but marines bringing some tank busting guns is nice, and the daemons provide deepstriking options so you can threat overload the enemy even harder.

One thing I'd be worried about is some sort of arbitrary limiter - if your Warlord is Space Marine, you can include 250/500/750 Demons. If your warlord is Demons you can only include 250/500/750 Space Marines.

Breton wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
I'm not so sure Cabal of Sorcerers would work so well. I mean, sure it'd be easy to give Cabal points to Heralds and Lords of Change, but I'm not sure it fits the theme/fluff for them to be part of the coven.

Perhaps each Legion gets TWO army rules? The existing army rule and Shadow of Chaos?

Well, the Sons already have a ton of units that don't really work with Cabal of Sorcerers. (See: every vehicle.) So it wouldn't be that weird to just have the daemons not tie into CoS.

That said, I feel like it would be easy to have them tied to CoS without just giving them cabal points. Off the top of my head, you could:

* Keep shadow of chaos, but now it generates Cab Points instead of anything else. Or lowers the cost of rituals cast by sorcerers wholly within the shadow.
* Have some rituals that only target daemons. I'm thinking restoring lost daemons to a squad as you summon forth reinforcements.
* Empower daemons that are near a sorcerer when he casts a ritual.

Generally, I'm really glad to see daemons getting folded in. It might be enough to have me break out my Slaaneshi marines again. And the playstyles of daemons and their marine counterparts just seems so intuitive in a lot of cases.

Slaanesh gives you fast, expendable melee hordes to be backed up by fire support from your noise marines.
Tzeentch gives you splitting hordes of horrors to make up for the small numbers of the rubricae.
Nurgle gives you chewy fodder to go with yourelite squads with special weapons and your artillery tank support.
Khorne is probably the least interesting (because almost all Khorne units are pretty one-note), but marines bringing some tank busting guns is nice, and the daemons provide deepstriking options so you can threat overload the enemy even harder.

One thing I'd be worried about is some sort of arbitrary limiter - if your Warlord is Space Marine, you can include 250/500/750 Demons. If your warlord is Demons you can only include 250/500/750 Space Marines.

I'm not sure there's any particular reason to put that sort of limit in place. If you're rolling the factions together entirely, then you just have to balance their datasheets internally. I can't think of a strong fluff reason for the chaos marine to daemon ratio to need to lean strongly one way or the other if they're basically just one unified faction.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

I'm not sure there's any particular reason to put that sort of limit in place. If you're rolling the factions together entirely, then you just have to balance their datasheets internally. I can't think of a strong fluff reason for the chaos marine to daemon ratio to need to lean strongly one way or the other if they're basically just one unified faction.

I don't think there's a reason either. But its a mechanic GW is leaning hard into - Imperial Agents, and even more so on point the Aeldari with Corsairs and Ynnari.

Breton wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

I'm not sure there's any particular reason to put that sort of limit in place. If you're rolling the factions together entirely, then you just have to balance their datasheets internally. I can't think of a strong fluff reason for the chaos marine to daemon ratio to need to lean strongly one way or the other if they're basically just one unified faction.

I don't think there's a reason either. But its a mechanic GW is leaning hard into - Imperial Agents, and even more so on point the Aeldari with Corsairs and Ynnari.

GW need to work out wtf to do with eldar, they're 4 factions in 1 book almost but without a models range almost. Ynnari needs something for them to be worth splitting out, or they need to stop being an "army", same with harlequins as well. Agents of the Aeldari would work really well here with a few extra kits.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
I'm not so sure Cabal of Sorcerers would work so well. I mean, sure it'd be easy to give Cabal points to Heralds and Lords of Change, but I'm not sure it fits the theme/fluff for them to be part of the coven.

Perhaps each Legion gets TWO army rules? The existing army rule and Shadow of Chaos?

Well, the Sons already have a ton of units that don't really work with Cabal of Sorcerers. (See: every vehicle.) So it wouldn't be that weird to just have the daemons not tie into CoS.

That said, I feel like it would be easy to have them tied to CoS without just giving them cabal points. Off the top of my head, you could:

* Keep shadow of chaos, but now it generates Cab Points instead of anything else. Or lowers the cost of rituals cast by sorcerers wholly within the shadow.
* Have some rituals that only target daemons. I'm thinking restoring lost daemons to a squad as you summon forth reinforcements.
* Empower daemons that are near a sorcerer when he casts a ritual.

Generally, I'm really glad to see daemons getting folded in. It might be enough to have me break out my Slaaneshi marines again. And the playstyles of daemons and their marine counterparts just seems so intuitive in a lot of cases.

Slaanesh gives you fast, expendable melee hordes to be backed up by fire support from your noise marines.
Tzeentch gives you splitting hordes of horrors to make up for the small numbers of the rubricae.
Nurgle gives you chewy fodder to go with yourelite squads with special weapons and your artillery tank support.
Khorne is probably the least interesting (because almost all Khorne units are pretty one-note), but marines bringing some tank busting guns is nice, and the daemons provide deepstriking options so you can threat overload the enemy even harder.

One thing I'd be worried about is some sort of arbitrary limiter - if your Warlord is Space Marine, you can include 250/500/750 Demons. If your warlord is Demons you can only include 250/500/750 Space Marines.

I'm not sure there's any particular reason to put that sort of limit in place. If you're rolling the factions together entirely, then you just have to balance their datasheets internally. I can't think of a strong fluff reason for the chaos marine to daemon ratio to need to lean strongly one way or the other if they're basically just one unified faction.

Yet its something that GW has already done in a number of codexes. If they are calling the book "Codex: Thousand Sons" then the expectation is you play an army representative of Thousand Sons and not Tzaangor or cultist hordes. Poor internal balamce resulted in padt iterations of TSons looking more like the latter, which resulted in limitations to make people actually play the army as TSons.

My expectation is that as these books release GW will update the Grotmas detachments to supercede those restrictions, thus the main detachments will remain legion-flavored but the option for cultist mobs and daemonic hordes will be enabled within specific detachments.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Yet its something that GW has already done in a number of codexes. If they are calling the book "Codex: Thousand Sons" then the expectation is you play an army representative of Thousand Sons and not Tzaangor or cultist hordes. Poor internal balamce resulted in padt iterations of TSons looking more like the latter, which resulted in limitations to make people actually play the army as TSons.

My expectation is that as these books release GW will update the Grotmas detachments to supercede those restrictions, thus the main detachments will remain legion-flavored but the option for cultist mobs and daemonic hordes will be enabled within specific detachments.

I suspect its going Codex: (God) instead of Codex Thousand Sons etc. And you'll have the Aeldari style restrictions - if your Army Faction is X you can have 250/500/750 of Y. If your Army faction is Y you can have 250/500/750 of X. Or potentially a recyle of the old Custodes rules - If your Army Faction is X, you can have 1 unit of Y for every unit of X kind of thing i.e. you must always have more X units than Y units.

GW making a good decision with this.

I think they're just going to lump them all together without restrictions. The traitor legions have always been a little light on unit variety and the individual demons have generally not had enough to support an entire army mono god. Combining them gets a real codex that stands alone quite well and creates the opportunity for detachments that are marine or demon focused. No reason to limit them when they're already only really working by spamming a limited set of units.

Breton wrote:
I suspect its going Codex: (God) instead of Codex Thousand Sons etc. And you'll have the Aeldari style restrictions - if your Army Faction is X you can have 250/500/750 of Y. If your Army faction is Y you can have 250/500/750 of X. Or potentially a recyle of the old Custodes rules - If your Army Faction is X, you can have 1 unit of Y for every unit of X kind of thing i.e. you must always have more X units than Y units.

The image from the LVO preview thing would imply the books are still named after the Legions.

 Insectum7 wrote:
GW making a good decision with this.

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll find a way to mess it up.

Dudeface wrote:


GW need to work out wtf to do with eldar, they're 4 factions in 1 book almost but without a models range almost. Ynnari needs something for them to be worth splitting out, or they need to stop being an "army", same with harlequins as well. Agents of the Aeldari would work really well here with a few extra kits.

Harlequins requires barely any effort to keep the faction players happy; a Combat Patrol pdf via Warcom or White Dwarf, and introducing a proper Troupe Master model. Need something minor for a new codex? An alternative Death Jester with an anti-armour weapon.

I'm sure Harlequins will also give performances on Necromunda once in a while, maybe with other business in town...

 waefre_1 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
GW making a good decision with this.

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll find a way to mess it up.

I'm sure they will too.

For starters all the Legions (and Daemons and Renegades and Cultists) should really just all be in one book again.

But having the potential spread of each god combined in one tome is an improvement.

 Dysartes wrote:

Breton wrote:
I suspect its going Codex: (God) instead of Codex Thousand Sons etc. And you'll have the Aeldari style restrictions - if your Army Faction is X you can have 250/500/750 of Y. If your Army faction is Y you can have 250/500/750 of X. Or potentially a recyle of the old Custodes rules - If your Army Faction is X, you can have 1 unit of Y for every unit of X kind of thing i.e. you must always have more X units than Y units.

The image from the LVO preview thing would imply the books are still named after the Legions.

The Legion names are far more marketable. I'd not be surprised though if we eventually see them named "The <legion name> of <god name>" for copyright purposes (which is also likely why we're getting rid of something as generic as "Chaos Demons").

SamusDrake wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


GW need to work out wtf to do with eldar, they're 4 factions in 1 book almost but without a models range almost. Ynnari needs something for them to be worth splitting out, or they need to stop being an "army", same with harlequins as well. Agents of the Aeldari would work really well here with a few extra kits.

Harlequins requires barely any effort to keep the faction players happy; a Combat Patrol pdf via Warcom or White Dwarf, and introducing a proper Troupe Master model. Need something minor for a new codex? An alternative Death Jester with an anti-armour weapon.

I'm sure Harlequins will also give performances on Necromunda once in a while, maybe with other business in town...

As someone who has played pure harlies a fair bit recently, I don't really want most of that.

A combat patrol would be fine, but Combat Patrol as a game is more like tutorial mode for actual 40k, so not something I see myself using much in the long run. If anything, Kill Team would be a better fit as it would give the designers room to provide some juicy, fluffy rules for each player of the troupe and an excuse to do some alternative sculpts for characters.

A troupe master model is absolutely not needed. Getting one for "free" in the troupe box is fantastic and comes with plenty of cool bits as-is. I absolutely do not want to add $35 do the price of someone's starting army just for the sake of standardizing how models are sold. An anti-tank DJ would be neat.

What I really want for harlequins is just a return to more flavorful rules and options in general. Like, pivotal roles were a fantastic way to get more mileage out of your models and to give your army some personality or to lean into the fluff that you're using a specific saedath for a battle. The bespoke rules for caresses/kisses/embraces were really evocative even if they were a bit clunky. Give me that stuff back. And maybe a detachment so that they can feel properly tricksy/survivable when being fielded on their own.

But more realistically, Agents of the Aeldari seems like a good way to handle clowns/pirates/maybe dinosaurs and white seers if they wanted to add those things down the road. Options for splashing in a few such units as allies, and then maybe a detachment or two for fielding each of those as a standalone army.

Ynnari probably make the most sense as a detachment in either of the 'dexes with rules for fielding units from each subfaction together. So basically what they'r elikely doing in the upcoming codex. I don't really want a bunch of ynnari-specific units so much as I just want like, special rule swaps for the datasheets available to them. Have wyches lose Power From Pain and gain Strength From Death. Maybe have a farseer swap out Fortune for something more death-themed or just give him access to spooky powers as an Enhancement.

I am actually ok with Daemons being rolled into the deity specific legions. I know for my TS, I have not read a major battle in the fluff where they don't use daemons as primary troops, which makes sense as there is not a whole lot of TS rubrics etc. I am pretty sure the same is true for the other deity legions. It will also expand the roster for those codex, without needing a large model release, which is not going to happen for TS or DG any time soon.

I think if GW leaves the daemon index with the grotmas calendar detachments, with the index data sheets for multi-god armies or allies for CSM/Chaos Knights, I think it will be a pretty good state. I mean with the index and grotmas there is basically a daemon codex already released. If they drop a detachment for Bel'Kor that lets him take like 50% CSM with daemons that would be great and, yea that would basically be a codex. If they don't keep a way for CSM/Chaos Knights/multi-god armies to play without needing all four books or something stupid like that it will be a shame, but GW has been doing much much better lately than in the past with decisions like this (i.e. see, bringing back deathwatch).

I am looking forward to the new books, can't wait to play my TS again (although need to play with some eldar first).

I wonder if there are going to be two daemon prince profiles in one codex, one for the Marine side and one for the daemon side?

The implementation of this is everything.

I have some fears- I'm afraid of losing Daemon units- especially the recent additions (Infernal Enrapturess, Contorted Epitome). Right now, the Contorted Epitome doesn't show up for 40k Daemons in the Webstore, so perhaps the trimming has already begun.

Arbitrary point limits are also another barrier we could do without.

I'm curious about the Crusade content. The Great Game Crusade rules from the 9th ed Daemons book were cool, and might now be lost. The content in 10th EC may favour the Legion and neglect the daemons, in much the same way the Core Tau Crusade content was light on Kroot. They were included... But subordinate (until White Dwarf released pure Kroot Crusade rules).

Time will tell, and it may not take long. I'm likely to buy in for the EC box since there isn't an Eldar one (though the new Eldar Combat Patrol might be good).

Some of the models vanishing might just be them moving to new slots in advance of the EC release and update to the store structure or just the store being badly laid out. The Contorted Epitome is still in AoS.


I'll be honestly I think some demon models have suffered from being jointly released for AoS and 40K at times with fantasy taking a lead. Eg a bunch of them just feel "odd" in a sci-fi setting. I've said this before if things like the Slaanesh Chariot got a 40K version that was upgraded parts or totally unique it might improve the model a lot over something that clearly works in fantasy but feels strange in sci-fi.


Still losing things is never nice for fans of a faction so I hope Slaanesh fans don't lose models in the transfer.

You aren't wrong, and I am fine losing some of those out-of-place daemon units IF they are replaced with something at least as cool.

My fear is that they just ditch them and give us nothing in exchange. Like "There's no need to have more than 10 Legion units and 10 daemon units since they are so often used together" whereas if they kept separate books they'd be more inclined to put real development into each of those forces rather than being content with two half armies.

Well I think for 40K and AoS there was a big move initially to focus a lot on the mortal followers in terms of getting models out there. In both cases the games lacked mortal follower models (AoS just didn't have any at all whilst 40K has a couple of upgrade parts that are super old and that's it).

Now granted the AoS did update a bunch of demon models like the fiends and Greater Demon to new updated models. And there were a bunch of leaders added too.


But in general most of the core models were mortal followers.

I figure that next edition or at least the next semi-big "its not just 1 hero model" update for the demons could well swing back to the demons side. Where you've the option of updating some older sculpts and/or adding some totally new demonic types to the roster.

Tygre wrote:
I'm not sure how it would work for non aligned Legions. No Daemons for Black Legion and Wordbearers?

If its anything like how it used to be, legions like Night Lords won't have demon options, where Black Legion and Wordbearers will be able to take demons of any mark.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I wonder if there are going to be two daemon prince profiles in one codex, one for the Marine side and one for the daemon side?

I was wondering if the Primarchs were going to be able to double dip.

I wouldn't expect points ratios for marines vs cultists vs daemons in the god books- I expect that the focus will be done by detachments. There are 6 in the EC book, so I'd expect to see 2-3 detachments that mainly benefit marines, 1-2 that mainly benefit daemons, and 1-2 that encourage a mixed list.