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Here and there on dakka and other resources I'd seen mention that aircraft can gone/legended in next edition. Are there any rumors or hints from GW? Or it's all just speculation from people who don't like aircrafts?

Sounds about right, another 10% of the Drukhari codex chipped away...

I tend to lean towards it being people who don't like them starting the rumours of their demise, but I have no evidence of that. I don't think there has been anything to indicate leaks coming out of GW on the topic.

Also, if 11th is more of a tweaked edition compared to a larger reboot, I suspect they should be safe - I'd like to see some of the newer factions picking up aircraft, if I'm honest. Gief Iron Eagle Gyrocopter for the Leagues, GW!

Oh I hope so. They were a stupid addition from 7th ed that did nothing but make an already clunky system even clunkier and didn't even fit the scale of the game.

However, because GW already has the models and probably wants to keep selling them, the Aircraft RULE will mostly be retired and the models themselves will probably just be all given the Hover rule instead. Which is honestly what they should have done like, 3 editions ago.

Weirdly, I think that unless GW just doesn't want to bother carrying the stock, I like the way they approach aircraft (and most superheavies/fortifications): they are legal, with codex rules and points, but just... not competitive. If you want to use them in narrative or big games, which is where they really belong, go nuts! But nobody rolling up to a random game night has to worry about the nonsense of aircraft interactions from prior editions.

One of my favorite examples of this are guard baneblades, which are a pretty iconic unit and have had a plastic model for 18 years. They're in the codex (all eight variants) and do see some corner play, but are locked out of many rules by not having the proper keywords. Despite being IG armored vehicels, they don't have Squadron, and can't take orders from a tank commander, and can't use many strats or detachment rules. This means they're just a datasheet, which is a lot easier to balance. (the size with some terrain layouts is a different issue)

I will say, there is room for improvement in the implementation. Most "bombers" have to start off the table, deploy turn two, and can only use their bombing rules when moving normally, meaning they do nothing for the most important half of the game (and crucially can't score objectives). there has to be some way to make them more useful.

One of the things that GW could explore for non-hover aircraft would be to make the far less durable, but show up earlier. Strike aircraft tend to hit hard but not stick around when the fire gets hot.

OTOH, the Admech fliers were the last ones released, and that was four years ago and there is certainly design space for more fliers (Votann, Sisters, GSC dont' have one). They might be a prime candidate to go to legends with a MTO run every now and then.


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 Dysartes wrote:
I tend to lean towards it being people who don't like them starting the rumours of their demise, but I have no evidence of that. I don't think there has been anything to indicate leaks coming out of GW on the topic.

GWs leaks tend to be hyping up future product, not tipping their hands to what is being cut. We had no forewarning about the firstborn or stormcast purges in the last edition changes.

I think fliers future depends less on rules or game play than on how well they sell.

 kabaakaba wrote:
Here and there on dakka and other resources I'd seen mention that aircraft can gone/legended in next edition. Are there any rumors or hints from GW? Or it's all just speculation from people who don't like aircrafts?

Mostly wishful thinking by people who dislike aircraft.

Could they go to Legends? Or even disappear altogether? Of course. Anything is possible.
But as hard proof that all flyers will soon leave? Detractors will use the following as evidence:
A) Forge World kits sheets being moved to Legends.
B) Forge World kits being discontinued & sheets being moved/removed
C) the Thunderbolt losing its 40k sheet
D) the 2 Space Wolf flyers being moved to Legends when the most recent codex arrived.

But their main proof?
They simply dont like them.

Well I wouldn't buy an entire Chapter's worth of Stormhawks and Stormtalons. I don't think there's any strong indication they're going away. I also don't think GW is particularly happy with where they are right now, don't have ideas for making it better and havne't been shy at cutting stuff that doesn't work "this time" to try it again.

Do you guys really expect any serious discussion in this thread, when you immediately imply that everyone with a different opinion than you has an ulterior motive?

Facts:
- GW already removed one of the newest plastic fliers. Besides the voidraven and archaeopters, all other fliers were older than the Stormfang.
- Ad mech is the only faction to get a new flier after the Kirby era has ended, and that model was designed in 2015, during the Kirby era, right after the last flier releases
- There is no primaris flier
- Between the other 9 factions released or relaunched in the last decade, not a single one was given a new plastic flier.
- GW has put a "don't touch this" tax on the point costs of all aircraft and generally prevents them from interacting with most parts of the game unless they randomly forget to put "(except AIRCRAFT)" on a rule
- Designers have stated in interviews that rules for aircraft are "difficult"
- Outside of hover aircraft, they are pretty much absent from gaming tables

There is no credible rumor that support this, but many people are interpreting the rather obvious dark clouds as a sign of rain - irrespective of their opinion on aircraft.

I like flyers. I own 4. But the rules have always been kludgy, and GW can’t get them to work. They were horribly must-have broken, they’ve been easily exploited for rules loop holes, and nerfed to trash. The whole range, but never “right”.

I’ve not heard any rumors one way or the other, but would not be suprised if they quietly went to legends for an edition before being totally removed. Or just stuck being fast skimmers again.

Love the models more or less universally. But have never taken to their rules. Even FW’s original quite abstract ones didn’t feel right.

But I don’t see them going away.

I'd be happy if they were fast skimmers that must move a minimum of X" away from their starting point.

Essentially the same as a unit that can pop off the board and deep strike in the same turn, but have a minimum range from their starting point to redeploy.

They have an 0C of 1, so they can be used to rapidly relocate to far objectives but aren't good at holding objectives against anyone else.

Rules already exist that they can easily wedge themselves into the game.

 Jidmah wrote:
Do you guys really expect any serious discussion in this thread, when you immediately imply that everyone with a different opinion than you has an ulterior motive?

Facts:
- GW already removed one of the newest plastic fliers. Besides the voidraven and archaeopters, all other fliers were older than the Stormfang.
- Ad mech is the only faction to get a new flier after the Kirby era has ended, and that model was designed in 2015, during the Kirby era, right after the last flier releases
- There is no primaris flier
- Between the other 9 factions released or relaunched in the last decade, not a single one was given a new plastic flier.
- GW has put a "don't touch this" tax on the point costs of all aircraft and generally prevents them from interacting with most parts of the game unless they randomly forget to put "(except AIRCRAFT)" on a rule
- Designers have stated in interviews that rules for aircraft are "difficult"
- Outside of hover aircraft, they are pretty much absent from gaming tables

There is no credible rumor that support this, but many people are interpreting the rather obvious dark clouds as a sign of rain - irrespective of their opinion on aircraft.

Well a lot of that can have multiple explanations. There's a lot of Primaris replacement for first born that hasn't happened, and I doubt will happen for example - I suspect because GW ran out of time and goodwill.


Aircraft are already "difficult" as they said, and got more difficult when the boards shrank.

Overall I think they have a good base theme - share the board but little interaction between the ground and the flyer. I'd LIKE to see them hammer it out into something that works and then do something similar with Tanks/Infantry and Anti Tank/Infantry.

Breton wrote:
Well a lot of that can have multiple explanations. There's a lot of Primaris replacement for first born that hasn't happened, and I doubt will happen for example - I suspect because GW ran out of time and goodwill.

A lot? Even the terminators and drop pods are primaris by lore now. The only thing remaining is the tactical squad. They literally created a primaris version (or three) for every single unit in the largest codex of the game, squatted everything else, but skipped over the three fliers.

And even if you can find a different excuse for every single one, there is one explanation which fits every single one of them: GW is not interested in making money of plastic fliers. And we all know that NMNR really means "no money, no rules".

I'll say this: if aircraft go, I go.

What made 40k good was the breadth of its range and its unrivaled capacity for tabletop spectacle.

As GW flirts more and more with the idea that the game needs to follow an E-sport model of season-based competitive play, they get further and further from the only thing that gives their product an edge over other product.

In a world where the 40k range is no broader or more spectacular than any other game range, 40k won't get played, because almost all other games have better rules, prices and marketing practices.

I doubt they will get rid of the Valkyrie fwiw.

If everything just gets converted to hover then that's possible (maybe even desirable) but I can't see GW retiring all those kits.

Yeah, Heldrake, Harpy and Stormraven work perfectly fine with hover. Just make all aircraft hover and burry the stupid concept of trying to make super-sonic jets move "realistically" on a football field.

 PenitentJake wrote:
I'll say this: if aircraft go, I go.

What made 40k good was the breadth of its range and its unrivaled capacity for tabletop spectacle.

As GW flirts more and more with the idea that the game needs to follow an E-sport model of season-based competitive play, they get further and further from the only thing that gives their product an edge over other product.

In a world where the 40k range is no broader or more spectacular than any other game range, 40k won't get played, because almost all other games have better rules, prices and marketing practices.

Following your video gaming analogy, you remind me of the people who promised us that X game would be the next WoW-killer.

Aircraft is cool, they just don't have a good design space. Fast ranged doesn't do anything in a game with table length ranges already. The real problem with them though is simply that no matter how hard the rules try to say otherwise, they take up considerable board space, which makes their most powerful uses unintuitive and really not fun or flavorful.

Selfcontrol wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:
I'll say this: if aircraft go, I go.

What made 40k good was the breadth of its range and its unrivaled capacity for tabletop spectacle.

As GW flirts more and more with the idea that the game needs to follow an E-sport model of season-based competitive play, they get further and further from the only thing that gives their product an edge over other product.

In a world where the 40k range is no broader or more spectacular than any other game range, 40k won't get played, because almost all other games have better rules, prices and marketing practices.

Following your video gaming analogy, you remind me of the people who promised us that X game would be the next WoW-killer.

Nothing was going to be a WoW killer. Too much mass and too much inertia. But what really happened as far as I can tell (not an expert in MMOs) is that there were other games around that could at least offer alternatives, even if they weren't in the exact same space. I know a number of people who seemed to tire of WoW and started playing City of Heroes, Eve Online, and later Skyrim, Planetside and Minecraft. No individual thing was going to "kill" WoW, but it got slowly chipped away at.

In terms of tabletop, I can't think of a game that comes close to the spectacle of GWs offerings, other than OPR. That seems like an opportunity. Honestly what I want is a better OPR. Something I can use my old armies with, print models for if I want, and with more texture than OPR.

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:
Well a lot of that can have multiple explanations. There's a lot of Primaris replacement for first born that hasn't happened, and I doubt will happen for example - I suspect because GW ran out of time and goodwill.

A lot? Even the terminators and drop pods are primaris by lore now. The only thing remaining is the tactical squad. They literally created a primaris version (or three) for every single unit in the largest codex of the game, squatted everything else, but skipped over the three fliers.

And even if you can find a different excuse for every single one, there is one explanation which fits every single one of them: GW is not interested in making money of plastic fliers. And we all know that NMNR really means "no money, no rules".

Yes, a lot. I think they were splitting the Devastator Squad into one squad for each "element" i.e. Bolter, Plasma, Melta, Flame, Grav, Missile, Las. I think the Tacs were replaced but not squatted. 10 Guys, upgraded Sergeant two non-bolter weapons. The Rhino was not replaced. I think the Whirlwind and Vindicator were replaced, but the replacement sucked and people didn't accept it. You yourself point out Terminators are (And Drop Pods though Pods always really were) Primaris. They ran out of time and good will from their customers to continue replacing First Born with new Primarisized. They may have always planned on upsizing Terminators, but I suspect they were going to replace the Stern- and Van- guard Veterans. Instead they're just going to upsize them, And you seem to think I said the Flyers were going away - I didn't. I said I think GW doesn't like where Flyers are, but don't have a better idea of where to go with them so Flyers are just going to status quo.


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 Insectum7 wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:
I'll say this: if aircraft go, I go.

What made 40k good was the breadth of its range and its unrivaled capacity for tabletop spectacle.

As GW flirts more and more with the idea that the game needs to follow an E-sport model of season-based competitive play, they get further and further from the only thing that gives their product an edge over other product.

In a world where the 40k range is no broader or more spectacular than any other game range, 40k won't get played, because almost all other games have better rules, prices and marketing practices.

Following your video gaming analogy, you remind me of the people who promised us that X game would be the next WoW-killer.

Nothing was going to be a WoW killer. Too much mass and too much inertia. But what really happened as far as I can tell (not an expert in MMOs) is that there were other games around that could at least offer alternatives, even if they weren't in the exact same space. I know a number of people who seemed to tire of WoW and started playing City of Heroes, Eve Online, and later Skyrim, Planetside and Minecraft. No individual thing was going to "kill" WoW, but it got slowly chipped away at.

In terms of tabletop, I can't think of a game that comes close to the spectacle of GWs offerings, other than OPR. That seems like an opportunity. Honestly what I want is a better OPR. Something I can use my old armies with, print models for if I want, and with more texture than OPR.

WOW was a WOW killer. Every expansion takes away about 20-30% of your character ability, adds another 10 levels where you re-earn that 20-30% of your abilities. The Hamster wheel is pretty obvious.

The theory that GW isn't making aircraft models because they don't have a good way to support them with rules would be logical if it didn't represent a stark reversal from how GW has historically worked. The models come first and all the rules and fluff are made to accommodate them after the fact.

I mean, models like the Baneblade and Stompa have never played particularly well in normal 40K. They're big centerpiece model kits for hobbyists, that GW will give you (mediocre) rules support for if you really want to put them on a 6x4 table.

Maybe things have changed with the greater focus on tournament gaming in recent years, but I'd want to see some more compelling evidence than the lack of recent aircraft.

Breton wrote:

WOW was a WOW killer. Every expansion takes away about 20-30% of your character ability, adds another 10 levels where you re-earn that 20-30% of your abilities. The Hamster wheel is pretty obvious.

Hehe. Then maybe 40k will be the 40k killer, since the Hamster wheel is also obvious.

Breton wrote:
Yes, a lot. I think they were splitting the Devastator Squad into one squad for each "element" i.e. Bolter, Plasma, Melta, Flame, Grav, Missile, Las. I think the Tacs were replaced but not squatted. 10 Guys, upgraded Sergeant two non-bolter weapons. The Rhino was not replaced. I think the Whirlwind and Vindicator were replaced, but the replacement sucked and people didn't accept it. You yourself point out Terminators are (And Drop Pods though Pods always really were) Primaris. They ran out of time and good will from their customers to continue replacing First Born with new Primarisized. They may have always planned on upsizing Terminators, but I suspect they were going to replace the Stern- and Van- guard Veterans. Instead they're just going to upsize them, And you seem to think I said the Flyers were going away - I didn't. I said I think GW doesn't like where Flyers are, but don't have a better idea of where to go with them so Flyers are just going to status quo.

Devastators have been replaced by Eradicators, Eliminators, superkrak Desolators, Helblasters and Supressors.
Rhino and Razorback have been replaced by the Impulsor
Vindicator has been replaced by the Gladiator Valiant or the plasma Repulsor Executioner
Whirlwind has been replaced by superfrag Desolators
Sternguard got a new kit and are primaris wearing tacticus armor

Which means according to yourself, there is a single unit (vanguard veterans) which hasn't have a primaris re-release.

I also understood you clearly. I was just pointing out that you were wrong about "a lot" of units not having a primaris version yet. Knowing you, you will now bend over backwards twice rather than admit you were wrong about this, so let's save each other's time and just not continue this discussion.


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 Insectum7 wrote:
Nothing was going to be a WoW killer. Too much mass and too much inertia. But what really happened as far as I can tell (not an expert in MMOs) is that there were other games around that could at least offer alternatives, even if they weren't in the exact same space. I know a number of people who seemed to tire of WoW and started playing City of Heroes, Eve Online, and later Skyrim, Planetside and Minecraft. No individual thing was going to "kill" WoW, but it got slowly chipped away at.

It's worth noting that after all this "chipping away" WoW is still sitting at over 7 million players, still comfortably sitting in the top 100 games played last year. I know people younger than the game which are playing it regularly.

Just like MtG, D&D, LoL, Overwatch and other huge games managed by gakky companies with much worse business practices than GW, the sheer size of the game keeps attracting too many new people for those who drop out of frustration to matter. Neither 40k nor any of them are going to go away.

I feel this is going way off topic, but speaking as someone who's about 12 months clean of a 20 year on again/off again WoW relationship, I'm kind of cynical on the idea WoW is pulling in 7 million players (wasn't there a claim of 9 million a couple of months ago?)

Mainly because as Jidmah says, a game with 7-9 million subscribed players - and something like 1-1.5~ million daily active players - is still absolutely massive. Admittedly its hard to lie about these things. But you'd think it should therefore produce a cultural... echo/signal that is obviously discernable across the media space. (Much like how you had to be living under a rock not to know about WoW from about 2005-2011~) This just doesn't seem to be the case today.

Compare it with how D&D (and 40k) content has definitely enjoyed such a boom, and all the usual platforms are talking about D&D and 40k way more than they were 10+ years back.

But maybe its like how Avatar should be "this generation's Star Wars" and instead its just a series of films that inexplicably make more money than anything else then get completely forgotten. There is no echo effect.

Anyway, I think if GW isn't making flyers its just because no one's green lit a cool design. Its also possible things like the Ad Mech flyers didn't sell well, so there's a general view of "don't make flyers, do other stuff".

I think its unlikely they'll get removed. I agree they could just be turned into regular units on slightly unusual bases. Although the idea of say Ork Boys charging a Voidraven Bomber feels a bit silly.

well the most fun I have had in recent years with 40k was my vulture/Valk/stormtrooper air cav force in 8th edition. But yes smaller tables, unless they want to just use them as markers for when to resolve AA and ground attacks, not sure what use they have.

As others have said, the trouble is GW don't seem to know how to make them work. Which is a huge shame because the models are great and it would be a shame for them to be gone completely.

If it were me for 11th I'd really treat them like aircraft. They can be powerful units but the offset being good rules for AA and something like no deployment on turn 1-2.

I would advocate for abstract rules.

I forget which edition, but a previous incarnation of Epic allowed for orbital bombardments, where you used a BFG ship, off-board, as a counter, shifting it along its track ready for its turn to unleash hell.

Now of course, all our Little Dudes are just fancy place markers on the board. But there’s a real difference between that, and being a glorified, off-board countdown token.

There was also, probably the same edition, time in Epic where fighters did little against anything on the board, but were instead used to drive enemy bombers, which could mess things right up, away.

I think it was Epic 40,000?

I don't think abstract rules do a great job of getting the models on the table

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:
Yes, a lot. I think they were splitting the Devastator Squad into one squad for each "element" i.e. Bolter, Plasma, Melta, Flame, Grav, Missile, Las. I think the Tacs were replaced but not squatted. 10 Guys, upgraded Sergeant two non-bolter weapons. The Rhino was not replaced. I think the Whirlwind and Vindicator were replaced, but the replacement sucked and people didn't accept it. You yourself point out Terminators are (And Drop Pods though Pods always really were) Primaris. They ran out of time and good will from their customers to continue replacing First Born with new Primarisized. They may have always planned on upsizing Terminators, but I suspect they were going to replace the Stern- and Van- guard Veterans. Instead they're just going to upsize them, And you seem to think I said the Flyers were going away - I didn't. I said I think GW doesn't like where Flyers are, but don't have a better idea of where to go with them so Flyers are just going to status quo.

Devastators have been replaced by Eradicators, Eliminators, superkrak Desolators, Helblasters and Supressors.
Rhino and Razorback have been replaced by the Impulsor
Vindicator has been replaced by the Gladiator Valiant or the plasma Repulsor Executioner
Whirlwind has been replaced by superfrag Desolators
Sternguard got a new kit and are primaris wearing tacticus armor

Which means according to yourself, there is a single unit (vanguard veterans) which hasn't have a primaris re-release.

I also understood you clearly. I was just pointing out that you were wrong about "a lot" of units not having a primaris version yet. Knowing you, you will now bend over backwards twice rather than admit you were wrong about this, so let's save each other's time and just not continue this discussion.

You obviously did not understand me clearly. If you had you wouldn't have gotten your "according to you" summary so wrong. Especially when I literally talk about the replacements for Vindicators and Whirlwinds and you didn't get it right.

I think the Whirlwind and Vindicator were replaced, but the replacement sucked and people didn't accept it.

Desolators as you claim was the replacement "according to you" did not suck, and people absolutely accepted them. I also quite literally said Sternguard did not get a Primaris replacement, they just got an upsized new kit. If you understood me you would have noticed just upsizing the kit and slapping a new keyword is not included in what I would have called a Primaris Replacement.

but I suspect they were going to replace the Stern- and Van- guard Veterans. Instead they're just going to upsize them,

Rhinos have not been replaced by Impulsors. Impulsors only ever transport 6 max. You cannot skip all toppers in order to transport 12. Transporting more than 6 is almost the only reason to take a Rhino which now (after having lost its second Storm bolter) only outguns the new Drop Pod. There is no 10+ cheap transport. Except the Rhino.
Devastators have been replaced by HINTS (Heavy Bolter), Eradicators(Melta), Desolators(debatable - I think they were actually the second Whirlwind Replacement), and Hellblasters(Plasma). An argument could be made for Infernus Squads(Flame). That still leaves Las and Grav and maybe Missiles. 3 Las Fusils are not replacements for 4 Las Cannon.
Vindicator was "replaced" by the Comms array/Orbital Barrage on the Impulsor in 9th. It sucked, so they made the Commans Array into a CP generator, and haven't created a new Vindicator replacement yet. The Repulsor Executioner is just GW following the Land Raider paradigm and creating a Transport for Guns swap variant.
Whirlwind and the Hunter was replaced by the Impulsor with Bellicatus array. It wasn't good enough to replace the Whirlwind (but was OK for the Hunter nobody cared much about anyway) so they made the Desolators.
Sternguard and Terminators being made Primaris instead of being replaced with Bolterguardor and Terminatusor Squads also proves my point. They've run out of time, goodwill, and willpower so now they're just upsizing the kits instead of: replace, rename, and remove.
They did the same with Sanguinary Guard. They probably will do the same thing with DA Speeders - Darkshrouds and Vengeances. (I think they do the Darkshroud but can the Vengeance.)
The Valiant looks like a test balloon for an Impulsor Chassis Baal Predator.
Which means actually according to me, there are two maybe three Devastator loadouts, and 2 Rhino Chassis replacements still waiting just from the words you just tried to put in my mouth. Plus assorted Bespokes in Bespoke Chapters.

Suppresors were probably one-and-done throwaways. They were kinda sorta Bike replacements and/or filler for a Phobos boxed set. Now that we have Outriders - who are hopefully/likely still waiting for a finalized kit and rules especially for Ravenwing and/or White Scars uniques.

Which is also why we got the Ballistus and Brutalis Dreads. The Ballistus Dread is a new name for the originally Dark Angels but then everybody-allowed gunboat Dread wtih the TLLC and ML arms. The Brutalis is fairly obviously the platform base they'll make new Bjorns and Mortis Dreads from. Now they were (probably) never going to kill off Bjorn and pull a 10,000 year old non-stasised Primaris Marine who served as the Second Great Wolf after Russ yadda yadda - I'm pretty sure the plan was always to just upsize Bjorn into the bigger Dread model. Probably/Maybe with Terminators too. They're too iconic.


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 LunarSol wrote:
I don't think abstract rules do a great job of getting the models on the table

All the rules are abstract.

Breton wrote:
All the rules are abstract.

Nuh uh, I think it's canon that a Space Marine has a 67% chance to hit a target no matter what it is or how far away it is. He's also got a 67% chance to hit anything in close combat, and in the time it takes him to fire two shots from his bolter he can move exactly 25% or 20% of the maximum range of that bolter (while shooting). Unless he wants to fight in melee, then he runs up to twice as fast. And every die rolled represents exactly one shot fired so he's never going to shoot more than ten times in a battle, which means a single turn probably represents, what, two seconds.

Snark aside: The original flyer rules where they essentially showed up at the edge of the board, did an attack run, and then departed the area were a reasonable abstraction to represent aircraft at the otherwise small scale of 40K. That implementation had its problems, but I liked treating them as support assets an awful lot more than either treating them as flying tanks or omitting them from the game entirely.