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I'm in a dispute with someone who insists he can use the Undivided banner to bring in an enslaved daemon pack on turn #1. I say he can"t.

Also he is now saying that if you enslave a unit to the banner you can change your mind and not use it. I also believe this is wrong.

Who's correct??

Thanks, RB

I'm not sure about #2 because I don't have my codex handy, but question 1 has been debated at length without a clear answer.

I personally believe that you can summon the Demons, but plenty of other people feel strongly the other way. Again, IIRC, we lack a definitive answer either way.

Seems pretty clear to me. Says that a single nominated unit is bound to the icon. "At the start of the Chaos players turn this unit can be automatically summoned without making a Reserves roll." The start of the Chaos players first turn fits the rules as written. If you look in the Chaos codex it specifically says Deamons are always summoned whether the Reserves special rule is in force or not. They are not Reserves. They are Summoned.

As for changing your mind afterward, I don't think you can decide not to bring them in after binding them to the icon. It says that the unit is bound to the icon at the beginning of the game. You have to bring them in.

My contentionis that no daemon unit is allowed until turn 2. And you are correct that you don't roll to bring them in, they automatically come inbecause they are enslaved to the banner.

The banner doesn't state that the enslaved daemons can come in on turn #1, only they don't have a summoning roll.

 

RB

Posted By RB on 07/04/2006 9:23 PM

My contentionis that no daemon unit is allowed until turn 2.

Where is this stated in the rules?

Normal daemon summing requires a dice roll -- which cannot be made until turn 2. But the description of the icon does not say that it allows the enslaved unit to automatically pass the dice roll. It simply allows the unit to be automatically summoned during the Chaos player's turn.

Aren't you required to summon a unit as soon as it is available?

Where is this stated in the rules?

The rules for Summoning tell you to place the Daemons in reserve, and make a Summoning roll for them each turn, starting from the 2nd turn.

The contention is that, since you don't start rolling until turn two, you can't summon until turn two. All the Icon does is allow you to skip the roll.

Others argue that the Summoning rules don't actually state that you can't summon in turn one... you just don't start rolling for it until turn 2. So if you don't have to roll, there's nothing stopping you from bringing them on in turn one.

Aren't you required to summon a unit as soon as it is available?

That's actually a good point. Since Reserves are required to be placed as soon as they become available, if the Icon allows you to place them without rolling, they would have to be placed in the first available turn.

Of course, if we're getting technical, the Icon allows you to summon them without needing to make a Reserves roll... but Summoning doesn't use a Reserves roll... it has it's own little chart included in the Summoning rules. So the Icon actually doesn't do anything at all... it simply allows you to automatically pass a Reserves roll that you don't make in the first place.

Posted By insaniak on 07/04/2006 10:46 PM
...So the Icon actually doesn't do anything at all... it simply allows you to automatically pass a Reserves roll that you don't make in the first place...

Let's hear it for clear rules writing!

Also, the Icon doesn't define what "enslaved" means. I usually see it played that the daemons bound to it do not roll for summoning normally (e.g., they can't come in to play unless the owner chooses to automatically summon them), but the rules don't seem to support this.

insaniak:

Whether it's a Reserves roll or not, it still allows automatic summoning. If it said "automatic summoning without taking a shot of tequila", it would still grant automatic summoning, whether or not a shot of tequila was necessary.

But anyway, this is a serious Dakka-go-round question. Per the text of the Icon, the owner is allowed to use it at the start of his turn. There are no restrictions placed on summoning daemons on the first turn, just that one only rolls starting on the second turn -- and the Icon allows summoning without the roll. As Arioc says, it is not a roll that automatically passes, it is an ability that functions without the roll.

"automatically summoned without making a reserves roll".

Does the 'without making a reserves roll' mean that you would then normally have to make it? If so then it's turn 2 as you would not 'make the reserves roll' until turn 2.

As to the

That's actually a good point. Since Reserves are required to be placed as soon as they become available, if the Icon allows you to place them without rolling, they would have to be placed in the first available turn.

the rule states that, "At the start of the Chaos Player's turn this unit CAN be automatically summoned".

They don't HAVE to be summoned, the Chaos player has the choice.

Enslaved to the icon means that this unit can ONLY come out through that icon. Since every other Daemon unit has to roll for reserves and they must be summoned 'when they become available' then the unit enslaved to the icon would be immune to this.

Interesting. It does say "...can..."

I had originally taken it to mean that the enslaved unit was required to be placed in the Chaos player's first turn, but it doesn't say that either.

Also, about the "Changing his mind" bit... I am pretty sure that would be illegal.

P1 Enslaved Daemon unit doesn't need to roll to be summoned.
P2 All other Daemon units DO need to roll to be summoned.
P3 All Daemon units must be summoned on the turn they become available

C1 This would allow the chaos player to 'hold' that unit back until he decided he wanted to roll for it. Illegal due to the fact that according to the Daemon Icon rules the only way to then summon that unit would be to do so "automatically without a reserves roll".

Enslaved to the icon means that this unit can ONLY come out through that icon. Since every other Daemon unit has to roll for reserves and they must be summoned 'when they become available' then the unit enslaved to the icon would be immune to this.

Yes, that's the standard way it's played, but that's creating a definition of enslaved out of whole cloth. It's simply not in the rules exactly what enslaved means.

Well enslaved's definition is irrelevant. It's just an adjective describing the Daemon Unit. My original post was probably a bad choice of words there.

IF you choose to enslave the unit to the icon then you follow the rules of summoning from the icon for that unit instead of the normal rules for summoning. That is what enslaved would 'mean'.

Well enslaved's definition is irrelevant. It's just an adjective describing the Daemon Unit.

IF you choose to enslave the unit to the icon then you follow the rules of summoning from the icon for that unit instead of the normal rules for summoning. That is what enslaved would 'mean'.

But it doesn't say that.

It gives you an additional way to summon the daemons, but does not rule out them being summoned normally. The leap is, of course, very straightforward, but it is still based on an assumption that is not verifiable from the rules.

Now, that is how I play Daemon Icons, but I well understand that it is a house rule -- the RAW is simply unclear due to the lack of definition of 'enslaved'.

Ok, I see that.

But, the rule states "At the beginning of the game a unit may be enslaved WITHIN the icon"

So the Daemon unit is now inside the icon and therefore cannot come out until the icon is activated. Normally daemons are summoned "from the Warp".

The Daemon Icon summons from "within" itself.

Somewhat like ATSKNF the Daemon Icon is a special rule that modifies a basic one.

Daemonic Summoning has 4 basic requirements.

1. With 2 exceptions all daemons start in Reserve.

2.  Summoning starts on the second turn

3. You have to roll to summon a daemon unit

4. You have to make a scatter roll when the daemons arrive.

The discription of the Daemon Icon allows you to ignore 3 & 4 and modifies #1 by having the daemons "enslaved" within the icon. Nothing in the Daemon Icon's discription allows you to ignore #2.

The pharse " At the start of the Chaos player's turn..." refers to when this action can take place. At the start of his turn as opposed to in the Movement, Shooting, or Assault phrase. There is nothing to indicate that the phrase refers to the first turn.

The Daemon Icon allows a Daemon unit " to be automaticlly summoned without making a Reserves roll.'. But it doesn't negate having to wait until the second turn to perform that action. Just like  ATSKNF not negating the being further than 6" from an enemy unit to regroup.

 

 

 

 

Grotsnik-

Your number 2 isn't entirely relevant. Rolling for summoning starts on the second turn. It's the roll that makes daemons available, and when they are available, the template gets placed, etc.

The Daemon Icon lets you bypass the roll.

There is no rule that prevents summoning on the first turn. Rolls can't happen on the first turn, but the point of the Daemon Icon is that it lets you summon them without the roll.

It doesn't say that summoning starts on turn two, it simply states that starting with turn 2 you start rolling for summoning. The icon says that you can bring it in without making the reserves roll, which you wouldn't be able to do until turn two. To skip something you have to be eligible to do it in the first place.

No summoning on turn one because it never says you can summon on turn one. You can summon on turn two so you would be able to avoid your roll on turn two. I have no opinion on wether you are obligated to bring them in immediately or not, don't really care.

There is no rule that prevents summoning on the first turn.

Not a logical argument.

Grotsnik's #2 is more than relevant as you don't start your first roll until turn 2. The icon allows you to bypass that roll, you can't bypass a roll on turn one as it does not exist.

By process of elimination summoning on turn one is not legal no matter how you summon.

It doesn't say bypass the roll. It doesn't say do it instead of rolling.

It says without rolling. The only thing that prevents you from summoning on the first turn normally is the lack of the roll. When you have the ability to summon without the roll, you are no longer bound by that limitation.

It still doesn't allow you to ignore the "Starting with the second game turn" part of the daemon summoning rules.

All parts of the summon process "Start on the second game turn" not just the rolling.

Try this. Add to the parts of the Daemon Summoning rules the specific rules for the Daemon Icon. Remember the Daemon Icon does still act as a normal icon for summoning.

"Starting with the second game turn roll a d6 for each daemonic unit at the start of the turn, the enslaved daemon unit can be automatically summoned without this reserves roll. Place the large ordnance blast marker in contact with a model carrying the icon/Daemon Icon. Roll the scatter dice; do not move the template if a 'HIT' is rolled, otherwise move it 2D6" in the direction of the arrow. If summoning the Daemonic Unit enslaved to the Daemon Icon the daemons will not scatter so no roll is needed.

The Daemon Icon does not add "Starting on ANY turn" therefore it still must abide by the rules of summoning!

The "starting with the second game turn" applies, specifically, to rolling. You aren't violating that, because you're not rolling on the first turn. You're using an ability that lets you summon without rolling.

Adding text to rules doesn't help anyone.

Posted By Lowinor on 07/06/2006 9:23 AM
The "starting with the second game turn" applies, specifically, to rolling. You aren't violating that, because you're not rolling on the first turn. You're using an ability that lets you summon without rolling.

Adding text to rules doesn't help anyone.

Actually the "starting with the second turn" applies to "summoning" the roll is just a further part of that, which the icon allows you to ignore.

When do you start summoning normally? When you roll the dice second turn. What part of the icon says that you start summoning on the first turn? No part of it. Therefore you use the normal rules starting point, which is the second turn. Nothing about the Icon says that summoning occurres in a different order, you are just skipping the roll itself.

Your logic: Not rolling means it cancells the restriction on when you can summon because it doesn't say to follow the normal summoning procedure..

Following that logic: You can now summon the daemons during any phase because you aren't summoning normally anymore because it doesn't say you follow the normal summoning phrase of "at the beginning of the turn". You can also ignore scatter since it doesn't say that it still scatters, and you can make a conga line of daemons to the opponents deployment zone because it doesn't say to follow the normal restriction on how much room they can be deployed in.

But that would be stupid. You follow any rules that it does not replace, and it does not replace when you can summon, which normally starts at the beginning of the second phase. It only says that you don't roll, which you are perfectly capable of doing on that second turn.

Spoke with GW, Maryland HQ. After some discussion he stated that because a rule doesn't say you can't do something doesn't mean you can. The final point he made and after reading the posts here is there are two thought processes going on. You can bring in on turn #1, you can't bring in on turn #1. Flip a coin or play in your area the way you've been playing.
I have a question though. Has anyone had a ruling from a GW tournament on this issue?

RB

Posted By RB on 07/07/2006 11:32 AM
Spoke with GW, Maryland HQ. After some discussion he stated that because a rule doesn't say you can't do something doesn't mean you can. The final point he made and after reading the posts here is there are two thought processes going on. You can bring in on turn #1, you can't bring in on turn #1. Flip a coin or play in your area the way you've been playing.

RB

So, basically... They don't have a clue, either.

Posted By Arioc on 07/07/2006 12:58 PM

So, basically... They don't have a clue, either.

They never do.

Why oh why do people ask the Rulz boyz and redshirts/blackshirts like they have some sort of clue? These guys are gamerz just like you and me. They don't get SUPER SECRET info on designer intent, or go to SUPER SECRET meetings to discuss rules interpretaions. They just go with what they feel, just like most people. Some read more than others, just like most people. Some are stupid, just like most people.

Posted By RB on 07/07/2006 11:32 AM
Spoke with GW, Maryland HQ. After some discussion he stated that because a rule doesn't say you can't do something doesn't mean you can. The final point he made and after reading the posts here is there are two thought processes going on. You can bring in on turn #1, you can't bring in on turn #1. Flip a coin or play in your area the way you've been playing.
I have a question though. Has anyone had a ruling from a GW tournament on this issue?

RB

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Oh GW how I love thee.

The red gaks just outside of Boston said the opposite.  As they said: Since it clearly states the Reserves Rule, they come in on the reserves roll or reserve's time to come in. Granted they are not reserves in the classic sense but I have played it as they can come in on first turn. Let me tell you broken is a nice way of putting it.

Infiltrating chosen with a daemon icon backed by melta guns makes for an auto dead squad with deployment on turn one.  Imagine depoying  or infiltrating into 6 inches of cover, right our of LOS and then having the daemons running from it and then assaulting from it only to have cover fire from the marines.  What ever squad it is, it is almost guaranteed to be killed if 8 bloodletters are hitting it.

Its better sportsmanship to err on the side of not summoning on the first roll. I know the inevitabile "but RAW!!!!" will come but the RAW is unclear and should be decided in the most fair or sportsman like way.  Turn two auto summoning is still pretty scary since the ONLY thing that daemons dont have going for them is the fact the are "unpredictable".   They are the most reliable "unpredictable" unit in the game.