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Hey all, just some of my thoughts and experiences in the post AoC world,

I have come back to IW from WB now with the lack of AoC. IW have the mini one which affect -1/-2 and I have found that it is pretty good at providing defense against what really hurts the most, mass -1/-2 shots. I mean with the possessed/warp talons it is basically the same once the 5++ is factored in. I also like all the defensive buffs they can get like -1 damage on the possessed. Also they have a warlord trait that allows you to put a unit (not obliterators for some reason) back in Wanton Destruction which is good in combination with havocs or land raider.

Also if you have not used them, the traitor guard are well worth the additional 10 points over cultists. Being able to include a melta, plasma, and flamer in the unit plus the slightly better save, has made a big difference for me in several games (the melta gun helped finish a vehicle in one game, something cultists could never do). The enforcer/ogryn are fun, but overpriced and not really necessary. But I would take the traitor guard over cultists any day if you can get them.

You know the other thing about traitor guardsmen I just realized is that they would be exempt from the MoP and his sacrificial dagger rule (no cultists). 👍 *****WRONG******

Kangarupe wrote:
You know the other thing about traitor guardsmen I just realized is that they would be exempt from the MoP and his sacrificial dagger rule (no cultists). 👍

Traitor guardsmen have the CULTISTS keyword, no sacrifial dagger on them.

 p5freak wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
You know the other thing about traitor guardsmen I just realized is that they would be exempt from the MoP and his sacrificial dagger rule (no cultists). 👍

Traitor guardsmen have the CULTISTS keyword, no sacrifial dagger on them.

Goddamn you’re right! oh well…

Having the Cultist keyword is actually good though. It lets you use the strat that brings back d3+3 (I think maybe +1 no book in front of me), which you would actually use on these guys, especially if you lost the plasma due to overcharge.

Tide only works on a CULTIST MOB so doesn't work on plain jane CULTISTS like the Traitor Guardsmen Squad.

Sometimes i wonder if people ever read rules.

Wow I never noticed that there even was a separate “cultist mob” key word compared to “cultist”. And I am usually good about that. Just too many key words for everything. Oh well I guess that is to stop from bringing back the Cultist HQ unit which I don’t use. Sorry all.

I still think they are better than normal cultists and worth the points increase but now the enforcer is less useful as keeping them alive against moral is less useful.

I'm still not sold on the Traitor Guard, but then I don't like Cultists and I have also been running low troops/obsec in quite a few lists recently across various factions. A mixture of anything on an objective is often dead and other factions often have better obsec rules (obsec and count as double, count as ten, etc) that make your own obsolete.

For me though Cultists + 2/3 of a Mark on a squad or Cultists + 1 or 2 melee weapons on champion(s) tend to be what I would take over Traitor Guard. But, it is a tiny difference.

Everyone still using Termies despite the cost increase? As Black Legion, I find them tough to give up, even at the increased cost.... Abaddon doling out his re-rolls to their 4 shot combi-bolters + putting them in Wanton Massacre for exploding 6's coupled with a strat like Daemon shells is just delightful. Chosen are nice and considerably cheaper but they just don't seem to be as good. Curious on what others are doing.

I wouldn't blame you. Terminators aren't much more expensive and literally have twice the shooting.

Kangarupe wrote:
Everyone still using Termies despite the cost increase? As Black Legion, I find them tough to give up, even at the increased cost.... Abaddon doling out his re-rolls to their 4 shot combi-bolters + putting them in Wanton Massacre for exploding 6's coupled with a strat like Daemon shells is just delightful. Chosen are nice and considerably cheaper but they just don't seem to be as good. Curious on what others are doing.

Yep, still often using my termies. It's really got nothing to do with pts/rules though. They're some of my favorite models in my Chaos force, so they'd have to have some insane pts increase to see me sideline them.
I'm running Chosen as well. They're dressed up as Dark Angel Fallen.

I know crusade isn't talked about much here but I had a question I needed answers to. What would be the best boons to give to a daemon prince? I will be using the requisition to turn my lord into one and while he is losing a lot, I think he is gaining a lot too. I have 8 upgrades to purchase and have no clue what to get. If anyone can help that would be fantastic.

The legion is Black Legion and mark is khorne if that helps. Not sure what weapon I will give him yet.

Serpentine Fangs +1 to wound when charging or heroic intervening looks solid (can be negated by transhuman stratagem if You play a lot vs loyalist scum).

Dark Blessing -1 to hit defensive bonus woukd be very helpful against heavy close combat oponents (Deamon Prince isn't so tough)

Daemon prince can't get chaos boons. He is restricted to the monster table in core book. He also can't take any Infantry only crusade relics.

Its possible to get the Chaos Boon and then ascent to Daemonhood (2RP) keepeing Chaos Boons, traits, relics (if eligible for type of unit)

 Xyxel wrote:
Its possible to get the Chaos Boon and then ascent to Daemonhood (2RP) keepeing Chaos Boons, traits, relics (if eligible for type of unit)

I see now that you are correct. I misread that part. Thanks.

Played another test game with the AoO list I posted before.

This time versus a highly optimized DA list, with two DW blocks, Command Squad, three RW Speeders, Infiltrators etc.

Again, a crushing victory.

I used Cultists to screen out the firebase (Havocs, Legionaries, Contemptor, Characters and Mirror War Dog), hidden behind BLOS.

Chosen also hidden away.

Turn 1 RW Speeders dart forward kill Cultists, but can't get angles on anything else. Combined weight of fire from the firebase and Chosen kill the Speeders; I spend a command point to make the Havocs Lascannons explode (Slaanesh strat).

Chosen use MoP trick to get a Veil charge on an Infiltrator unit. I have to reroll the charge and use another command point to turn the Chosen into Word Bearers. All buffs (Diabolic Strength etc.) on the Chosen. Infiltrators are killed.

Turn 2 DW show up: charge the OS War Dog, which I had moved up onto the home objective and second unit charge Chosen and Veil Sorcerer. The War Dog is destroyed and the DW consolidate onto the objective. Against the Chosen and Sorcerer only two Chosen are killed and attacks versus the Sorcerer miss the mark (he has a 3+ from the Plate). In return, half the DW are killed by the Chosen and Sorcerer.

In my turn, I fall back with the Chosen: I decide not to use the fall back and shoot/charge strat there, but could have. Decimators show up and finish off the the remaining DW on the Chosen/Sorcerer side of the board. In my DZ I bring on the Helbrutes, preparing for an easy charge on the DW there. I spend two command points to turn the Apostle, who is inside the firebase, into a melee missile and cast Diabolic Strength on him also. Everything shoots the DW in my DZ. Between shooting, psychic and melee they are dropped to four models and their interrupt kills the Apostle. However, the Helbrutes then finish the DW off.

Again, as with the last game its basically GG at this point.

The list has been performing very well (100% win rate so far) so I'm thinking about tournaments now.

Best,
Samii.

wouldn't the slaaneshi strat only make 1 lascannon explode? it only alters one die roll unless I'm reading it entirely wrong.

Are wings worth taking on a Daemon Prince of Khorne?

100% a Khorne DP is a pure melee weapon and being able to fly through a wall in the movement phase as well as moving 50% faster in general is very important.

The only DP I sometimes don't put wings on is a Death Guard DP as they only get 2" extra movement (25%) not the 4" (50%). But they still lose a decent amount of speed having to run around walls.

I think Samii's interpretation of the Murderous Perfection strat is correct...however how are you rotating Ion Shields on your War Dog? I thought taking a super heavy aux only gave you access to Marks and not relics/WLT/or Strats from CK?

Lord Blackscale wrote:Are wings worth taking on a Daemon Prince of Khorne?

100%, yes. Wings are always worth it on any DP, but especially Khorne. they need to be in combat ASAP.

nathan2004 wrote:I think Samii's interpretation of the Murderous Perfection strat is correct...however how are you rotating Ion Shields on your War Dog? I thought taking a super heavy aux only gave you access to Marks and not relics/WLT/or Strats from CK?

Murderous Perfection is a single dice roll only. It's not terrible with lascannons, but probably overkill in most scenarios. Usually best saved for the damage roll unless you roll really badly on the hits.

Samii wrote:
Yep, the Decimators in particular benefit from the (Assault Weapons) Doctrines more and it fits them coming in from reserve.

The Helbrutes and Decimators in Black Legion are excellent in reserves because they can be more easily positioned to get +1 to hit and (again credit to Dean here) the Fire Frenzy strat lets you shoot a Helbrute out of sequence, which can really catch the opponent unawares.

Before the free reserves, Helbrutes just couldn't get position, but now the best configuration (Multi-melta, Fist with Heavy Flamer) are a threat.

Best,
Samii.

The great trick, Samii hints towards, is:
You Helbrute gets shot at, then you can shot back and shot the one that shot you, or the closest visible unit!

So, most people go from their backline big guns towards the smaller guns. And that is your chance, they shot you from their backline and that first shooting unit doesn't finish your Helbrute, you use the stratagem and shoot not back but a worthy closest visible unit.
For the sake of an example an enemy multimelta/fist Helbrute that hasn't shot. You get a normal free shooting with the stratagem and if you kill it, then you dodged the multimelta shoots of it and avoided a very likely Helbrute charging into you. Suddenly, instead of a safe kill and the enemy Helbrute in the position of your helbrute after the fight Phase, your Helbrute still stands and the enemy helbrute not and your enemy has to rethink his plans and reallocate assets.

RE the Superheavy Auxiliary not unlocking CK strats that's a good point.

I had missed that. I never really used the CK strats though: I would tend to use strats on the CSM units.

The buffs from Daemon Surge, Objective Secured and benefits from Favors are still enough for me to include the War Dog though.

With the Slaanesh strat it makes the Havocs a bit more dependable. On Turn 1 any time you roll a 2 with that unit, which without full rerolls is common, you are nearly doubling the firepower output. If you spike then its a win, either way.

EDIT: RE CK Superheavy Auxiliary could someone weigh in on that?

Its not clear to me that it doesn't unlock strats, but it isn't a big deal either way.

Best,
Samii.

Straight from the CK dex:

"If your army is Battle-forged, <DREAD HOUSEHOLD> units (excluding DREADBLADE units) in CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments gain access to the following dread household rules, provided that Detachment contains at least 3 models (excluding DREADBLADE models). Such a Detachment is referred to as a <DREAD HOUSEHOLD> Detachment." So since it's only 1 model, it doesn't get access to Relics/WLTs/or Strats.

Are DREAD HOUSEHOLD what gives access to the strats though?

I thought it was any Chaos Knights Detachment and then there is a special exemption for Superheavy Auxiliary Detachments, in terms of counting as a Chaos Knights Detachment.

Could be completely misreading this though and either way it doesn't affect my list.

EDIT: Nevermind I see it now: you're right.

EDIT EDIT: On second glance, I'm seeing that DREAD HOUSEHOLD can be replaced with DREADBLADE in the strats, so again I don't see DREAD HOUSEHOLD being the thing that grants access to strats, just the Chaos Knights Detachment?

Best,
Samii.

Master of Possession (MoP) is it worth having him run with a group of Possesed? MOP 6", Pos9" Cursed earth 6" gives 4++ over the 5++ and Master of Union MoU 6" +1 Strength and -1 extra AP.

However, sacrifice can't be used on Possessed and the other Malefic Powers have a range of 18".

I think MoP with 3 Obliterators holding a mid range objective is better.

Cursed Earth on Obliterators and either Mutated Invigoration to add +1 Toughness (6) for more defense or Warp Marked on an enemy unit to get +1 to wound rolls is better. Add another figure within range to cast Prescience and give the Obliterators a 2+ to hit.

Any opinions on running MoP appreciated, of course the Slaanesh Mark combo with terminators is known

I've been noticing your posts for a while.

I feel the strategic error you seem to make over and over again in your posts is you have a singular path and plan for each unit in your army and it seems your army as a whole.

I ran a MoP and a Terminator Sorcerer in my most recent games. The MoP had Mutated Invigoration and Pact of Flesh and the Sorcerer had Diabolic Strength and Warptime.

At no point in my list building and strategic planning were those spells "allocated" to a specific unit for the battle. Instead I had multiple plans for each spell.

So for Pact of Flesh, it could go on the 10 Possessed with the Black Rune, or it could go on 5 Chosen out of reserves to get a shorter charge, or it could go on Abaddon to make him functionally unkillable in some scenarios. But, it also sometimes went on a Havoc squad to get a single Lascannon or Chaincannon back. Bringing back a 30 point Havoc model isn't as cool as bringing back a 90 point Obliterator, but even if you just bring back 5 Havocs in a game and nothing else, you've gained 150 points of value from your MoP who costs less than 150 points and who has cast a second spell each turn as well.

Now, the interesting thing about the units listed (Possessed, Chosen, Abaddon, Havocs) is that all of them can also get some use out of Mutated Invigoration, Diabolic Strength and Warptime.

So on a specific turn I might cast Mutated Invigoration to make Khorne Chosen S7 instead of S6 and then hide the tanky Possessed brick out of LOS so they don't need the +1T. Or I might drop Diabloic Strength on a Havoc Champion (with a 5 point weapon) so he can clear out an infiltrating unit in combat.

So, with hopefully a new found understanding that you don't just bring a MoP with Cursed Earth and Master of the Union for a singular purpose and plan, the answer to your question is...

It can be good to bring Cursed Earth if you are taking a brick of 10 Possessed with the Black Rune and are finding you need to stand out in the open and survive for a turn. Going from a 5++ to a 4++ against an AP2 D3 weapon is a good jump in survivability.

But you have identified the weakness, in that once your Possessed run off they will be out of range.

However, if you for example Cursed Earth near your Possessed turn 1~2 and then Cursed Earth near something else turn 3~5 or even cast smite instead, you may still get value from it in the game. Think about it this way, Pact of Flesh brings back 1 Possessed per turn. If you make 6 saves against a D3 AP2 attack for just one turn, the 4++ will 'bring back' 1 Possessed as well. If you make 12 saves, it brings back 2. Combining with Pact of Flesh, the difference could be between taking 12 saves, losing 8 and Fleshing back 1 to give a squad of 3 and taking 12 saves, losing 6 and Fleshing back 1 to give a squad of 5. A squad of 3 doesn't feel like it will do much, while a squad of 5 feels like it could go off and do something useful on the next turn. Although this example is reminding me of why cowering behind walls is the best plan in most situations.

So make sure you have secondary units that can benefit from the Cursed Earth later in the game. Obliterators coming in turn 2/3 in to the space vacated by the Possessed are an option and have late game synergy with a MoP with Pact of Flesh. Venomcrawlers that aren't running forward too early are also an option and also have early and late game synergy with the MoP in other ways.

Similarly have secondary units that can benefit from Master of the Union. So make sure you have some 5 man Possessed/Warp Talons who hide early in the game, move near the MoP in the mid game, then get the buff and move out in the late game.

Finally, I do have to ask this about the plethora of posts you keep making with so many list designs. Are you actually playtesting any of these lists? Playing 40k is an important part of the game in my opinion.

 nathan2004 wrote:
Straight from the CK dex:

"If your army is Battle-forged, <DREAD HOUSEHOLD> units (excluding DREADBLADE units) in CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments gain access to the following dread household rules, provided that Detachment contains at least 3 models (excluding DREADBLADE models). Such a Detachment is referred to as a <DREAD HOUSEHOLD> Detachment." So since it's only 1 model, it doesn't get access to Relics/WLTs/or Strats.

Sorry for being pedantic here: these kind of rules queries always tickle my brain, to the extent that I can't think about anything else .

But I'm pretty sure that just having a single Superheavy Auxiliary with a DREADBLADE would unlock the generic CK strats. You wouldn't get the House-specific ones though and retain AGENT OF CHAOS.

Unless he's the Warlord, you wouldn't get Relics or Traits, as normal.

Can a CK player chime on this?

Again, if I'm misreading apologies.

Best,
Samii.