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 Overread wrote:
This actually fits the lore closer than a combined arms demon army because in theory that's how most of them manifest.

Nah, that's just something new GW introduced alongside the gameplay split, not something that caused it.

I've been a Daemons fan since their big overhaul into their modern form back in ~2007, and for the bulk of that time, mixed Daemons was the default with no justification needed. Most Daemon army book covers has mixed Daemons together. White Dwarf narrative battle reports are packed with mixed-Daemon invasions. Go back to old Warhammer Fantasy and you'll see the Keeper of Secrets N'kari be accompanied by Khorne Daemons when invading Ulthuan as a matter of course - why would they not when there are mortals to hunt? I can open my 9th edition Daemons codex right now and see that posterboy incursions plentifully feature mixed-god assaults with it not being presented as in any way unusual. Every Dawn of War game that has had Daemons has had them mixed together. I could go on and on. There's so much material here.

The focus on separation began as a distinctly Age of Sigmar thing, which was rooted in Age of Sigmar's particular setting. In AoS, Chaos is ascendant and has conquered the majority of the realms. Most of humanity lives under Chaos rule. And because Chaos is the dominant force in AoS, it has started infighting more, simply because there is more room for it to do so. But this is not the case in 40k, WHFB and 30k. The majority of the setting has not been conquered by Chaos. So, Chaos presents more of a united front.

I have seen others also believe that "oh, mixed Daemons is not lore accurate, it must go" and I really really chafe at that take. It's borderline revisionism from GW's side. GW isn't splitting up the Daemons to better follow the lore, GW is shifting the lore to set up the faction split, which I assume is done for the same reason they split everything these days - bookkeeping and finance. Nothing more glorious to it than that.

...And yes, I and my display case full of mixed Daemons are not best pleased.

 Overread wrote:
In both games you can take demons as allies in a Chaos Marines/Slaves to Darkness army.

Not any more. AoS has removed allies. S2D have to resort to either taking a regiment of renown (a fixed handful of units from a single god) or go Legion of the First Prince (which is a shadow of its former self, and frankly isn't deserving of its name).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...Anyway, to direct this digression back to the topic of LI, I'd love to see Daemonic models feature, but I think it's highly unlikely. Mainline 30k hasn't seen anything Daemonic be released since 1.0 (unless you count the fairly abandoned Infernus Abomination, I suppose) so it seems an unfavoured child to say the least.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Overread wrote:
This actually fits the lore closer than a combined arms demon army because in theory that's how most of them manifest.

The focus on separation began as a distinctly Age of Sigmar thing, which was rooted in Age of Sigmar's particular setting. In AoS, Chaos is ascendant and has conquered the majority of the realms. Most of humanity lives under Chaos rule. And because Chaos is the dominant force in AoS, it has started infighting more, simply because there is more room for it to do so. But this is not the case in 40k, WHFB and 30k. The majority of the setting has not been conquered by Chaos. So, Chaos presents more of a united front.

[

To be fair, GW has flip-flopped on that issue several times. Back when (5th edition WHFB) Chaos army books came in a box of their own, the design guideline was something like "Chaos should be anything goes, here's your toolbox to make it happen", when they introduced the Demon-Mortal "horizontal" split and the god-specific "vertical" split as a major design constraint, complete with various gifts and boons that could bend or break the way it usually worked. Then, with 6th edition and the corresponding, much stricter army building rules, the "normal" way to compose things changed again, and then again with "Storm of Chaos" and Demon Legion army lists. Meanwhile, 40k was in full "We need to have variants (of Space Marines) back after the thorough cull the shift to 3rd edition brought, and started giving out variant army lists like candy, including attempts at specific Chaos Legions, and thus, god-specific, but "horizontally" integrated army lists including Legionnaires, Demons and LotD in some way. Of course, 40k would go on the get their own Black Crusade/Storm of Chaos lists, a Demon codex, and another shakeup...

Much of it was driven by gameplay needs: under "No Model, No rules", stuff like army books where 1/3rd of the entries needed to be converted could no longer fly, and the relatively small assortment of "classic" demons with models was not exactly conductive to interesting, or even legal, army composition, so both systems needed some sort of solution that, at the time, were dictated by real-world constraints rather than by solid, in-setting rules about how the world worked.

The big problem with Chaos? It’s all valid representations.

Forces with a single god dedication and a tight focus on a certain wing? Perfectly valid.

A real hodge podge of a bit of everything including god dedications? Perfectly valid.

And absolutely everything in between.

In the relatively modern day? IA:13 came closest to just how chaotic a Chaos force could be. Absolutely spoiled for choice in options and visions. And at least in 2nd Ed Heresy? The Cults and Militias list was the direct descendant of IA:13. I don’t think it was the exact same list. But it wasn’t far off.

I agree that is Chaos, and if you ask me it's not a problem. I think it's more of a problem to want to pigeonhole Chaos into being only four strictly thematically segregated and colour-coded groups. That isn't really "chaotic" to me.

For me, the least chaotic thing is that a daemon must fit neatly into one of the four immutable categories. I think LI/HH is a nice setting in which to play with this (to me) somewhat tired taxonomy, and have daemons that are less, well, defined. This also fits with how they are presented in the HH novels, where most manifestations do not seen to fit the stereotypes as tightly as in 40k stories. (Except that the four gods are of course quite distinct when they make an appearance.)

I love that too honestly. 30k even presents it nicely with undivided/Dark King Daemons, such as Samus - while Brutes could be argued to simply be of unknown alignment, Samus in particular is something entirely his own.

I wonder if we even will see Daemons in LI. I also guess Custodes are the next big new Faction for the Game, but im sure SPace Marines of the LA will stay the focus of the Game.

With the the possible Focus on Istvaan V we could maybe see Siege Rules with the next Journal and focus on the IW. - Breachers and more Infantry Weapon options could also Fit in such a release.

I expect they’ll be along at some point, possibly around the same time as Custodes and other Special Emperor Toys.

That way, Loyalist and Traitor get their own unique toys and presumably perks thereof, without one side gaining an advantage.

Will they be fully fledged forces in their own right? I bloody hope so. But I can see them potentially starting as Meant To Be Allies.

Y'know I don't think I've seen the Ruinstorm Brutes before.



https://www.warhammer.com/en-US/shop/Ruinstorm-Daemon-Brutes-2019?srsltid=AfmBOorR53RF6j0eQJxkXTXIyDwJWN-Xc196-uw1SZNwnKGr_0gp9QUL

They kind of look like stretched out, like they're extending into too many dimensions at once, a bit like the old Gumby style Bloodletters.

Of course they're 10 pieces of resin each, and FW prices, but not bad designs. I'd like to see a bit more technorganic stuff with them, like they were building their bodies out of whatever corpses and rubble were around.

I wouldn't mind seeing them as an unaligned daemon unit either.