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 koooaei wrote:

 zachwho wrote:
hey all looking for some experienced advice on uses of the following formations:

bullyboyz, i don't know how else to use them, expect maybe running them with the council and a blitz formation?

Bully boyz are great with Blitz brigade or just 3 wagonz. Some people like putting them in trucks. Works well when you get the 1-st turn. Doesn't really work when you get 2-d. But that's a matter of preference.

It seems to me that Bully Boyz are begging for a speedfreaksesq trukk spam list. Something like this:


I like DA 'Finking Kap because it lets you infiltrate the MANZ and Warbikers most of the time, and you often have a chance to get Stealth in Ruins or Night Fighting. If you do have 2nd turn, put your Warbikers out front of your trukks. Jink if they get targeted by anything. This gives you Trukks at least a 5+ cover save. If you lose a MANZ trukk, shift the MANZ over to one of the Trukks with Boyz riding in it.

tag8833 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 zachwho wrote:
hey all looking for some experienced advice on uses of the following formations:

bullyboyz, i don't know how else to use them, expect maybe running them with the council and a blitz formation?

Bully boyz are great with Blitz brigade or just 3 wagonz. Some people like putting them in trucks. Works well when you get the 1-st turn. Doesn't really work when you get 2-d. But that's a matter of preference.

It seems to me that Bully Boyz are begging for a speedfreaksesq trukk spam list. Something like this:

Spoiler:

Bully Boyz:
5 Manz in Trukk (RR)
5 Manz in Trukk (RR)
5 Manz in Trukk (RR)

CAD
Warboss on Bike with PK and DA 'Finking Kap (or Lucky Stikk)
Painboy on Bike with Boss pole.

Mek with Rokkit

10 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob(BC, BP) in Trukk (RR)
10 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob(BC, BP) in Trukk (RR)
10 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob(BC, BP) in Trukk (RR)
10 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob(BC, BP) in Trukk (RR)

14 Warbikers w/ Nob(PK)

Mek Gunz (2 Kannon, 3 Traktor Kannon) w/ 3 Ammo runts.

I like DA 'Finking Kap because it lets you infiltrate the MANZ and Warbikers most of the time, and you often have a chance to get Stealth in Ruins or Night Fighting. If you do have 2nd turn, put your Warbikers out front of your trukks. Jink if they get targeted by anything. This gives you Trukks at least a 5+ cover save. If you lose a MANZ trukk, shift the MANZ over to one of the Trukks with Boyz riding in it.

I haven't had any experience with the bully boys, but to me I would always think that bringing a couple extra trukks would be a very strong force multipler. As lets be honest, those MANZ in that formation are pretty nasty, like Koooaei said, works well on first turn, but not so much second. Which I am assuming is due to those trukks being popped and now your MANZ are walking. Simply by bringing a couple extra trukks it means you can pick up which ever unit of MANZ gets their trukk popped (as they aren't likely to take any wounds from it either) and have them crashing back into action simply a turn later. Also, for that measely 30 pts, you dont need to disembark that boys unit to have the MANZ shuffle over, you can simply catapult that slugga trukk straight forwards. So this way you 'hopefully' have no units footslogging it.

I'd heavily advice against fielding that many trukks. If your opponent has a decent amount of high-rate, medium strength shooting, he can easily strand half your army if he gets first turn, pretty much losing you the game right there. You can safely assume that all your MANz will be losing their trukk as soon as your opponent gets too shoot, just because the massive difference in power compared to those boyz. Target saturation only works when all targets are of the same value. Just spamming AV10 and hoping for your opponent to pick the wrong trukks to shoot isn't going to help at all.

For that reason, any more than two units of trukkboyz would be a waste of points. Another unit of warbikers would add much more to your army, as would larger squads of buggies or koptaz. More mek gunz would also work well, since T7 draws attention from the same guns as AV10.

Personally, I'd just combine the blitz brigade with bully boyz, put boyz with warboss or painboy in the other two trukks, add a support unit of your choice and call it a day.

As for the Council of Waaagh!, it's not a very competitive choice, and most equipment is pretty obvious. Give the warbosses MA (the unit is S&P anyways thanks to Ghaz), buy the mega-force field relic for the big mek, keep the nob unit as cheap as possible and buy the dedicated battlewagon. Add relics as you see fit, though most are just over-costed gimmicks. Also note that a mek without MA can have both the MFF and a SAG.
The only less obvious option is putting the Mek and the nobz on bikes to bump average toughness to 5. It also allows you to pull shenanigans with bikes, like driving 12" without leaving coherency and pulling the slow parts of the unit into combats they couldn't have reached otherwise or spreading the unit far enough to enable multi-charges (who cares about a charge bonus when you have a metric ton of S10 attacks and rampage).

On the other hand, you can purchase fast attacks empty trucks to screen the full ones or to place this 3 full trucks close with the ones so that you could embark and still go 24'. That'd force the opopnent to waste shots on empty trucks.

"Screen" means providing 5+ cover, there is no way to position a trukk model to make it completely blocks sight to a trukk behind it. You could do pretty much the same by just driving them behind terrain. A mob of Warbikers also covers 25% of a trukk, so no need to waste points on useless vehicles.

Either way, 5+ cover is not going to prevent your opponent from killing three trukks, he'll just ignore the empty trukks. In addition, when there are trukks in front of them, the MANz didn't go at full speed.

To be honest, the Bully Boyz plus battlewagons or a blitz brigade is just nasty.

The Bully Boyz formation takes away the biggest problem with mega armour by making them fearless. WS5 is just a bonus.

The only other weakness is speed. They can't afford to footslog, but trukks are made of wafers. Battlewagons give you a unit which remains a credible threat after they've dumped out their troops, and have enough transport capacity to allow you to scale up the bully boyz units if you want to.

Jidmah wrote:
As for the Council of Waaagh!, it's not a very competitive choice, and most equipment is pretty obvious. Give the warbosses MA (the unit is S&P anyways thanks to Ghaz), buy the mega-force field relic for the big mek, keep the nob unit as cheap as possible and buy the dedicated battlewagon. Add relics as you see fit, though most are just over-costed gimmicks. Also note that a mek without MA can have both the MFF and a SAG.
The only less obvious option is putting the Mek and the nobz on bikes to bump average toughness to 5. It also allows you to pull shenanigans with bikes, like driving 12" without leaving coherency and pulling the slow parts of the unit into combats they couldn't have reached otherwise or spreading the unit far enough to enable multi-charges (who cares about a charge bonus when you have a metric ton of S10 attacks and rampage).

This sounds hilarious fun simply in what you'd be able to convert and what would actually be in the unit
Ghaz,
2 biker bosses
a SAG and MFF mek
and then the rest! Would look so funny on field, having the bikes assault ahead of the unit as the rear end slowly wander in to the fray

Jidmah wrote:"Screen" means providing 5+ cover, there is no way to position a trukk model to make it completely blocks sight to a trukk behind it. You could do pretty much the same by just driving them behind terrain. A mob of Warbikers also covers 25% of a trukk, so no need to waste points on useless vehicles.

Either way, 5+ cover is not going to prevent your opponent from killing three trukks, he'll just ignore the empty trukks. In addition, when there are trukks in front of them, the MANz didn't go at full speed.

I think what he's suggesting is that the MANZ stand outsside the empty trukks, with a couple spare. That way which ever he blows up, you get into the others. The trukks will LOS the MANZ and even if they are caught in the explosion they are MANz. I still dont think that less than 100 points spent on spare trukks is in anyway a 'waste' of points. it provides you with mobility redundancy, that can be used as later turn transport to objectives, as LOS blocks to open field boys. The thing I see with bully boys in comparison to MANz missiles and trukk boys is this; Trukk boys you target saturate with similar threat units; therefore nullifying his target choice, in this case you want to hit with simply as many trukks as possible. MANz missiles on the other hand are cheap instant threats that the enemy simply must engage or they will chew back their points cost quite happily.

Whereas; bullyboys are like you said; a much more of a threat than the rest of the trukk boys, so they will be main priority. So by holding a spare trukk for each essentially allows you to negate their first turn shooting. As if they manage to strand 1-2 of the bullyboy units and then next turn they are already back in a trukk his shooting has been negated by those 100 points. Would you pay 100 pts to effectively get first turn? If one of those MANz units makes it into combat a turn earlier through the use of a spare trukk im pretty confident they'd make those points back in that turn.

Solar Shock wrote:

Jidmah wrote:"Screen" means providing 5+ cover, there is no way to position a trukk model to make it completely blocks sight to a trukk behind it. You could do pretty much the same by just driving them behind terrain. A mob of Warbikers also covers 25% of a trukk, so no need to waste points on useless vehicles.

Either way, 5+ cover is not going to prevent your opponent from killing three trukks, he'll just ignore the empty trukks. In addition, when there are trukks in front of them, the MANz didn't go at full speed.

I think what he's suggesting is that the MANZ stand outsside the empty trukks, with a couple spare. That way which ever he blows up, you get into the others. The trukks will LOS the MANZ and even if they are caught in the explosion they are MANz. I still dont think that less than 100 points spent on spare trukks is in anyway a 'waste' of points. it provides you with mobility redundancy, that can be used as later turn transport to objectives, as LOS blocks to open field boys.

Yep, that was the 2-d part of my proposition. Once again, Solar Shock easilly gets the whole picture!

And also, i don't find it impossible to completely block los to one truck with another. It just needs some perspective positioning. It won't block 100% of field but usually the opponent doesn't have ALL his line denced with anti-tank.

I see, that might work sometimes, but even six trukks isn't that hard to stop, plus you're now spending 70 points per unit on trukks, only 40-50 points short of getting a battlewagon.

The issue with trukks is that you can pretty much always see something through their wheels, through the gap between the drivers and the passengers or over the heads of the drivers. The roll bar of the trukk is a shootable piece and pretty much always visible over a trukk standing in front of it. It is possible to block sight to a single gun by placing two trukks facing the gun right behind each other, but minimal movement make the trukk behind it visible again. When using a laser-pointer and counting any flicker of red light on the trukk as shootable (obviously not reflections... and yes, somebody tried that against me), you'll almost always find something sticking out to be shot.

Anti-tank isn't needed to kill trukks, anything with S6 and up will do a good job destroying them, actual anti-tank will just tear right through them. A trukk penned by something with AP1 is all but dead. For that reason target saturation doesn't really work, too many guns which are commonly used across all armies do a good job at killing them.

Therefore, you aren't going to fix the issue of your mini-death-stars losing their flimsy transport by simply throwing more flimsy transports to shoot in the mix. If your opponent's S6-7 weapons are busy shooting the warbikers racing at them, high strength AP3 weaponry is shooting the mek gunz that are destroying his vehicles or infantry and crashing his planes and his lascannons/meltas are trying to stop a battlewagon which is delivering a MA Stikk Warboss into his ranks, then your trukks have a good chance of survival. When he just has to pick trukks from most important to least important, no unit of "two wound terminators with chainfists, fearless and WS5!" is going to be riding a trukk for long.

Trukks for bully boyz is very dicey. I always buy mine battlewagons, it is just a better option. You could then chuck some trukk boyz in there because your opponent is in some serious trouble with three wagons of fearless meganobz steaming 18" turn 1 straight down the pipe. It will force them to react to you rather than pick away.

As far as those trukk boyz, while they will mess you up if they get first turn, if you get first turn you will set them up for a serious nightmare scenario. 18" battlewagons and 24" trukks will leave you just shrugging at them as they try to decide how or what to shoot.

EDIT; double post mess up

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can agree with all the points Jidmah is stating.

But in continuation of the debate; The idea of the amount of spare trukks becomeing excessive, does then naturally lead to why not BWs? But at the same time, At the initial onset;

Its turn 1, your going second, you are on the edge of your deployment and all your bullyboy trukks have been destroyed. If you dont have any other form of transport how are they getting across the table? thats gona be 3-4 turns of walking.

At this point its irrelevant what else is in the list, its irrelevant whether your going to win or lose(in regards to the bullyboys here), because at this point those bully boys are doing nothing (possibly they will be ensuring units wont come towards your table edge and a few other little things), but by and large they are currently worth not a lot of points. The enemy isn't going to shoot them, he's now moved down the priority chain and whatever else that is a threat in your army is next; whether thats more trukks he's simply going to cut through or side armour on BWs.

But with 3 trukks, you are for 100 points basically re-activating the threat of those bullyboys, they then again become something that he will have to deal with, they are no longer dead in the water. So they are a turn behind the other trukks or whatever else is in your army, but now instead of simply;

Shoot bully trukks
Shoot boys trukks
Shoot boys
win game

Hes got to think, well if I shoot those boys trukks I leave the MANZ, who are something pretty scary, or shoot the bully boys again, yeh they are now walking again if he does shoot them, but it also means for 2 whole turns hes taken out 6 trukks (obviously not in all cases will he take six, could be none could be all, this is a dice game and some lists will be hard counters others wont be able to handle it.), your boys are now probably gona get into assault, possibly unharmed, which isn't something to scoff at, those boys will still deal quite a lot of damage, tie up units and potentially allow your MANz to see combat.

So now you force decisions;

Case 1;

Shoot bully trukks

Shoot re-embarked bully trukks

Shoot boys trukks

(in this case the boys are now assaulting/ have already assaulted)

Case 2;

Shoot bully trukks

shoot boys trukks

Shoot bullys trukks

In this case your possibly not assaulting, but your units including your MANz are on his door steps.

Im not trying to say bully boys; trukks > wagons
I just dont think its as simple as wagons being the only effective thing for their transport. I really want to test this now But I dont have bullyboys might bring an extra trukk to a couple games and see how it pans out.

Issue is, those trukk boyz aren't scary at all, so there is little to reason to shoot them over the bully boyz' trukks.

From experience, most 1500 point armies can take out 3, maybe 4 trukks in one turn if they put their mind to it and they are neither tailoring nor bringing a crappy list. At 1750/1850 four trukks are pretty much a given, at 2000 they might even catch a fifth one. When facing armies exceptionally well equipped to handle AV10, which includes, but is not limited to most common eldar or tau lists, you can easily increase that number by 50%.

Note that I'm also not arguing against putting bully boyz in trukks. I'm just saying that you need some actual threats to draw fire from them if you do. Trukk boyz manage to kill two squads of troops if you're lucky, there is no way that someone is going to shoot them instead of five MANz that murder everything they touch.

I see where you guys are coming from dismissing trukks as a viable transport for bully boyz. I haven't run them in Trukks, or Battlewagons or seen them played. But I have played against Trukks many, many times, and I think you are underestimating their durability. With 'Da Finkin Kap you are probably going to get either night fighting, stealth in ruins or infiltrate. So you are looking at a 4+ cover for your Trukks on turn 1, and a reasonable chance that you can hide 2-3 out of LOS.

In those situations, you are losing 2 trukks at most, so you Bully Boyz are getting moved 24" Your Warbikers are moving, and you've got a turn 2 charge.

I am not a fan of Bully Boyz in a Blitz Brigade, because
1) Most tournaments don't let you run 2 formations.
2) That is a ton of points. At 1850 you don't have room for basically anything else.

Taking a dedicated BW for each Bully Boy group is a tad more attractive, but still seems excessive.

Jidmah is correct. If you see megas in trukks and boyz in trukks, the megaz will be the ones getting the lead thrown at them. Which is really why you need to spring for wagons on them.

Now all of this assumes you don't get turn 1. So really, you could still be fine half the time, or even slightly more than half the time give n the vagaries of random dice rolling. You would also get to deploy second and place units in cover, behind buildings, etc, giving them even more of a chance to survive, but going with the wagons is just a better choice when you are investing so much in that formation.

 Jidmah wrote:
I see, that might work sometimes, but even six trukks isn't that hard to stop, plus you're now spending 70 points per unit on trukks, only 40-50 points short of getting a battlewagon.

The issue with trukks is that you can pretty much always see something through their wheels, through the gap between the drivers and the passengers or over the heads of the drivers. The roll bar of the trukk is a shootable piece and pretty much always visible over a trukk standing in front of it. It is possible to block sight to a single gun by placing two trukks facing the gun right behind each other, but minimal movement make the trukk behind it visible again. When using a laser-pointer and counting any flicker of red light on the trukk as shootable (obviously not reflections... and yes, somebody tried that against me), you'll almost always find something sticking out to be shot.

Anti-tank isn't needed to kill trukks, anything with S6 and up will do a good job destroying them, actual anti-tank will just tear right through them. A trukk penned by something with AP1 is all but dead. For that reason target saturation doesn't really work, too many guns which are commonly used across all armies do a good job at killing them.

Therefore, you aren't going to fix the issue of your mini-death-stars losing their flimsy transport by simply throwing more flimsy transports to shoot in the mix. If your opponent's S6-7 weapons are busy shooting the warbikers racing at them, high strength AP3 weaponry is shooting the mek gunz that are destroying his vehicles or infantry and crashing his planes and his lascannons/meltas are trying to stop a battlewagon which is delivering a MA Stikk Warboss into his ranks, then your trukks have a good chance of survival. When he just has to pick trukks from most important to least important, no unit of "two wound terminators with chainfists, fearless and WS5!" is going to be riding a trukk for long.

While i agree with most points, i'm providing suggestions to some actual tactics with trucks. I see them having advantage over wagonz in some cases.

For example, if the opponent is loaded with meltadrop, grav guns, haywire - not uncommon now - truck's durability is on par with a wagon. And if you have 2 trucks, it's even better cause you're not gona be stuck in place and could use an empty one for your advantage. Not once have i won games thanks to a couple of grots or an empty truck blocking the way.

On the other hand, if the opponent is not short on s5-8 dakka, it's quite the opposite.

Currently, it all depends on your meta. And that's why it's not correct to say that wagonz are clearly better than trucks.That's exactrly the reason to have them both.

tag8833 wrote:
I see where you guys are coming from dismissing trukks as a viable transport for bully boyz. I haven't run them in Trukks, or Battlewagons or seen them played. But I have played against Trukks many, many times, and I think you are underestimating their durability. With 'Da Finkin Kap you are probably going to get either night fighting, stealth in ruins or infiltrate. So you are looking at a 4+ cover for your Trukks on turn 1, and a reasonable chance that you can hide 2-3 out of LOS.

In those situations, you are losing 2 trukks at most, so you Bully Boyz are getting moved 24" Your Warbikers are moving, and you've got a turn 2 charge.

Since you brought up tournaments, do yours really have that much LoS blocking terrain? When you go to a store here (tournament or not) you get one big piece in the middle an a bunch of GW ruins and forest for the rest of the board. Since you can't start directly behind the LoS blocker, I find it hard to hide more than one trukk unless my battlewagons are doing the hiding.

Otherwise agree, the thinking cap is probably a good thing to bring to protect the trukks. Putting a KFF with the bikers might also be a possibility, considering that bully boyz are threatening enough to use cover-ignoring buffs against them. Again, I can see bully boyz in trukks working, but trukk boyz won't have anything to do with that.

I am not a fan of Bully Boyz in a Blitz Brigade, because
1) Most tournaments don't let you run 2 formations.
2) That is a ton of points. At 1850 you don't have room for basically anything else.

Taking a dedicated BW for each Bully Boy group is a tad more attractive, but still seems excessive.

The bully boy formation is 775, assuming boss pole and two killsaws on every unit, the blitz brigade is 575 with just rams (which is how I usually run my wagons). Add a MA Stikk Warboss (125) and a unit of boyz with nob, pk and bp for him to lead (148) and another one for the last BW (160). Leaves you with 67 points to spend on a pain boyz, a mek, a shoota boy upgrade, some kannons or lobbas or a pair of traktor kannons. You could also drop the PK of the nob accompanying the warboss for more points.
Keep in mind that you are slinging three (four if you count the MA Stikk Warboss) vehicle-crushing death-stars with scout across the board, the actual need for support is limited.

Can't do a thing about stubborn TOs though.

Interesting points Glad this thread is able to remain an actual debate without someone getting their panties twisted; but saying that, jidmah always appears to remain cool, unless ofc under that calm and pleasant poster is a nerd raging, taking a baseball bat to his keyboard everytime we reply

I think your right, with only trukk boys as support your probably not threatening enough with all your main killy units being the bully boys. And i will admit, the advantage of the blitz brigade in combo with bullyboys is simply that they are scouting and rather close for comfort.
hadn't looked at the points, but thats pretty cheap, didn't think you'd get the bullyboys, the blitz, a warboss and 2 units into 1500, that would be a very scary list no need for redundancy trukks in there!

Jidmah and everyone else, what are your thoughts on mini-stars with orks? Ive just been constantly allured by the idea of warbosses run almost bare, maybe with the relic BC's in boys units in wagons, acting more like; every ork unit has some kind of small power house, with a nice pool of wounds. But I always seem to think that for the points cost of each I may as well just have more units of boys/put more eggs into one basket and go for the full MA, DLS loadout; who will destroy most things.

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:
I see where you guys are coming from dismissing trukks as a viable transport for bully boyz. I haven't run them in Trukks, or Battlewagons or seen them played. But I have played against Trukks many, many times, and I think you are underestimating their durability. With 'Da Finkin Kap you are probably going to get either night fighting, stealth in ruins or infiltrate. So you are looking at a 4+ cover for your Trukks on turn 1, and a reasonable chance that you can hide 2-3 out of LOS.

In those situations, you are losing 2 trukks at most, so you Bully Boyz are getting moved 24" Your Warbikers are moving, and you've got a turn 2 charge.

Since you brought up tournaments, do yours really have that much LoS blocking terrain? When you go to a store here (tournament or not) you get one big piece in the middle an a bunch of GW ruins and forest for the rest of the board. Since you can't start directly behind the LoS blocker, I find it hard to hide more than one trukk unless my battlewagons are doing the hiding.

Well, I'm doing my best to mirror BAO terrain at my Tourney next week. Generally, yes, you've got 2 ruins big enough to provide 4+ or maybe even 3+ cover to a Trukk in your deployment, and then a big LOS blocker in the middle. If you roll master of Ambush: 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/5 + 1/5 = 73% of the time then you can infiltrate behind the big LOS blocker.

Going beyond that, my meta is increasingly adopting Tourney FAQ's since GW has been so incompetant when it comes to releasing FAQ's. Along with that comes a bit of a social contract that you run 2 detachments unless you pre-negotiate something else.

 Jidmah wrote:
Otherwise agree, the thinking cap is probably a good thing to bring to protect the trukks. Putting a KFF with the bikers might also be a possibility, considering that bully boyz are threatening enough to use cover-ignoring buffs against them. Again, I can see bully boyz in trukks working, but trukk boyz won't have anything to do with that.

Most armies have a limit to their ignore cover options, and the Warbikers are a better target for that stuff usually.

 Jidmah wrote:
The bully boy formation is 775, assuming boss pole and two killsaws on every unit, the blitz brigade is 575 with just rams (which is how I usually run my wagons). Add a MA Stikk Warboss (125) and a unit of boyz with nob, pk and bp for him to lead (148) and another one for the last BW (160). Leaves you with 67 points to spend on a pain boyz, a mek, a shoota boy upgrade, some kannons or lobbas or a pair of traktor kannons. You could also drop the PK of the nob accompanying the warboss for more points.
Keep in mind that you are slinging three (four if you count the MA Stikk Warboss) vehicle-crushing death-stars with scout across the board, the actual need for support is limited.

Interesting that you put Killsaws and BP on your Bully Boyz. I feel like they are good enough base. They are fearless, so no need for BP, and with 5 PKs per unit, armor bane isn't as critical.

Right, you don't need the boss pole at all. Since I don't own that many MANz, I field 2x 5 at max, and when I do they get them this loadout.

The killsaws are for taking down things like knights or soulgrinders, since you won't have that many PKs left after they struck first and you don't really have the points to bring anything else to handle them.

anyone see any possible way of getting a dreadmob and the stampede rule in the same just?

only formations i see with it is the greentide, and the ork horde formation

One thing is for certain. Inside the vacuum there is no single indestructible ork unit. Everything we do has a better chance of success with each extra identical unit on the field.

For every two battlewagonz with five bully boyz you can have five trukkz with boyz and a PK nob in each. At 650 to 700 points nobody should be turn one destroying all those vehicles. At 1800+ if your list just wants to get stuck in then ideally you need 4/5/6 wagonz or 14-16 trukkz. Not just two wagonz or four trukkz.

If you want to use trukkz that is how you do it. Take two CADs, fourteen trukkz and fill them with units that are all similar in points and purpose. They can't shoot all of it.

They can shoot half of it, and you just paid points to split your army into a slow and a fast portion, one of the biggest mistakes you can do as an ork when building lists.

No matter how many trukks you bring, your list will still be bad. Keep trukk boyz at a minimum and bring actually dangerous fast units like warbikers and you'll be good.

Besides that, four battlewagons are plenty at 2000, the only reason to bring a fifth one is the blitz brigade, I can see no reason for bringing a sixth. You're just wasting points and slots that could have been used on support choices at that point.

There are reasons not to spam explictly trucks or explictly battlewagons. Hardcounters. You're usually better off with partly trucks, partly wagonz. Besides, you can easilly hide trucks behind wagonz if/when needed. There are some situations where the benefits usually outweigh the dangers, though - blitz brigade for higher pt games. Or more trucks when playing at lower pt games cause usually 1 wagon won't fit well in a game below 750 pts.

I say there's alwayz place for a truck in the list even if you're footslogging. There's no bad in a single truck with 'ard boyz or manz. And here's why:
- A single truck is easy to hide at start.
- You can freely place it in reserves if you feel it's gona be more benefical and plenty of other stuff will still be on board. And this way you're following one of the most important concepts of our army - timing. Also, with vanguard deployment, reserves are just like outflanks from a pre-determined table edge.
- Spacing is a huge problem for footsloggas. Usually, you can effectively put only a limited ammount of spread-out footslogging orks at the front. Usually that's around 3 squads. Or a greentide in the middle and probably 1-2 lesser squads on the flanks. Thus, a truck might prove useful for that extra push where needed. I think it's more or less obvious for every horde player and doesn't need further clarification.

Personally, i use a single truck with my footsloggas. And am gona try out a 10-strong squad of stormboyz. I love how they can pull a 24-28' more or less reliable charge on the WAAAGH!

Fully agree, I usually try to fit a trukk in my battlewagon lists as well, at 2000 even a second one. Having the option to flank the unit or putting an additional PK into combat against a tough opponent is invaluable.

I tell you what though. You could almost save the statistical one pen on a trukk by the time you talk about destroying 6+ trukkz in a turn :p .

Devils advocate here really. But I would like to think that scenario isn't soo grim. A gun line designed to shoot half my trukkz turn one should likely be overwhelmed by half my boyz in melee turn two? A mobile shooty army capable of destroying 7 trukkz can't escape to the center of the board because they stranded my now slow portion there on turn one.

But yes I don't plan to buy that many trukkz and will run a mix. I do think with two CADs new spam armies should be looked at.

 Rismonite wrote:
I tell you what though. You could almost save the statistical one pen on a trukk by the time you talk about destroying 6+ trukkz in a turn :p .

In my experience, most trukks die to being glanced to death by weapons similar to autocannons. Every other true anti-tank weapon will also take one down, and gauss or haywire will also take a toll on them. Also keep in mind that immobilized is pretty much the same as destroyed for a trukk.

Devils advocate here really. But I would like to think that scenario isn't soo grim. A gun line designed to shoot half my trukkz turn one should likely be overwhelmed by half my boyz in melee turn two?

Why should it? We're talking about a fully intact gunline here, including counter-charge units like wraith knights, riptides or GKT, fighting six to eight units that can barely handle a unit of troops on their own. In worst case, you're facing one or more imperial knights, with no real way to handle them but piling on multiple units.

A mobile shooty army capable of destroying 7 trukkz can't escape to the center of the board because they stranded my now slow portion there on turn one.

The can escape to the side though, and they get two turns of shooting before you arrive.

But yes I don't plan to buy that many trukkz and will run a mix. I do think with two CADs new spam armies should be looked at.

See, the thing is that there are basically two reasons to spam any given unit.
The first reason is that the unit is exceptionally low costed for its power and spamming it would make your army a lot better than spending those points on other things. Annihilation Barges and Wave Serpents would be a prime example of this. This is not true for trukk boyz. The codex is full of units that can do their job better.
The second reason is that your opponent only has limited capabilities to handle a given unit and thus is not able to use a good chunk of his army when you spam that unit. This isn't true for trukks either. Outside of some S3 guns and some poison weapons everyone can hurt them. They don't die to bolters anymore, but bolters (shurikens, shootas...) will definitely help in their demise and are far from being wasted. This also true for footsloggers, but footsloggers don't have the down-side of getting split up in two handleable bits.

Trukkboyz are not an overly efficient unit, they don't archive target saturation, and they are not an all-upsides choice. For those two reasons, spamming trukks will not improve your army.

Um, can MANz missles move 24” in a turn?

"Slow and Purposeful
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-boost, move Flat Out…"

Kinda sounds like the rules are written to stop such a thing.

Also what do you guy’s think of spamming Stormboys?
For example
Two squads of 30?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The mega armor problem occurred to me when I was trying to figure out why someone would field Nobs.

Google:Terrorstorm wrote:
Um, can MANz missles move 24” in a turn?

"Slow and Purposeful
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-boost, move Flat Out…"

Kinda sounds like the rules are written to stop such a thing.

Also what do you guy’s think of spamming Stormboys?
For example
Two squads of 30?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The mega armor problem occurred to me when I was trying to figure out why someone would field Nobs.

The rule only applies to the actual unit and not anything that happens to transport them. Besides trukks can't actually join the unit nor the other way around, the unit is simply embarking on the vehicle, it's not fusing the two units together. Furthermore, the main rulebook also specifies which USR applies to both the unit's transport and the unit itself, like Infiltrate and Scout, of which SnP is not part of.

Also, in the case of stormboyz, taking 30 is a bit overkill, particularly two of them because it makes them both unwieldy and too big a points sink for such a fragile but speedy unit. It's better to go for smaller units and spread the rest of the points you have onto other fast/deadly units to maximize threat saturation. That way it forces your opponent to split up his fire and make it more likely for either your stormboyz or other units to make it. So 2 medium sized stormboy squads alongside trukk boyz would arguably be more effective.

Every time i've tried large blobs of stormboyz, they weren't worth it. Even a Zaggy unit with 3 nobz. They're just too fragile for the points and you can't effectively hide large blobs. They're also harder to maneuvre.
But ~10 strong unit with a pk/bp nob is great. Especially for footsloggas. Can be hidden away, can easier move over others due to smaller footprint. Still pose a 22-27" threat on WAAAGH!

Re: bully boyz:

As cool as it sounds to take that many ws5 fearless meganobz - especially in conjunction with the blitz brigade - I would have thought it was overkill that left you vulnerable to hard counters.

In games I have played, units of just three regular meganobz are plenty to demolish the things that meganobz are actually designed to kill. For everything else, I.e. hordes and terminators, boyz are much more points efficient.

If I were to take the bully boyz, then I would probably give them a kombi-skorcha per squad to add a bit of versatility. I would also add grotsnik in the CAD (he can still join a unit from another detachment, right?).