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John Kovalic rules

there's some funny stuff there - about other gamers, that is, coz I'm a normal and well-balanced person

Funny.
It's a wonder there isn't blood in that cartoon.

That panel was deleted but is included in the unrated extended length special edition version.

What the kid in the blue did was just wrong. The guy was being a prick but he should have been the better and just moved on.

I like the way the blue guy thinks.

Posted By stonefox on 07/18/2006 10:03 AM
I like the way the blue guy thinks.

of course you do. hey wait a minute he looks like you too.. doh!!

Eheheh. What's sad is I had that very thing happen with someon who was actually admiring one of my minis! (In all fairness, it was an accident when part of the mini caught on his clothing and he was very apologetic.)

I think the other guy should have bitten the plastic mini to show that the metal is superior! That would be the smartz.

Do you realy want to put someone's clix mini in your mouth?

This reminds me of the time I met one of the Wizkids founders at Gamesday. My friends and I were begging him to buy GW and put out a click game that worked on a Warhammer scale.

the "zeroclix" strip was great... but group of strips about "gamers for personal hygene" was the best... I personally think it was thought up at one of the local game shops in my area.

What are you guys talking about and where can i find it?

Link in original post?

How much sense does it make to pick a hobby for resilient models? The point of the comic is heroclix is better because one can bounce the models off the floor?  So a good game is one with cheap, resilient poorly painted bendy plastic models.

Watching collectible anything players continue to buy things surely to be invalidated in 3 months or so is just sad.  What's the point of a collectible set the company will invalidate from play?  Is there really any value there then?  Ultimately, all the collectible game pieces are just junk, even the rares will eventually be outdated hence illegal...  What a sad Pavlov's dog group of players.

Playing table top miniatures wargames requires discipline and effort, because of army production, admirable qualities.  CCGs and CCMs don't, they remove all the work necesary, there is no virtue in "rip open" and sort, or I bought 3 cases discounted online and I have all the killer rares so I win.  There isn't much game when the current sets killer combos are figured out, red Firelord anyone?

Zeroclix is the right name for it, it's junk for people with no discipline to pretend they are playing a table top miniature wargame. Or perhaps it is an endless carrot and a stick to ensure people have to keep buying random junk in a never ending circle of invalidation...

For the record, a clix player who wrecked a model someone painted to make a point would get carried out of my store.

Aug - I like the comic because it showcases the typical snobbish elitism from anti-clix wargamers. What's the point? Well, I don't know about clix nowadays but if it's anything like magic you get the packs and trade/buy/sell them. I made a nice bit from yu-gi-oh that way. That's why you do it quickly and efficiently. I could also say, "Why would people play 40k when their junk will get invalidated in 2 years (when another codex or ruleset is sure to have the advantage) anyway?" So you go to bartertown and get rid of the models before they get invalidated.

As for "discipline and effort," I don't see how CCM rulesets require less of the qualities to win. Heck, even Chess has a simpler ruleset and it takes quite a bit of effort to win. Anyway, in 40k I'm pretty sure there's no work involved either - just play one type of Marines and you win. Blood Angels or Iron Warriors - variety! So a guy buys 3 boxes and gets the rare or you buy blood angels and win. What's the difference? Or are you talking about the hobby aspect, which has nothing to do with the actual game itself?

Invalidation.... Heh, I recall a lot of people were annoyed in the shift to 4th edition since the new rules invalidated old models. Even the BA players had to get rid of their rhinos somehow. Of course, if we're talking about wargames in general here, I'd guess you're right. Warmachine hasn't created a new ruleset yet and I don't know enough about FOW to know if old units were affected by the updated rules. Funny how you say CCMs use a carrot-on-a-stick when GW does the exact same thing to entice people to buy. They have their gimmicks and one-assault-cannon-per-box "deals". PP and other companies do the same thing - how else will they get money?

I just thought it was funny. However, like most things, I don't think
anyone should actually DO the things that I think are funny.

Good retorts stonefox, noted, however a few comments:

stonefox> As for "discipline and effort," I don't see how CCM rulesets require less of the qualities to win. ... So a guy buys 3 boxes and gets the rare or you buy blood angels and win.... talking about the hobby aspect,...

Hobby aspect is what Im talking about, inevitably any miniatures player who plays with painted armies will spend more time preparing then playing.  This situation creates an atmosphere of mutual respect between players with finished armies.  Essentialy CMGs are all playing with "bought" painted armies, eliminating this aspect. 

stonefox> Invalidation.... Heh, I recall a lot of people were annoyed in the shift to 4th edition since the new rules invalidated old models.

Fair to say, in a certain context, but recognize there is a big difference between invalidating a few models, or more likely configurations and or effective combos, as in V4 40k and eliminating an entire figure line, as in Mageknight V1 or old heroclix sets, or in type 2 magic tourneys.  I should hope one could easily recognize the difference in scale and scheduled planned obscolesence. A melta gun, has been a melta gun, since 1980 or so, all the collectable stuff has been through about 10 iterations in half the time and the old stuff is all illegal and or incompatable/uncompetative...

Food for thought...

You know... something that people were doing at my old FLGS in Hawaii, Other Realms (shameless free plug), is taking those "Zeroclix" and repainting them to a nice gaming standard. Then they were selling them through the store... for a nice profit.

So there IS a middle ground. Nothing is stopping you from repainting those pre-painted models. Heck, that's what I always do with my Dark Angels. Buy crappy paint jobs off eBay, real cheap too (shipping is usually more than the winning bid) and then repaint them up to a very nice standard.

Augustus - thanks for the replies. I'm enjoying it - really.

-Hobby aspect, gotcha. However, my point still stands in that the game has no bearing on effort and discipline aside from the 3-color rule, and even that is waived if one is not playing in a tournament. People can also prime and paint their CCMs if they want - it's just not required in a tourney. But I think I know what you mean and that's the fact that the hobby is a big part of the money and time invested in this IP. Again it's not part of the game, unless you're at a tourney and it has painting scores that state you must be the one who painted your models.

-Again, the invalidation of models only matters if you're playing at a tourney. If you're playing with friends you can play with whatever ruleset you want, with whichever FAQs you choose to use. One can also argue that even though the shift from v3 40k to v4 40k wasn't that drastic, the truth is that only a few armies are actually tournament eligible - you can use whatever other armies you want but you better be prepared to lose. v3 -> v4 also gimped the rhino rush lists, which is comparable to non-competitive decklists. I would argue that collectable games require faster time due to the ease of collecting/assembling an army (i.e. people would be bored if the same rules or card/mini sets are around too long and brings the game to stagnation), or the opposite where wargames require a slower iteration of models/rulesets because of the longer time required to collect and assemble an army.

In any case, I've been both a collectible (cards, clix, and the fun Pirates game) and miniatures player. I dislike the sorts of arguments that certain people on either side (heh, every now and then you get a similar thread in a clix forum) make. Ultimately, the hobby aspect is only comparative and if you really want to include that...I'm sure things will get more messy when you include those Russian artists who make a living painting miniatures and can put to shame most of the Italian/French Golden Demon winners. Thus, that's why I think the game and the hobby should be kept out of the same argument. Both are only required to be together when you're at a tourney and someone can always just pay someone to paint their minis - it's never forced on you and you don't have to win best painted.

Blah, too long. Cheers, haha.

Edit: Arrggggg, KIM!!!  Beaten like the demon prince by the blue guy!

I used to play mechwarrior for these reasons:

The models werent horribly painted, thus making an instant game out of the box, ready to play.

The rules were fast and simple (the key word here is "Were". They have since convoluted the game with a faq as thick as the 40k rulebook)

There were tactical challenges in game play.

The game is crap now. They invalidated the older models (like MTG type 1 and type 2 play) and then reinstated them for approved play. Too late for most people, as they had already sold their armies.

I still enjoy some of the games that Wizkids puts out. Pirates of the spanish maiin has incredible tactical flexibilty, if played to annihilate the enemy, not treasure running. It is also rather fun to assemble the ships, as you get a small sense of satisfaction from them.

Horror clix is clix based, but has a charm and a good mechanic.

Patrick, do you get paid per post, or are you salaried?

Per post.

I earn extra for kicking GW's ass!

DOWN WITH GW!

Money in the bank my friend. Money in the bank.

Up with pirates!

I like Dork Tower but as a gaming strip I find Larry Leadhead, Order of the Stick and good ol' Turn Signals funnier.