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i was wondering what are the best daemons to use against necrons and Space Marines. My thoughts straight away turn to bloodletters with the amount of attacks and power weapons means that necrons don't get WWB and space marines will drive. also the points are justified because the space marine guy is using grey knights so they get sustained assult.

Hey Joe,

The most effective Daemons against the listed armies are the same as the most effective Daemons in an allround list. Bloodletters and Daemonettes as troops (always in fluffy numbers and the Daemonettes never in squads of 12, always more squads of 6).

Fast attack Daemons Furies (8-10 per squad) and Mounted Daemonettes (6 per squad).

If you want to rely on Daemons, get 5 squads in 1500 points at least, or you won't be guaranteed a few when you most need them.

Use Bikes and Infiltrators as delivery squads. A Lieut on a Bike does me wonders because of his IC status. Fill your fast attack Choices, both with Daemons and with Bikes.

Especially Mobile Necrons are a pain though (as are Skimmer heavy lists). With Veil and Monolith a lot of Necron squads can be teleported out of combat, which is often bad news for the Daemons. Vs. such an army Bloodletters are indeed good, but also you need speedy Daemons to entangle flanking squads.

Good luck with the wonders of Chaos, let us know how you're doing.

Cilithan out... 

 

 

 

i dont want to rely on them, i just want to see the looks on my regular opponents faces when i summon some daemons and i figure why not get the best one. the necron army doesn't have veil of darkness or a monolith yet but the guy is just starting out. I have never really thought about using slaanesh daemons as i dont want to paint that many breasts in one sitting. i draw the line at 2 pairs per model. I do like like their rending and initiative modifiers which would be useful against necrons.
I think i shall take 6 daemonnettes and 8 bloodletters, i am definetly taking furies already i just have to buy them.

Bloodletters

They count as having powerweapons, so no WWB, and they have a great save.

The big downside to the demonettes is their weakness against shooting. With monoliths and the Viel they can teleport out of combat and rapid-fire your demonettes to death.

Yeah I too for bloodletters. Necrons are like slow but highly mobile Marines with Gauss weapons. Initiative isnt even a factor when fighting those init 2 necrons. The trick about the veil and monolith is to daemon bomb so effectively you wipe them out in a turn. Its very possible since the bloodletters get 2 power weapon attacks, 3 on the charge. Thats 24 power weapon attacks plus what ever you used to deploy them.

If the Necrons get away the Marine like armor of the bloodletters will shrug off most all of the Necron weapons. Just don't foot slog with them if you can help it.

8 bloodletters on the charge only kill 8 necrons, and doesn't knock 'em down forever if a res orb is there. If it is a 20 man Warrior mob the Bloodletters will take a casualty back perhaps 2, the Necrons will make a ld 10 check, get sucked through the monolith, average 6 will get up, 36 rapid fire shots latter you have a half bloodletter squad that is rendered ineffective next round of combat, still has to charge back in, and you killed a total of 36 points of necrons. You cannot simply break a large warrrior squad with a single bloodletter group. Of course, this is just a mathematical exersize in the ridiculous toughness of Necron Warriors and not a condemnation of Bloodletters.

However, I have found that bloodletters generally do not perform as well as either the similar pointed Daemonette Calvary, or the much cheaper daemonette. While the bloodletter is about equal in CC performance against MEq as Daemonettes per point, the lower I (strike simultaneously with marines, strike after eldar, space marine characters etc) is a major point against them, as is the fact that ST5 power weapons are effective against MEq but far less so than the Deamonettes superior number of rending attacks per point against GEq and large than MEq models. On the charge 8 Bloodletters do 2 wounds to a Wraithlord, whereas the points equivilent Daemonettes (12) do 6 before the wraithlord gets a strike. Also, they generally do not perform worth their points in the general metagame of anti-MEq weapons (starcannon, plasma guns, lascannon, etc are all still effective) that they added 3+ save isn't worth the points assigned to it. Add a lack of frag weaponry with the prevelence of cover and the high initial points cost of a unit (at least 130 points, and most like 208) and the Bloodletter, while a great unit is almost always outperformed by other choices in the CSM arsenal.

What about Screamers? Don't hit me! I have never used them but I am a Necron player and I know all about Teleporting out of combat. Screamers can leave combat (assuming they don't have to fallback already) and then hide. This would piss off a Cron player for sure. The secret to taking out squads of Necrons is "sweeping advance." With Initiative 2 they will lose almost all the time if they have to fall back. A large squad of raptors with a powerfist. Say 8 Undivided Raptors, Powerfist, 2 Plasma Pistols costs 290. I find 16 is the best number when it comes to squads of Necron Warriors and they cost 288 nearly the same as the Raptors. There is no way the crons can win the assault. They 16 attacks vs 4 Powerfist and 21 regular attacks. With Daemonic Visage the leadership of the Warriors is 8, if they fail the moral check chances are you will sweep them, if they pass you hit and run and hide, and keep doing this. Besides I hate veiling, always a chance I could scatter off into a unit or off the table, sometimes I stick it out in the combat to avoid veiling.

Screamers blow. They HAVE to leave combat. It's not an option for them. They never tie up a unit in HTH combat.

Screamers do not blow.

Any unit with Hit and Run should not be locking units in combat. Try summoning a unit of 9 screamers between 2 existing combats. They pinball back and forth, can't be shot at, and always get the furious assault bonus.

They also get smacked by a single unit that can get LOS on them with decent guns once.

They also don't do well dealing with units in cover.

8 letters vs 20 warriors is over a 100 pt difference in units.

The great thing about demons is that you can summon them, move, either the summoner shoots the squad you are charging or supports you in the charge, either way you can prety easily overkill the squad, get it below half, outnumber it, and hope you break it (it happens often enough if you get the letters + another squad in there)
When they flee they all die.

Considering Necrons are not generally an assault army I would not recommend using Screamers.
Stick with Bloodletters and their Hellblades.

They also get smacked by a single unit that can get LOS on them with decent guns once.

They also don't do well dealing with units in cover.

Any unit of 1 wound 5+ save models will suffer under those conditions.
Your Screamers shouldn't be in LOS of enemy models. In the early turns there are higher priority targets. In later turns they should be able to hide behind terrain and existing combats.

If you are asaulting into cover with Screamers; you are using them wrong.

Ideally they should be used in Thousand Sons armies.

Rubrics are hard as nails but they don't give it as well as they take it.
Marching straight up the field they should be assaulted by Turn 1 or 2. Next turn the newly summoned Screamers charge the combat. The extra high-initiative attacks will reduce losses, improve combat resolution and probably break the enemy unit, as each Rubric counts as 2 models for out-numbering.

A unit in cover loses its intiative bonus if it is already engaged in combat. Charge it with Marines first or burn it out with a full unit of Flamers.

Screamers do not blow.
They are specialized.

Rarely see them used though, as Furies already best most things initiative I see most people going for the furies.

After all a fury stays in combat and thus gets 5 attacks with the charge over 2 assualt phases while screamers, granted they recieve less return attacks due to higher init enemies (though only from init 5 opponents and those are?????)

Anyway, screamers over 2 assualt phases get what? a whopping 2 attacks.

I like the whole hit and run thing but I need a reason to choose them over furies, are there any good such reasons?
Or atleast great tactics that compensate for lack of power, leaving combat does not always ensure a higher survivability.

You are definitely right.

Screamers are a niche unit. I was pointing out how they weren't a good niche unit to use against marines and necrons. As you pointed out, deamonettes and bloodletters are best there.

I was pointing out how that idea of bouncing would not work against those armies. Marines and Necrons have the options available to move fast if they need to. Those same units tend to be able to lay down enough fire that screamers will not survive. I would not say they blow, but bloodletters assaulting units in cover tend to still kill a lot of them and aren't upset at being left out in the open if need be.

Yea, I have always been a fan of both demonettes and furies, bloodletters seemed less interesting though, granted the demonettes don't like assualting into cover.

I've seen two units of furies hit stealth suits and both stealth suit units got to roll massacre rolls...

Deamonettes probably would have done better in one case, but when they get attacked first, they are so fragile that it isn't really a good chance against MeQ. Their rending doesn't make up for them losing 3-5 members of their pack before they ever get to roll an attack.

Bloodletters are my pick for that reason alone. I rarely get to dictate where my opponent will place their models, so expecting to never charge into cover is unreasonable.

"I've seen two units of furies hit stealth suits and both stealth suit units got to roll massacre rolls..."

Sorry, but when baddly played no unit in 40k survives long. I've been playing a Daemonbomb style army for at least a year now and my Furies not amounting tot anything hasn't happened. Even against Marines they always win their points back (or many times over).

Sure, Bloodletters are bad-boys, but costly. In a 1500 points all-commers Daemonbomb there will often be points for one 8 man squad Bloodletters. Personally in 1500 I use 8 Bloodletters, 2x 6 Daemonettes, 8 Furies and 6 Mounted Daemonettes. I find this is a very nice and diverse mix.

I cannot state this enough: you need the fast attack Daemons! They Guarantee the blocked LOS through combat, so the other packs can walk to the enemy after a bad scatter.

Cilithan out...

 

I agree 100% about using fast demons, especially in demonbombs. The downfall for most demons is not getting in assault immediately. Demonettes die in droves if they spend a single turn being shot at (as well as most other demons).

Furies fit this role very well. I'm painting Demonettes on Steeds now so I can get another fast unit on the table to tie things up quickly.