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That was my point we've been duped into beleaving that these countries can be demcorcies. let me break it down to you barney style with the whole Iran thing. If Israel attacks Iran dont think for one moment that other nations in the region would hold back and restrain themselves from attacking Israel hell Hezbola fought em to a stand still a year ago and they're labeled as a terrosit group by our goverment so dont feed me crape that a nation just because it is advanced military as Israel cant logisticaly fight against them due to technology and borders. Hell we're haveing problems dealing with insurgents and we bare far none have one of the most powerful militaries in the world. anyways we've kinda got off topic.

Why would the other nations in the region attack Israel? The only states which might hold a serious interest in attempting to wipe Israel off the map are Syria and Jordan. Neither of these states has a serious military, and Jordan has been largely silent in recent years regarding its neighbors to the west. And its not like the Arab nations (which Iran is not counted among) have a long history of succesful incursions into Israel. They've tried to beat them, and failed every time. Now Israel is, militarily, stronger than ever and nations like Syria have made little in the way of similar progress.

As for the ability of insurgents to engage modern militaries. You're right, non-state actors can effectively oppose states when fighting DEFENSIVE actions. Israel was pushed back by Hezbollah because the fight was on their ground. The US is struggling in Iraq for the same reason. It takes a massive effort of men and materiel to project force even between Israel and Lebannon; two states which border one another. Imagine what it would take for Iran to do the same when forced to go all the way through Syria. Simply put, the Iranians do not have the money or technology to fight a war that far removed from their own soil.

But they could increase their support to the war by proxie they are rutinely accused of. The US needs to engage Iran in talks, state the minimun and maximun degree of concessions that both parties will accept and demand from each other and then make very sure to the more hardcore Iranian mulahs that the US is not interested in a regime change in Iran. Nobody will negotiate in good faith with any kind of US goverment if every weekend a statement comes from the White House saying that a legitimate goverment (and quite a few of them are tyranical ones but that´s geopolitics to us plebeians) is going to be toppled because is in the best insterests (usually NOT) of the US to ensure global (meaning the latest power block in the goverment) peace of mind.

M.

dogma wrote:
In any case, if Israel attacked Iran there would be no war. The Iranians simply do not have the capacity to project force that far from their own borders. Especially not against a more experienced, and far more advanced, Israeli military.

Unless they have a nuke, of course.

Majority of the people liveing in the middle east have no love for Israel. Most Muslims would have the nation of Isreal put to runis so they can have their holy city of Jeuraslim back. Remember that the capital of Isreal has probaly seen more blood shed throughout history more so then any other city in the world. So even if their goverment doesnt take a violent pose dont think the people over there who call JIhad wont show their support to the nations, if it ever comes to be, involved. Anyways steps must be taken to unsure that this never happens. Know damn well if Isreal attacks it'll just give our goverment the excuse its been waiting for to invade.

jfrazell wrote:

dogma wrote:
In any case, if Israel attacked Iran there would be no war. The Iranians simply do not have the capacity to project force that far from their own borders. Especially not against a more experienced, and far more advanced, Israeli military.

Unless they have a nuke, of course.

Its fairly well accepted "quiet" fact of IR that Israel is a nuclear state with somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-40 warheads. If Iran was also nuclear I would expect that this "quiet" fact would be made a great deal louder in an attempt to reach a kind of detente. Moreover, if Iran had nuclear technology I cannot see Israel being open to attacking. The risks are too high for a state which is that geographically small.

nieto666 wrote:Majority of the people liveing in the middle east have no love for Israel. Most Muslims would have the nation of Isreal put to runis so they can have their holy city of Jeuraslim back. Remember that the capital of Isreal has probaly seen more blood shed throughout history more so then any other city in the world. So even if their goverment doesnt take a violent pose dont think the people over there who call JIhad wont show their support to the nations, if it ever comes to be, involved. Anyways steps must be taken to unsure that this never happens. Know damn well if Isreal attacks it'll just give our goverment the excuse its been waiting for to invade.

How do you know this? Do you know people in the ME? Do you know most Muslims? Do not mistake the rabid proclamations of fundamentalists for the majority simply because their voice is the loudest. The idea of Israel in peril is one of those great myths leftover from the rhetoric of the '67 war carried though to the modern day by those politicians who lived to see that time. Either way, its hard to imagine a set of circumstances under which the US would choose to invade Iran; even harder to imagine a series of events which would make Iran decide to enter a conflict with the US.

[u]

dogma wrote:

How do you know this? Do you know people in the ME? Do you know most Muslims? Do not mistake the rabid proclamations of fundamentalists for the majority simply because their voice is the loudest. The idea of Israel in peril is one of those great myths leftover from the rhetoric of the '67 war carried though to the modern day by those politicians who lived to see that time. Either way, its hard to imagine a set of circumstances under which the US would choose to invade Iran; even harder to imagine a series of events which would make Iran decide to enter a conflict with the US.

Don't be blind. Israel is being rocketed daily by Iran's client powers-Hamas and Hezbullah. They are developing missiles that will be in range of Israel's capital city. We would never tolerate this, but Israel is expected to. Nuts.

Israel is afraid as one nuke irradiates their country. Iran would lose a lot sure, if directly counterattacked. But if the country's leadership really doesn't have a problem dying for the cause whats to stop them?Of course they could avoid that but just smuggling a nuke into Israel/Gaza and setting it off.

And thats the US fear. They will strike not directly but by giving this to a terrorist gorup that will smuggle over the border or into NY/LA harbor and set it off. Thats what scares me about our border security-we have none.

How do you know this? Do you know people in the ME? Do you know most Muslims? Do not mistake the rabid proclamations of fundamentalists for the majority simply because their voice is the loudest. The idea of Israel in peril is one of those great myths leftover from the rhetoric of the '67 war carried though to the modern day by those politicians who lived to see that time. Either way, its hard to imagine a set of circumstances under which the US would choose to invade Iran; even harder to imagine a series of events which would make Iran decide to enter a conflict with the US.

If it makes you feel any better I know people who have been to the region and would disagree greatly with your assessment. Meeting a few folks here and there isn't exactly the same as a large strategic overview of the region and it's geopolitics. I'm not sure why we are are now on US Muslims, but like any other group, they vary individual to individual; some are good, some are bad.

There is some truth to what you are both saying, as not everyone is rabid to destroy Israel, but at the same time it is not a popular country and many wouldn't care if it was. Their seems to be many making the same mistake a lot of people do, in thinking that people in other parts of the world all think the same and have the same basis of reasoning, which they don't. It's not better, it's not worse, it is just different. Their goals are different, their histories are different, and their perspectives are different. You think it is reasonable to not attack Israel, they think it is the only reasonable thing to do. People within the same country often have varied ways of thinking.

It doesn't even take that many to want to do harm, as you can see in Iran. I would bet most of the population wants to let it go, but the ruling powers are dead set on it and have no problem dragging their people into war.

It's religion, it's a blood sacrifice, the Enlightenment and Western Reasoning have very little to do with how they make their choices. You have to remember there are people in the US that want Iran to attack because they think it will bring about the end of the world. I'm not talking about Muslims either, I am talking about Christians. This isn't all Christians of course, but it is also not 12 guys either, it's in the hundreds of thousands if not a few million. Do you think they will stop believing if someone just tells them it isn't reasonable?

Also the appeal to authority doesn't work well on the internet for several reasons 1) I don't have any reason to believe you have ever left your basement, let alone been outside the country 2) typing things like "why????????????????????? IVE BEEN TO THE REGION!!!!!" doesn't seem like the writing of an adult, let alone a well traveled one.

And as far as this appeal goes we also know that books are useful and that you don't always need to do something to have any insight or thought about it. If knowledge were useless we wouldn't have books or the internet and a thinking person can have an opinion.We aren't talking about rewiring a house with no knowledge in under 30 seconds. You can rewire a house by learning how to read a schematic, and you can learn about many other wonderful things by reading as well. The military must agree, what with all their training manuals. You don't actually have to have been a capitalized letter to know they go at the beginning of sentences.

There is some truth to what you are both saying, as not everyone is rabid to destroy Israel, but at the same time it is not a popular country and many wouldn't care if it was. Their seems to be many making the same mistake a lot of people do, in thinking that people in other parts of the world all think the same and have the same basis of reasoning, which they don't. It's not better, it's not worse, it is just different. Their goals are different, their histories are different, and their perspectives are different. You think it is reasonable to not attack Israel, they think it is the only reasonable thing to do. People within the same country often have varied ways of thinking.

Very true. Its the people building the weapons, transporting the weapons, and firing the weapons are the only ones that matter.

It doesn't even take that many to want to do harm, as you can see in Iran. I would bet most of the population wants to let it go, but the ruling powers are dead set on it and have no problem dragging their people into war.

Very true

You have to remember there are people in the US that want Iran to attack because they think it will bring about the end of the world. I'm not talking about Muslims either, I am talking about Christians. This isn't all Christians of course, but it is also not 12 guys either, it's in the hundreds of thousands if not a few million.

That’s hogwash and antichristian bigotry. You better have some facts to back that up buddy.

[Also the appeal to authority doesn't work well on the internet for several reasons 1) I don't have any reason to believe you have ever left your basement, let alone been outside the country 2) typing things like "why????????????????????? IVE BEEN TO THE REGION!!!!!" doesn't seem like the writing of an adult, let alone a well traveled one.

I let my emotions get the better of me on that one. i apolgise for that. these issues just get me heated thats all. i also guess what region of the US ur from will also give you a strong opinion. Alright now calling me a liar is going a little overboard i know where ive been and what ive done. how dare you have the nerve to call me out in such a manner. I served in the united states army as a military police officer for four years. I dont need to explain my opinion or my actions on these forums to you but sayins that you dont have any reason to beleave that ive never left my basement please. For all i know you may not know any who has served of even been over there so im going to leave it at that.

That’s hogwash and antichristian bigotry. You better have some facts to back that up buddy

I don't think that is bigoted or hogwash, we see-- over here as well-- no end of fanatical Xtian "preachers" who say that sort of thing. Some even say ludicrous things like claiming that " Hitler was enforcing God's plan" etc. People like John ( or is it Jon, I've seen it spelt both ways) Hagee and Pat Robertson frequently come out with this hate filed diatribes. I'm sure a few minutes spent googling such will turn up no end of relevant links.

but to save you some time

From my experience in the region it's pretty much like most of the world. Sure given the chance for Israel to magically disappear most people in the ME would jump at the chance, but most know that won't happen, accept Israel is a reality and wish they could just move on. They tend to worry about other things like mortgage payments, how the kids are doing in school, not got a bird wnat to get one, got a bird getting too much aggro. You know, people stuff.

Sure there are fanatics over thee who 24/7 preach hate and destruction of " The Great Satan", unbelievers, "The West", coca cola, apple pie etc and they get a lot of airtime, but they're a minority, most people over there don't wakr up and think of ways to hurt America, they wake up and wonder what to have for breakfast.

Thats garbage. You're convicting by anecdote. Show me something from a respectable 3rd party source that XXX,000 Christians in the US want to attack Iran because it will bring the end fo the world.

Because Hitler was an atheist I can then make the claim that atheists want to kill all Jews, gypsies and slavs in general. Its a brilliantly stupid argument.

jfrazell wrote:
That’s hogwash and antichristian bigotry. You better have some facts to back that up buddy.

Seriously? You have never heard of any of this stuff? I mean, the numbers sound a bit high, but think of the percentage. You honestly don't think that 1% or less of any given group is going to be flying rodent gak insane? 800,000 Christians in America that feel that way would still be less then 1% of the total number that claim Christianity in the US.

I also love how 80%+ of the population with their culture everywhere can act like they are the victims of discrimination and bigotry. Oh those poor law making, majority holding victims. Who will care for them?

Watch Christian broadcasting sometime, they get around to it eventually. Or go rent Jesus Camp. You may have missed it apparently, but there are a lot of different Christians out there, and they don't all believe the same thing. If they did, we wouldn't call the Lutherans, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Episcipalean, Mormon (for you non-orthodox lovers), Baptist, Methodist, ect ect.

Also, I didn't say they want war in Iran specifically, it's more general then that. They want to get all the Jews back to Israel and want the conflict to start because they think that it is part of the pathway to the second coming and Armageddon. Whether it is Iran now or someone else later, they want to hasten this process.

So in other words, you're just blowing smoke out your

jfrazell wrote:Thats garbage. You're convicting by anecdote. Show me something from a respectable 3rd party source that XXX,000 Christians in the US want to attack Iran because it will bring the end fo the world.

Because Hitler was an atheist I can then make the claim that atheists want to kill all Jews, gypsies and slavs in general. Its a brilliantly stupid argument.

I'm sure you'll find a percentage that is willing to do so.

However, if you want to know how many people really want the end of the world now... look into the works of LaHaye and look at the numbers that Pat Robertson pulls in.

The Christian Zionist movement (despite anti-semitic beliefs among it leadership) is firmly behind Isreal for the following reason: the state of Ireal is required to ensure that the end of the world does occur in the near future. These people have no use for peace making in the iddle East because if there is peace there is no short term rapture. Effectively you need wars in the Middle East to ensure that the end is near.

Many of the people on the Christian right in both the US and Canada want the world to come to an end soon, so it can be reborn in a perfect manner. And before you you give me the "anti-Christian" label , I'll tell right right now that I have always been and remain to this day a practicing Christian. So don't try the "antichristian" label on me. It doesn't and has never fit.

You'll easily believe that many muslims are fanatics but not that ~1% of Christians are?

On The Road To Armageddon

The Rapture Factor

jfrazell wrote:

dogma wrote:

How do you know this? Do you know people in the ME? Do you know most Muslims? Do not mistake the rabid proclamations of fundamentalists for the majority simply because their voice is the loudest. The idea of Israel in peril is one of those great myths leftover from the rhetoric of the '67 war carried though to the modern day by those politicians who lived to see that time. Either way, its hard to imagine a set of circumstances under which the US would choose to invade Iran; even harder to imagine a series of events which would make Iran decide to enter a conflict with the US.

Don't be blind. Israel is being rocketed daily by Iran's client powers-Hamas and Hezbullah. They are developing missiles that will be in range of Israel's capital city. We would never tolerate this, but Israel is expected to. Nuts.

Israel is afraid as one nuke irradiates their country. Iran would lose a lot sure, if directly counterattacked. But if the country's leadership really doesn't have a problem dying for the cause whats to stop them?Of course they could avoid that but just smuggling a nuke into Israel/Gaza and setting it off.

And thats the US fear. They will strike not directly but by giving this to a terrorist gorup that will smuggle over the border or into NY/LA harbor and set it off. Thats what scares me about our border security-we have none.

It doesn't appear to me that Israel is tolerating any of the attacks being made against it, quite the opposite in fact. Nor should they be expected to. However, one cannot equate the development of long range missiles with, unproven, proxy support of military NGOs. You cannot presume that the development of any weapon system by a country which you are not actively at war with is a threat to your existence. Especially in this instance as Israel is not a reasonable target for any kind of Iranian WMD. The casualties on both sides, Muslim and Jewish, would be so horrendous as to seriously damage the already tenuous relationship that Iran has with the rest of the ME. Especially considering that even Syria, long the greatest Israeli opponent, is beginning to work with the Jewish state.

As for smuggled nuclear warheads. Not likely. I've already made my argument earlier in the thread, but in a nutshell it is simply not advantageous for any state to hand nuclear weapons over to a proxy actor. No matter what you think of Iran, it is still a state, and thus will act as one.

jfrazell wrote:Thats garbage. You're convicting by anecdote. Show me something from a respectable 3rd party source that XXX,000 Christians in the US want to attack Iran because it will bring the end fo the world.

Because Hitler was an atheist I can then make the claim that atheists want to kill all Jews, gypsies and slavs in general. Its a brilliantly stupid argument.

Convicting who? There was no accusation made here. The statement was simply that irrationality can arise anywhere. If anything the presence of insane Christians supports your argument that one cannot expect Iran to act rationally simply because we believe they should.

That said, Iran is not some great alien with incomprehensible morals and ideology. Much of the rhetoric used by the Guardian Council is lifted directly from the Western facist tradition. There is no reason to presume that they would sell their state, and power base, down the drain in order to become a martyr-nation. Especially considering the incredible depth of history they would be giving up; something which is often cited as being more dear to the Iranian people than the whole of Islam.

As an aside, I realize that my introduction of the Iranian facist tradition opens up my argument to Hitler comparisons. However, there is significant evidence to support the idea that Hitler suffered from the later stages of syphilis. A condition which severely distorted his perception of reality as it gradually ate away at his brain.

I see. Let me get this right.

Because, the argument goes, 1% of everyone is nuts (without proof to the statement),
therefore Christians are nuts and therefore want to nuke Iran to bring on Armaggedon?

Ok...
One Flew Over the Coockoo"s nest was an awesome movie wasn't it?

jfrazell wrote:I see. Let me get this right.

Because, the argument goes, 1% of everyone is nuts (without proof to the statement),
therefore Christians are nuts and therefore want to nuke Iran to bring on Armaggedon?

Ok...
One Flew Over the Coockoo"s nest was an awesome movie wasn't it?

+

No the stated comment which you attacked was that perhaps as many as a couple of million Christians wanted to bring about the end of the world. This number is probably not incorrect. The follow ups indicated that there were movements which desired the end of the world, and they are centred in right wing Christian theology. Among the more influental members of this pattern of thought are Pat "Let's assasinate Chavez" Robertson, Jerry Falwell and the relatively influential writer Tim LaHaye. Many believe the European Union to be the new Rome. These people influence a large swath of the American (and Canadian) population. The end of the earthly world is thier goal, and people dying to get them there doesn't bother them.

efarrer wrote:

jfrazell wrote:I see. Let me get this right.

No the stated comment which you attacked was that perhaps as many as a couple of million Christians wanted to bring about the end of the world. This number is probably not incorrect. The follow ups indicated that there were movements which desired the end of the world, and they are centred in right wing Christian theology. Among the more influental members of this pattern of thought are Pat "Let's assasinate Chavez" Robertson, Jerry Falwell and the relatively influential writer Tim LaHaye. Many believe the European Union to be the new Rome. These people influence a large swath of the American (and Canadian) population. The end of the earthly world is thier goal, and people dying to get them there doesn't bother them.

I'm not much of a believer but I wouldn't shed any tears if someone bagged Chavez.

He has turned into Castro "Half the Rants but Twice the Gas" Lite hasn't he?

jfrazell wrote:He has turned into Castro "Half the Rants but Twice the Gas" Lite hasn't he?

On the other hand, who really cares about him. Blowing a lot of hot air is all I've seen.

Has been supporting rebels in Columbia though, and sending troops into one of its other border countries over that there evil imperialist oil. Otherwise, yea he's Venezuela's problem.

jfrazell wrote:I see. Let me get this right.

Because, the argument goes, 1% of everyone is nuts (without proof to the statement),
therefore Christians are nuts and therefore want to nuke Iran to bring on Armaggedon?

Ok...
One Flew Over the Coockoo"s nest was an awesome movie wasn't it?

No, the argument is that SOME Christians are nuts. Just as the argument is that SOME Muslims are nuts. There is no extrapolation from a specific minority to the larger majority. Essenitally the point is that Christians can appear quite off their rocker because of a small segment of the entire Christian population. To judge the entire population by such an example is patently absurd. To judge all Muslims by the example set through the actions of extremists is equally absurd. If you fail to see that then it is nothing but an expression of some personal, preferential ignorance.

Who's judging by example again? I'm saying the government of Iran is potentially off its rocker, not Muslims in general.

But it does appear as though others are painting that brush, that conservative Christians are wishing the destruction of Iran for religious reasons.

No one has come close to painting all Christians with any size brush. From the beginning it has pointed out that it is an extreme minority of Christians. No one certainly called them Conservative Christians either, you did that.

Hundreds of thousands of Christians was the term. Thats not an extreme minority. The statement was proffered without support. Funny you would think massed marches of thousands of people shouting "Nuke Iran so we can go to heaven" would have been televised. Oh wait, it never happened.

Quit painting the majority of the US population with the same brush. Such bigotry has no place on this forum.

There are 330 million people in the US. Almost 90% of these people are Christian. A couple 100,000 is hardly a significant minority, even if it is a large number.

Maybe math has been hard for him, I don't know. I thought it was fairly obvious from the numbers that were given showing what you just said that it was a small group. There are different numbers out there so I'll try to take the median ones.

310,000,000 Americans, 85% are Christian in some form meaning that 263,500,000 are Christian. If we talk about 300,000~2,000,000 of them how are we coming close to painting the other 261,500,000 Christians as the same even after stating we are not?