Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"Guess the range as accurately as possible"

Range has many meanings, but the ONLY pertinent one is "distance to the target" - so you sub in the definition and get:

"Guess the [distance to the target] as accurately as possible"

You have a single target - the unit you declared on.

Only by ignoring the *dictionary definition of the words used* can you possibly state you can overguess legally.

Deminyn wrote:...
ANY GUESS is legal, no matter how bad it is.
***If you can find a rule that shows when a guess is not a legal guess, post it.***

You seem to have missed the point in there...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Guess the range as accurately as possible"

Only tells you HOW to guess, not when a guess is illegal. So if I guess 16" too far (whether there is something behind the unit or not) it is still a legal guess. Was still guessing as accurately as possible, I just suck at guessing.

I'll try a different way.
Step 1: name target
Step 2: guess range
Step 3: Measure range, find where point of impact is.
Step 4: Apply warmachine rules (scatter/bounce).

It doesn't matter what you guessed in Step 2, Step 3 ALWAYS happens. Therefore there is never an (RAW) Illegal guess. (Except if you try to guess outside the range of the weapon. (Hey look, range here doesn't mean the distance to target, it means something else, weird how English works like that)

If you want to convice me that overguessing is cheating/illegal, give me a solid example of a rule that says something like "If the guess lands more than 6" from the target, it has no effect" or something like that.

Please, for the sake of intelligent debate for intellectual exercise, keep it legal-like. Think like a lawyer and don't use common sense. If something is not defined, it is open for ALL interpretations. If something is not written, it doesn't exist no matter how obvious it is.

(in all honesty, overguessing is bs and one should never do it as it is horrible sportsmanship and the kind of behaviour that will ruin the fun in the game. But, arguing RAW is kinda fun, if everyone is willing to keep it light and intelligent)

Which is why I said that, out of its many meanings, the ONE THAT MAKES SENSE HERE is "distance to target" - so attempting condescension is...unwise.

You don't need a solid rule like that - because an accurate guess for a cannon is different to the acfurate guess for a stonethrower.

This means that, much like judges do (hey, you brought legalistic ideas into this) you have to interpret what "as accurately as possible" means in each situation.

Anything aggregious, call a TO over or sort it out between you. However you can prove your guess was not as accurate as possible when it is a 40" guess agaisnt a target 12" away....

We are arguing rules which are suppossed to provide a ruling of what is and isn't alright in every circumstance. Otherwise it is required for a case by case rulings. The only thing is you are using hyperbole to show that guessing 40" for a 12" target.

What about the dire wolf screen that is only 1" infront of graveguard and overguessing 2". So is 2" overguessing. What if one guy meant to do it and can do it with pinpoint guesses, and the other guy did it by accident? Is one illegal, is the other legal. What about 4", 6" 8"? When is it over guessing and when is it just bad guessing?

And judges get to make those interpretations and rulings. In this scenarios, TOs and GW are judges, not us. We are just lawyers, making arguements, try to reach a collective understanding with out a judge (since GW doesn't make rulings and TOs only have jurisdiction over their event)

I'm already in the camp of if your opponent looks at you funny when you guess, you better start explaining your intent and if he calls you on it, you reach an agreement. This is necessary 'cause the rules aren't clear. What I'm hope-ing (never know how to spell that) for from this debate is an enlightening statement that makes me go "AH, perfect, that is such a neat way of thinking about it that clears up the confusion." I'm afraid the "as accurate as possible arguement" is too wishy washy for me (that's just me I guess) Is there anything else you have that can make me have a warm fuzzy about this rule?

No, because the rules expicitly dont cater for every circumstance - TMIR is there for a reason, read some of the fluff behind the rule for why.

"guessing" a range is such an individual thing that it cannot be water tight - 1" out is unacceptable for a 10year vet playing Empire (at distances up to 60" i would say) however isn't for someone on their 3rd game with a couple of cannons.

That is why it is "as accurately as possible" - it HAS to be part of the social contract between gamers that exists *over and above the rules* of the game so they make it clear that certain guesses, such as charging when you know you cannot reach, IS cheating but other guesses would not be.

Like most things - context of the guess is king.

so would I be wrong in saying RaI and good sportsmanship govern over guessing?

As the op I must admit if I had deliberatly overguessed to hit another unit way behind the unit I could see I wouldn't blame my opponent packing his army up.
It may not be against the raw but its its certainly not good sportsmanship...
Mick

Deminyn wrote:so would I be wrong in saying RaI and good sportsmanship govern over guessing?

In a similar vein to declaring impsosible charges - sometimes "impossible" is very close to call, and you have to determine if they are doing it in good faith or it is an attempt to exploit the situation.

skyth wrote:It's not changing the rule. The quoted rule that you keep on taking out of context only is re-interating that you can't pre-measure the shot before the guess.

Okay. I give up. I point out that the phase tells you to guess the range to the target unit as accurately as possible, but because that isn't explicitly spelled out, you keep repeating... what you keep repeating.

That doesn't make you right, that makes you irritating.

Play that way if you want. I won't, nor will I play with someone who does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

strange_eric wrote:Verisimilitude is all in the eye of the beholder. The situation I laid out was extremely plausible. And there are many reasons to fire beyond at a unit they cant see. "THEYRE HUGE DRAGON OGRES IGNORE THE TINY GOBLINS"

As I recall, Dragon Ogres are large targets, and therefore in sight of the cannon. And therefore a viable target. Sorta like other large monsters.

I'm talking about, say, overshooting your cannon over my (for example's sake) DE spearmen to nail the Black Guard behind them. The Black Guard are not in line-of-sight, and therefore not a valid target for the cannon. Just because you, the player, can see over the spearmen does not mean your cannon crew can, nor does it mean you should be allowed to shoot over said spearmen because you consider the Black Guard a bigger threat. The cannon crew sees the spearmen, they are a threat, and if they can see anything of the Black Guard, it is the points of their halberds.... that look a lot like spearheads at long range. Assuming perspective doesn't have them completely concealed by the (apparently taller) spearmen?

Ditto giving up. I'm not convinced that over guessing is breaking any rule in the BRB and haven't heard a good argument in 4 pages.

As I recall, Dragon Ogres are large targets, and therefore in sight of the cannon. And therefore a viable target. Sorta like other large monsters.

Pretty sure they aren't But since we're nit picking right now. How about this example.

Carnosaur.

Not a large target. Group of skinks in front of it blocking LOS.

Yeah, that makes sense. My game suspension of disbelief is totally there.

Meanwhile: I can handwave/story/fluff argue out anything. This is why that is a terrible idea to base "rules decisions" around.

So? As far as the rules are concerned they are both the same height.

Its called an abstraction.

This same abstraction is used to say you cannot "see" that unit of BG over the spears - you may just about work out there is another unit, but as far as the game is concerned you cannot discern enough of the target to try to shoot at them.

*YOU* , the god like figure looking down ont he table can see them - however the unit in question cannot, and therefore have no reason to try to shoot over the immediate threat.

Let me throw a different hook at people because I play Empire. I find it out that, if a Giant parks in front of my tank by one inch, that the "large" target blocks line of sight but that there is no way for me to hit it because if I guess I must guess at least 1 and roll the die and get a 2, I miss the giant even though the damn thing is right in front of me.

How would one play this scenario since many say over guessing is wrong? I personally think if a giant's fat butt is sitting right in front of my tank I should be able to auto hit as long as I don't fire a dud.


Also, regarding "over guessing" I see both sides but the rule book does not say its wrong, no does it say its right. Now in other war games, there are spotters for the cannon crew and line of sight is accomplished in this fashion. I think one of the problems with not being allowed to over guess is number one: Am I good at guessing (I am not). Do I want to gamble that there is no bounce? If I roll two dice and get 20 on top of my guess (lets say 10) that is 30 which covers a long distance on a 4 foot table. So is my bad dice rolling (in this case) mean I cheated? (I am expected most people to say no because of the dice rolls making up the distance).

All in all I find the Cannons a bit over rated against many armies as with the look out rule, ward saves, and not guessing correctly, not to mentioning misfiring, means most of the time cannons are more point takers. I take them simply to take on the tough guys on people's list, but once everyone is engaged in combat they just sit there waiting doing 200 or 300 points of nothing. Also, if people have flying units goodbye to my cannons; wood elves take out canons by turn three unless I keep my army tight and back in front of the cannons.

By the way, I always elevate my canons on hills so I don't run into line of site issues.

johnnyspys wrote:Let me throw a different hook at people because I play Empire. I find it out that, if a Giant parks in front of my tank by one inch, that the "large" target blocks line of sight but that there is no way for me to hit it because if I guess I must guess at least 1 and roll the die and get a 2, I miss the giant even though the damn thing is right in front of me.

How would one play this scenario since many say over guessing is wrong? I personally think if a giant's fat butt is sitting right in front of my tank I should be able to auto hit as long as I don't fire a dud.

I would find that perfectly reasonable. After all, I was dumb enough to park the giant there...

By the way, I always elevate my canons on hills so I don't run into line of site issues.

Fair enough.

This is why I favor doing away with guess ranges entirely and just nominating a target point for "guess" weapons. As long as that point is within max range and LOS, then mark it and roll artillery and/or scatter dice from there. The ability of a seasoned crew operating a warmachine to do their jobs should not be disrupted because their "general" has poor depth perception.

Besides, this method also speeds up the game by eliminating the guessing portion of firing stone throwers, cannons, and the like.

I think the problem with eliminating guesses is that it will make artillery TOO accurate. This is fine in a gun-heavy game like 40k, but in WHFB it could unbalance some things.

How many Empire players field mortars? How many will field 4 if they didn't have to bother guessing range?

Manfred von Drakken wrote:I think the problem with eliminating guesses is that it will make artillery TOO accurate. This is fine in a gun-heavy game like 40k, but in WHFB it could unbalance some things.

How many Empire players field mortars? How many will field 4 if they didn't have to bother guessing range?

QFT

Manfred von Drakken wrote:I think the problem with eliminating guesses is that it will make artillery TOO accurate. This is fine in a gun-heavy game like 40k, but in WHFB it could unbalance some things.

How many Empire players field mortars? How many will field 4 if they didn't have to bother guessing range?

My friend can guess within 1/2" at ranges over 180"*, it isnt the guessing part that makes mortars inaccurate

*we made him guess when, during a series of linked megagames, he wanted to fire his basilisks at another table. It wasnt a hindrance....

Yeah i played against a few guys at my club, and they can usually not only hit the unit, but usually are able to place the darn template right on the guy they are "aiming" at. Thank god for scatters

Pretty laughable argument really.

There is a point where common sense and sportsmanship overrides, or should override, arguments that are the 'RaW' arguments that are really 'I'm going to interpret this word in a fashion that is most beneficial to me'.

If you're guessing is more than +/- 6" and it's not your first couple games, you're a douchebag, plain and simple, and you will be asked to pack your gak and hit the road.