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dogma wrote:

Ahtman wrote:
Oh it is.

Honestly, that's a sufficient endorsement for purchase.

Truth in advertising is job #1!

The major trouble with 4E has nothing to do with its rules, which are very good. Unfortunately, they're not doing enough to flesh out the setting. This isn't so much a criticism of the core books--3/3.5 never bothered to tell us much about Greyhawk--as it is of the Campaign Settings/Players Guides. These books offer very little about the Realms or Eberron and rely to heavily on prior knowledge. I came to this conclusion after reading all four of the 4E FR and Eberron. I had spent a lot of time in the Realms but never played Eberron. After reading, I knew almost nothing more about the Realms despite the massive changes and still very little about Eberron. This doesn't bode well for the impending re-release of Dark Sun, a setting which hasn't been out since AD&D. TBH, if Dragon and Dungeon were still printed rather than cosigned to digital obscurity, this problem might not be so acute. Anyway, the rules themselves are superior to 3.5--as long as you're at the recommended party size--but 3/3.5 definitely had a much more worthwhile set of books in terms of both content and style.

By the way, Ahtman, I wonder if Oriental Adventures will be the next setting. I doubt it. After Dark Sun, I'd like to see the return of Spelljammer.

Right, D&D40k. That setting always looked sort of half-formed, but with a lot of potential.

Giant Space Hamsters!

Is there any chance of a 4e DragonLance?

@my fellow Richmonder: I doubt it since the 3/3.5 setting books were published by Sovereign, which was owned by Margaret Weis. Her other company, Margaret Weis Productions, seems to be focused on the Cortex System with games like Serenity and Battlestar Galactica.

@Orkeo: Spelljammer in AD&D2nd was more of a "how to get between campaign settings" campaign setting. And then Planescape superseded it, I guess. Giant manta ray flying through space with a city built across its back? Yes please!

Talked to some people that got to read/demo/go to seminars about Dark Sun at the D&D XP convention this last weekend. Only one of them had much experience, or even heard of it and they all thought it sounded pretty cool, if not a bit cut-throat (well duh). I agree they need to do more for people who have no idea what some of the campaign settings are.

It seems kind of lame to go fight in some dungeon, then FLY THROUGH SPACE IN A MAGIC SHIP, and then go fight in another dungeon, though.

I think there needs to be some more SPESS LAZERS!

I think Spell Jammer would work especially well in 4E because of the cosmology re-work. No more planes as such or crystal spheres or phlogiston or even planets. Just one great sheet of material world with the astral sea above and the elemental chaos below, as I understand it. Also, I think spelljamming helms have already been mentioned in the 4E Planes book.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:Is there any chance of a 4e DragonLance?

*jaw drops showing an inter jaw*
DragonLance has a game?

lord of the ghosts wrote:

chaplaingrabthar wrote:Is there any chance of a 4e DragonLance?

*jaw drops showing an inter jaw*
DragonLance has a game?

*shakes head*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dragonlance_modules_and_sourcebooks

Martial Power 2 is giving melee characters something akin to arcane/divine rituals. Basically things like meditation before the battle and other things that can give various effects. Which really isn['t the point of the post. The point is another thing about 4th that it flawed: rituals. Some of them are fine and work well integrated into the storytelling, but some just make no sense or head-scratching. For example "Knock" is a ritual now. It takes 10 minutes to perform the ritual. This just seems odd. Knock should be a Utility spell. There are a few others like that.

4E really gave casting a total revamp. Once complaint is that Rituals are the only real magic anymore period.

Holy crap!! 101 posts!! thank you people I'll make a tally of player who have posted!!

Manchu wrote:4E really gave casting a total revamp. Once complaint is that Rituals are the only real magic anymore period.

I haven't heard that one. Fireball, Magic Missile, Mass Fly, Shield, Feather Fall, Ice Storm, True Seeing, ect... all still seem pretty magical to me and aren't rituals.

I agree that they are magical. The complaint from my old group, who sadly refused to keep playing 4E, was that other classes' powers felt like magic as well.

I fail to see what is sad about that...

I fail to see what's so bad about 4E that wasn't already a problem in 3.5 . . .

4TH Ed DM over here!

I feel That d20 modern is slightly better than 4th Ed Though.

Yeah, as I've said I would have preferred a Saga Ed. D&D over 4E but I know they wanted a bigger change. I've got Blue Rose coming in the mail, so we'll see how that is.

I own the 4e core books, although I haven't had a chance to play it yet (my group refuses to switch, for mostly monetary reasons, which I'm perfectly alright with). I have to say that my major objection is in character creation - they all seem very similar. It does seem like it might allow for more cinematic combat, something that will seem more familiar to people just getting into the hobby, than previous editions.

Like I said though, I don't know for sure. I haven't got to try it yet.

I think character differentiation should primarily be a function of personality rather than mechanical capability. That's what works for me at least. I know some people get more enjoyment out of the mechanics.

Ahtman wrote:For example "Knock" is a ritual now. It takes 10 minutes to perform the ritual.

They probably should have changed its name.

It sort of seems like one of those ironic nicknames now.

Manchu wrote:I think character differentiation should primarily be a function of personality rather than mechanical capability. That's what works for me at least. I know some people get more enjoyment out of the mechanics.

I'm one hundred percent with you, but with an emphasis on "primarily." I couldn't count the number of times I've seen some aspect of a personality take hold due to a little mechanical quirk, or seen it work in reverse - a mechanical trick that perfectly complements an established part of a character's personality. Not to mention mechanics as a source of inspiration from the very beginning, when designing a character.

I suppose that, at the end of the day, I want to be able to make my character unique in as many ways as possible.

That's a very good point, Shane. More often than a major part of my character concept has been creating a twist on a mechanic. I want to play a character in 4E that is a drow rogue/druid who can shape shift into a shadowy spider thing, for example. Finding a voice for this devotee of the Underdark ecosystem would be very interesting to me. I just know too many people who don't look beyond the mechanical aspect. All they seem to see are ways to increase the numerical bottom line.

It's LOCATE CITY BOMB TIME!

I have played through 2nd, 3rd and now 4th Ed and I think some things have improved greatly while others are badly designed as is.

The good, more balance among classes. It appears that Wizards might cave with the coming books to power gamer pressure but right now my lvl 9 human fighter is on par with the other classes of my group and my hated half drow/bugbear/ant rogue/wizard/fighter/prestige chef prevalent in 3 and 3.5 are not allowed (but already the hybrids classes are lurking their way back in)
Less rules that hamper role playing with stupid rolls (nice Gettysburg Address to the council but what a pity you rolled a 1) but this is by itself a problem because the absence of rules makes most GM turn to skill challenges or more combat intensive campaigns where they don´t have to go into small detail designing NPCs and situations.

The bad Magic items and rituals, some balance was required to avoid the acumulation of tons of magic items but the daily limit to uses is annoying specially when some items designed for flavor eat the uses of the useful ones, requiring lots of house ruling to rebalance that using my Hunter´s Flint to set up a camp eats the use of my Cloak of the Cautious for no real gain as the random encounter will still happen if the GM wants it. With rituals the same thing happens, the requirement to sing for 10 minutes in front of the guards before making them fall sleep of use knock on the door kind of defeats the purpose of the stealthy approach unless the GM rules otherwise, rituals need to be rethought (actually other than rise dead I think we haven´t used a ritual yet)
Less options for the magic classes, face it at lvl 30 you have around 20 various level severely limited powers, that´s nothing to a kitted 3.5 ed wizard/something with unlimited wishes/miracles... plus magic items I think most critics come from this type of player that sincerely thinks that the flexibility he had in prior editions now is limited.

Anything else I forgot?

M.

I just found out last week that if you spend a Healing Surge during a brief rest you can recharge a daily power in an item.

I always felt that item dependency for mechanical character development was a cop-out. I've known people to design character builds around a specific item or list of items (reducing arcane spell failure, anyone?). It's more of a problem in 3rd, as far as I can tell, than 4th. Generally, I get the impression that 4th is meant for throw away fun fests rather than introspective story lines that last for a year or more, which might be too much to ask out of any RPG. I find myself really frustrated with RPGs at this point, however, so maybe that's why I like 4E: the goal is realistic--have fun for a while; forget about producing "literature".

I feel like a MOD is going to pop out and lock this thread.