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All I'd have to do to get my BTs ready in the next 3 days is....paint 16 terminators, 2 predators, finish a Typhoon and dig up another cyclone missile launcher.

Not impossible, but not easy, either.

Reecius wrote:All I'd have to do to get my BTs ready in the next 3 days is....paint 16 terminators, 2 predators, finish a Typhoon and dig up another cyclone missile launcher.

Not impossible, but not easy, either.

If you'd stop playing playing games and writing batreps, you might get done faster....

If you guys are concerned about Space Wolves "Rock" I suggest bringing "Paper"

I'm excited to see the results of this ... and the next West Coast Invitational recipient. Will you be live blogging it again, KN?

MVBrandt wrote:I'm excited to see the results of this ... and the next West Coast Invitational recipient. Will you be live blogging it again, KN?

If I can find an internet connection in the store. I am not even sure if they have wireless. But yeah if they do then I will try to upload results when I'm not judging.

At worst I hope to have the results up after each day's totals. I'll post the army lists the following week.

Janthkin wrote:

Reecius wrote:All I'd have to do to get my BTs ready in the next 3 days is....paint 16 terminators, 2 predators, finish a Typhoon and dig up another cyclone missile launcher.

Not impossible, but not easy, either.

If you'd stop playing playing games and writing batreps, you might get done faster....

Haha, yeah, you got me there! But playing is so much more fun than painting

Kevin Nash wrote:If you guys are concerned about Space Wolves "Rock" I suggest bringing "Paper"

Even before I had this data, I already keyed my list hard against space wolves.

I've just started my own space wolves list, and was agonizing over which units would synergize and mutually support which other units, and then finally got a chance to play a series of three test games....

Thats when I realized that space wolves have virtually no synergy, its just a collection of threats all screaming and running at you, or all shooting tons of missiles/TL assault cannons/TL lascannons at you. the tolerances for misplay and sub-standard generalship are quite loose, and I think thats what makes them very successful and very popular. I thought IG was auto-pilot, but I think I found an even less challenging army to play.

I do admit that what they lose in stimulating in-game challenge, they more than make up for in raw coolness. Giant wolf-riding space vikings are just totally cool. Which exacerbates their over-popularity issue.

But back on topic. Space wolf players... if you want to fire a long fang missile in your game against me... Pray for first turn

I'm assuming your running IG Shep? Could be fun depending on how you tweaked it

yakface wrote:

Reecius wrote:
I hate to say this, hahaha, but of my 6 buddies coming, 4 are SW!

Man, that's just pathetic. I try to stay as un-jaded as possible when it comes to the negative effects a really powerful codex has on the hobby, but seriously? WTF?

Out of 24 spots we're nearly guaranteed to have 1/4 of the armies be space wolves and the likelihood is that the percentage will actually be higher.

It just makes me sad that the desire to win sometimes completely overrides the desire for uniqueness because one of the main reasons I always liked playing in tournaments was the ability to play against a bunch of different army types in a short amount of time and in the last few tournaments I've played in Space Wolves have made up 25% or more of the field. Its practically an epidemic.

Space Wolves is in abundance because it's a new codex and MEQ not just because it is powerful. Just because everyone brings a popular army doesn't necessarily mean it will win. Even then, if you know the field is bringing it, then I suggest keying you lists to punish them. Please see Shep's comment just above.

If your list is good it's going to table necrons anyway. In a Swiss tournament you can count on playing weaker players in the early rounds and more powerful lists in the later rounds assuming you are winning. You certainly don't have to bring space wolves, but I strongly recommend preparing for them.

If you can't beat Space Wolves, join them!

Blackmoor wrote:If you can't beat Space Wolves, join them!

There is a reason I don't require painting in these tournaments, nor do I require you to send me army lists ahead of the day of the tournament. Go take a gander at the DE codex. Figure out which unit crushes space wolves. Purchase and Build. Add them to your army list. Win. Profit!!!

OK it's not that simple. But you get the gist.

Blackmoor wrote:If you can't beat Space Wolves, join them!

The truth comes out

Nah, I can beat 'em

But I've also got a DIY that's SW's when I feel like it so I don't know where I stand!!!!!! Oh noes!

Hulksmash wrote:I'm assuming your running IG Shep? Could be fun depending on how you tweaked it

My ego never recovered from that seize the initiative you pulled on me!

In truth the way my list was configured before, even with second turn your long fangs were likely to weather the manticore fire and then win the game anyway.

I couldn't bear the audacity that you space wolf players have in just lining up across from IG and happily winning a shootout!

While I have weakened my game measurably against armies that vertically envelop, nobody is going to be outshooting me this time around.

That ability of Space Wolves is why I run a guard army that doesn't really care much about shooting :p

Funny to watch the routine opponents banter here.

I agree Shep. It was more your list that let you down in our game than your tactics. Seizing just made it a bloody turkey shoot.

I can't wait to see the results of this.

It should be interesting, I will definitely be bringing a camera and I suggest others do as well to get some good coverage. Now lets hope the parking situation doesn't kill us all.

We might need to find a good lot a ways away and get a shuttle service via someone who has easy access to good parking at the event =).

Shep wrote:While I have weakened my game measurably against armies that vertically envelop, nobody is going to be outshooting me this time around.

I've yet to meet the IG army my Wolves couldn't outshoot! Now that I said that of course, I am sure I will see yours and me utterly blown away! Hahaha.

For anyone looking for a place to stay:

Hotel


Sunset Inn & Suites

Address


7370 W. Sunset Blvd.
Los Angeles (California), CA 90046
United States of America

Phone


+13238760330

Fax


+13239690620

is where Dave_Fay and I are. Only $76 bucks a night ($38 per person) and walking distance to the event. Parking is no issue!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to clarify, you do need to have a fully painted army to win best overall, right?

That hotel might actually be a good idea.... temping...

Kevin Nash wrote:If you guys are concerned about Space Wolves "Rock" I suggest bringing "Paper"

I don't know that there is some all encompassing 'paper' to counter Space Wolves because they have several different builds that do different things...and if there is, I'm pretty sure I don't have access to it with my collection of painted models (I don't enjoy playing with unpainted models). My Kan wall is definitely a counter to the Thunderwolf heavy Space Wolves, but not so much the super-shooty bulid.

But more importantly, you seem to have misunderstood my point. I could care less if Space Wolves win or not. I just think diversity in armies is more fun to play against. I would rather lose all 5 of my games to army types I rarely get to play against then to go 5-0 against five Space Wolf armies. Which is also why the 'if you can't beat them, join them!' mentality is flawed as well. I don't care if Wolves win every tournament from here on out...I'm just sad when there's a lack of variety in army types because I enjoy seeing and playing against different types of armies.

yakface wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:If you guys are concerned about Space Wolves "Rock" I suggest bringing "Paper"

I don't know that there is some all encompassing 'paper' to counter Space Wolves because they have several different builds that do different things...and if there is, I'm pretty sure I don't have access to it with my collection of painted models (I don't enjoy playing with unpainted models). My Kan wall is definitely a counter to the Thunderwolf heavy Space Wolves, but not so much the super-shooty bulid.

But more importantly, you seem to have misunderstood my point. I could care less if Space Wolves win or not. I just think diversity in armies is more fun to play against. I would rather lose all 5 of my games to army types I rarely get to play against then to go 5-0 against five Space Wolf armies. Which is also why the 'if you can't beat them, join them!' mentality is flawed as well. I don't care if Wolves win every tournament from here on out...I'm just sad when there's a lack of variety in army types because I enjoy seeing and playing against different types of armies.

Too bad you missed Ironman then there were all armies represented.

Blackmoor wrote:If you can't beat Space Wolves, join them!

Not that it means much because of such a tiny sample size, but Space Wolves is rocking around a .423 winning percentage in our circuit last season (points/games). That's a total of 26 games played. If you throw out the top and bottom performances (Hulksmash's tourney victory and a guy who got a donut) it drops down to .394.

By Contrast an army like Tau has done very well around here, with a winning pct of over .700.

Does that mean Space Wolves suck? No, but it does appear to be the army of choice for players who don't perform very well in our tournaments. And as evidenced by the results, the army clearly doesn't pilot itself.

vhwolf wrote:

Too bad you missed Ironman then there were all armies represented.

Every army was equally represented, or are you just saying that the field was big enough that you had at least every army represented? Because I'm bemoaning the percentage that certain army types currently seem to be appearing at tournaments.

I would love for someone to run a specialty type of tournament where there are only so many slots open for each type of army. I love crap like that. One of my favorite tournaments all-time was a 'no-MEQ' tournament. I'd love to get off my butt and get some interesting tournament ideas like this organized...although sadly probably not while Dakka & INAT suck up so much of my hobby time.

yakface wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:If you guys are concerned about Space Wolves "Rock" I suggest bringing "Paper"

I don't know that there is some all encompassing 'paper' to counter Space Wolves because they have several different builds that do different things...and if there is, I'm pretty sure I don't have access to it with my collection of painted models (I don't enjoy playing with unpainted models). My Kan wall is definitely a counter to the Thunderwolf heavy Space Wolves, but not so much the super-shooty bulid.

But more importantly, you seem to have misunderstood my point. I could care less if Space Wolves win or not. I just think diversity in armies is more fun to play against. I would rather lose all 5 of my games to army types I rarely get to play against then to go 5-0 against five Space Wolf armies. Which is also why the 'if you can't beat them, join them!' mentality is flawed as well. I don't care if Wolves win every tournament from here on out...I'm just sad when there's a lack of variety in army types because I enjoy seeing and playing against different types of armies.

I agree with that. Army variety is much more fun. I'm the kind of player who prefers different and interesting over conventional myself. MEQ spam can get boring.

What to do though? GW refuses to make a Xenos codex that really kicks ass and people like quality armies. I'm not sure what the solution is other than telling GW to spice it up a bit with their codex creation (no I'll never consider comp).

Kevin Nash wrote:
I agree with that. Army variety is much more fun. I'm the kind of player who prefers different and interesting over conventional myself. MEQ spam can get boring.

What to do though? GW refuses to make a Xenos codex that really kicks ass and people like quality armies. I'm not sure what the solution is other than telling GW to spice it up a bit with their codex creation (no I'll never consider comp).

I think one thing that can be 'done' as long as the local community is open-minded (I don't know if ours is or not) is, if you're running say a tournament a month, make 2-3 of those tournaments each year into something a bit more wacky, and make it clear that these tournaments don't count for the overall standings.

Presenting it this way also makes people feel more comfortable with having some wackier tournament rules, because they know its just 'stepping out' from the usual strict tourney environment.

So yeah, at these tournaments you could try some version of comp or even do something like I said about just making a tournament a 'no space wolves' tournament just for fun (just an example, of course).

Another comp idea I've thought could be fun would be player enforced comp. Basically you'd have a tournament with only so many slots open for each army type. Now here's the fun part: you have a public forum and players that want to play a certain army type have to submit their army lists via the forum. The players who get the limited spots for that army type are the ones who submit the army list using the fewest possible points. Players are free to keep 're-submitting' their army lists in kind of a 'bidding war' until you're left with people filling those spots with the least amount of points in their army that they still think they can compete with.

So if IG or SW are the popular army types then people will have to 'bid' to play with less points then everyone else or instead play with a less in demand army type.

yakface wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:
I agree with that. Army variety is much more fun. I'm the kind of player who prefers different and interesting over conventional myself. MEQ spam can get boring.

What to do though? GW refuses to make a Xenos codex that really kicks ass and people like quality armies. I'm not sure what the solution is other than telling GW to spice it up a bit with their codex creation (no I'll never consider comp).

I think one thing that can be 'done' as long as the local community is open-minded (I don't know if ours is or not) is, if you're running say a tournament a month, make 2-3 of those tournaments each year into something a bit more wacky, and make it clear that these tournaments don't count for the overall standings.

Presenting it this way also makes people feel more comfortable with having some wackier tournament rules, because they know its just 'stepping out' from the usual strict tourney environment.

So yeah, at these tournaments you could try some version of comp or even do something like I said about just making a tournament a 'no space wolves' tournament just for fun (just an example, of course).

Another comp idea I've thought could be fun would be player enforced comp. Basically you'd have a tournament with only so many slots open for each army type. Now here's the fun part: you have a public forum and players that want to play a certain army type have to submit their army lists via the forum. The players who get the limited spots for that army type are the ones who submit the army list using the fewest possible points. Players are free to keep 're-submitting' their army lists in kind of a 'bidding war' until you're left with people filling those spots with the least amount of points in their army that they still think they can compete with.

So if IG or SW are the popular army types then people will have to 'bid' to play with less points then everyone else or instead play with a less in demand army type.

I think there are interesting ways to create handicapping systems to promote more diverse army types. "Necrons play free!" is another idea I've thought of. I'm not sure if I'm interested in running tournaments like that, but I do see the impetus to change things up every once in a while. 40k is a reality in that the most recent codices are going to get the most attention and MEQ is simply just more popular than anything else. It's what the players want, at least it's what they are buying. If I were to do some kind of restrictive tournament I'd probably just label it a "games day" and it would likely be more campaign oriented. Limited slots for each codex, as you said. My time and stamina is finite though. If I'm doing stuff like that then I'm not doing Sprue Posse tournaments. Maybe it's better left to another local?

For these tournaments I would encourage players to use tools in their codex to punish players who take conventional armies and units instead of waiting for the TO to enforce some kind of arbitrary comp rule (I know you're not asking for that).

I have not seen any lists for the GT yet but I'm sure we're going to see at least 6 different codices represented. I think that's a pretty solid amount of variety, especially when no two armies are identical. How wide do we really need to meta-game to be anyway?

yakface wrote:

vhwolf wrote:

Too bad you missed Ironman then there were all armies represented.

Every army was equally represented, or are you just saying that the field was big enough that you had at least every army represented? Because I'm bemoaning the percentage that certain army types currently seem to be appearing at tournaments.

I would love for someone to run a specialty type of tournament where there are only so many slots open for each type of army. I love crap like that. One of my favorite tournaments all-time was a 'no-MEQ' tournament. I'd love to get off my butt and get some interesting tournament ideas like this organized...although sadly probably not while Dakka & INAT suck up so much of my hobby time.

Out of 47 players there were 6 Space Wolves, 2 Blood Angels (1 was night lords counts as BA), 2 Dark Angels, 4 Space Marine, 5 Chaos Marines, 6 Orc, 4 Tyranid, 3 Dark Eldar, 2 Eldar, 6 Imperial Gaurd, 2 Daemon Hunters, 1 Witch Hunters, 1 Necron, 1 Daemons, 2 Tau. The 4 players that went into round 4 undefeated were 1 Space Marine, 1 Dark Eldar, 1 Tyranid, and 1 Imperial Gaurd.

I have run a couple of tournaments where there is only one of each army allowed. I supplied them and you randomly picked your army each round. It was a lot of fun but it is not intended for all comers, you have to be really good to play any army at the drop of a hat. (you only got 30 min to look over the codex)

Well, I'm not bringing Space Wolves. Me & my Tyranids, a Boy and his Bugs.

Of course, I'm stricken with indecisiveness over which list to bring, given how many Long Fangs, and how many Rune Priests, are going to be in the building.

I am tempted to just bring BTs and put some only primed models on the table just to mix things up. The thing is my Wolves are fully painted and look really good. I think I have a fair shot at winning a painting award. Plus I prefer to use painted models.

Ah, we'll see.

Reecius wrote:I am tempted to just bring BTs and put some only primed models on the table just to mix things up. The thing is my Wolves are fully painted and look really good. I think I have a fair shot at winning a painting award. Plus I prefer to use painted models.

Ah, we'll see.

I hope you play the army you feel most comfortable making a run at the generalship award with. If those models are painted even better.

And by the way, in our RTT circuits last year we saw almost every codex represented with the understandable exceptions of Daemonhunters, Witchhunters, and Necrons. I wouldn't really be concerned about a homogenized field here. There will be plenty of codex representation.