Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

dogma wrote:

Amaya wrote:
Total:
55/91 642 yards 3 TDs 5 picks, 1 Rushing TD, 69.9 QB Rating

Yeah, the Steelers have won two Super Bowls despite his poor play.

John Elway's average passer rating across all Super Bowl appearances is 70.04.

No one is going to argue that Elway wasn't good.

Elway was good and deserves to be HoF. But he is nowhere near being on the of greatest QBs to ever play the game. Montana, Young, Bradshaw (mainly because of his SB play), Starr (also because of his SB play), Aikman, Brady, and P Manning are all better and there's probably a few more times you can add to that list.

dogma wrote:

Amaya wrote:lmao, by that logic Ben is a top 10 all time QB. He's barely one of the 10 best QBs in the league right now.

Really?

Brady, the elder Manning, Rodgers, Brees, maybe Rivers and the younger Manning...not really anyone else on that list. At worst he is number 7, and probably more like number 5, behind two definite Hall of Fame guys, and a possible third.

Bradford and Smith could move on to the list later, but we don't really know yet.

1. Brady (possibly the GOAT QB)
2. Rodgers (he's actually mobile unlike the other top 3)
3. P. Manning
4. Brees
5. Vick (He was on pace for a 4000 yard passing 1000 yard rushing season had he played all 16 games, 30 total TDs to 9 TOs is pretty good)
6. Rivers
7-10 is a mix. There's easily half a dozen QBs who could be in there.

The top 3 are really the stand out QBs, the next 3 are knocking on the door, and there's about another 10 QBs that are decent in the league. Ben has good years and then he goes and has terrible years. He's had two very good years, two terrible years, and 3 solid years that weren't really noteworthy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:Are you saying that Tom Brady can prevent interceptions? If so I think that you're implying he has jedi powers and if that's true he's cheating.

Although I think the Steelers cheat by rubbing balloons in Polamalu's hair.

Tom Brady's last 3 full seasons: 114 TDs, 25 Ints. Absurd numbers.

Less about Roethlisberger more about this guy:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So Tom Brady doesn't have jedi powers?

halonachos wrote:Less about Roethlisberger more about this guy:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So Tom Brady doesn't have jedi powers?

If Rodgers stays healthy and keeps doing what he is doing (or gets better), he'll be a potential GOAT QB. I'm surprised no one talks much about his athleticism, he's the best QB at scrambling not named Vick.

Edit: If a QBs greatness is determined by their Super Bowl wins, I propose that Super Bowl MVP awards are even more important.

Amaya wrote:
Elway was good and deserves to be HoF. But he is nowhere near being on the of greatest QBs to ever play the game. Montana, Young, Bradshaw (mainly because of his SB play), Starr (also because of his SB play), Aikman, Brady, and P Manning are all better and there's probably a few more times you can add to that list.

You realize that you're basically saying that a guy that has maybe 10-15 betters is not among the greatest players at his position?

Amaya wrote:
1. Brady (possibly the GOAT QB)
2. Rodgers (he's actually mobile unlike the other top 3)
3. P. Manning
4. Brees
5. Vick (He was on pace for a 4000 yard passing 1000 yard rushing season had he played all 16 games, 30 total TDs to 9 TOs is pretty good)
6. Rivers
7-10 is a mix. There's easily half a dozen QBs who could be in there.

Rodgers better than Peyton? Really? I mean, he's good, no doubt, but he's not better than a guy that's been consistently amazing for 13 years.

I also don't see the Vick being on the list at all. We're talking about a guy whose career average passer rating is 76.3. Compare this to Big Ben at 93.4, and a career in which his completion % has never dipped below 50; something that Vick has accomplished twice.

Amaya wrote:
The top 3 are really the stand out QBs, the next 3 are knocking on the door, and there's about another 10 QBs that are decent in the league. Ben has good years and then he goes and has terrible years. He's had two very good years, two terrible years, and 3 solid years that weren't really noteworthy.

Well, yeah, you would guess that players starting at the professional level are probably pretty good at what they do, so the estimate that 20 of the 32 starters in the league are good is probably a little on the low side.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:I'm surprised no one talks much about his athleticism, he's the best QB at scrambling not named Vick.

They talk about that basically every time he plays.

dogma wrote:

Amaya wrote:
Elway was good and deserves to be HoF. But he is nowhere near being on the of greatest QBs to ever play the game. Montana, Young, Bradshaw (mainly because of his SB play), Starr (also because of his SB play), Aikman, Brady, and P Manning are all better and there's probably a few more times you can add to that list.

You realize that you're basically saying that a guy that has maybe 10-15 betters is not among the greatest players at his position?

Amaya wrote:
1. Brady (possibly the GOAT QB)
2. Rodgers (he's actually mobile unlike the other top 3)
3. P. Manning
4. Brees
5. Vick (He was on pace for a 4000 yard passing 1000 yard rushing season had he played all 16 games, 30 total TDs to 9 TOs is pretty good)
6. Rivers
7-10 is a mix. There's easily half a dozen QBs who could be in there.

Rodgers better than Peyton? Really? I mean, he's good, no doubt, but he's not better than a guy that's been consistently amazing for 13 years.

I also don't see the Vick being on the list at all. We're talking about a guy whose career average passer rating is 76.3. Compare this to Big Ben at 93.4, and a career in which his completion % has never dipped below 50; something that Vick has accomplished twice.

Amaya wrote:
The top 3 are really the stand out QBs, the next 3 are knocking on the door, and there's about another 10 QBs that are decent in the league. Ben has good years and then he goes and has terrible years. He's had two very good years, two terrible years, and 3 solid years that weren't really noteworthy.

Well, yeah, you would guess that players starting at the professional level are probably pretty good at what they do, so the estimate that 20 of the 32 starters in the league are good is probably a little on the low side.

Didn't I just say that Elway is good and deserves to be a HoF? Yes, he's one of the best QBs ever, but he's nowhere near the guys I mentioned.

Vick has never been prone to throwing interceptions like Ben and he is easily the most mobile QB to ever play the game. As a complete player, his last three full seasons have been good and this last year was amazing.

You use Ben's QB rating to justify him being better than Vick and you ignore that Rodgers has the best QB rating for both the regular and postseason? Over the last three years he's played better than Manning, he's never turned the ball over frequently, he can actually scramble for significant yardage, and appears to be getting better while Manning is in a decline. The only reason he's not the top QB in the league right now is because Brady has been playing out of his mind.

Vick vs Ben

651/1147 7904 56 TD 32 Int 325 ATT 2312 YDs 17 TDs 11 FL 10216 yards 73 TDs 43 TOs
vs
864/1364 10829 60 TD 32 Int 108 ATT 359 YDs 6 TDs 13 FL 11188 yards 66 TDs 45 TOs

Vick has a slight edge to begin with and this last year just widened the gap.

Amaya wrote:
Didn't I just say that Elway is good and deserves to be a HoF? Yes, he's one of the best QBs ever, but he's nowhere near the guys I mentioned.

You also said that he wasn't one of greatest QBs ever.

Amaya wrote:
Vick has never been prone to throwing interceptions like Ben and he is easily the most mobile QB to ever play the game. As a complete player, his last three full seasons have been good and this last year was amazing.

Prone? Roethlisberger has thrown fewer interceptions per anum than most quarterbacks in the NFL.

But either way, Ben threw 23 interceptions in 2006. He also threw for 3,513 yards. Compare Vick at his worst, 13 picks with 2474 yards, and we can do some interesting statisticiary.

Ben = 152.7 yards per pick

Vick = 190.3 yards per pick

Vick clearly throws fewer picks per yard, but he also has never produced yardage on par with 'berger. It would be interesting to see how the number of interceptions relate to the amount of yards thrown for, but I don't really want to do that analysis right now.

Also, who cares about his ability as a complete player? He is a quarterback, at which he is either good or bad. If we're talking about complete player ability we really can only talk about multiple position professionals, or guys that converted after college; so Randle El, Deion Sanders, etc.

Amaya wrote:
You use Ben's QB rating to justify him being better than Vick and you ignore that Rodgers has the best QB rating for both the regular and postseason? Over the last three years he's played better than Manning, he's never turned the ball over frequently, he can actually scramble for significant yardage, and appears to be getting better while Manning is in a decline. The only reason he's not the top QB in the league right now is because Brady has been playing out of his mind.

Yes, I did, because Rodgers has only played for 3 years, and has both a great O-line and receiving corps.

And this last season Vick passed better than Ben and ran better than him. Over his career Vick has been an average pass and excellent scrambler. Ben has been a slightly above average QB and an average scrambler.

Edit: Great O-Line? Since when? Driver and Jennings are the only great recievers on the Packers. Jones and Nelson drop way too many passes. Finley is a good receiving tight end, but he was out all of this season.

Amaya wrote:And this last season Vick passed better than Ben and ran better than him. Over his career Vick has been an average pass and excellent scrambler. Ben has been a slightly above average QB and an average scrambler.

Uh, no. Vick has been a below average passer all but 2 years in which he has played. Consult this table, variable Q is passer rating.

Ben has the 8th highest career passer rating in history, and has not been below the league average except for 2006 over a career of the an identical length; in fact he has been above the average by at least 1 standard deviation every year except for 2006.

Amaya wrote:
Edit: Great O-Line? Since when? Driver and Jennings are the only great recievers on the Packers. Jones and Nelson drop way too many passes. Finley is a good receiving tight end, but he was out all of this season.

Since they've had Tauscher, Clifton, and Wells? Since they've had among the fewest sacks allowed per pass every year for 7 years except 2009?

As for receivers: seriously? All 4 Green Bay receivers were top 10 in yardage this post-season, and top 75 during the regular season (Driver was the worst, by the way).

I'm a Packer fan I won't say that Rodgers is better than P. Manning, yet. He has a lot of time to work on becoming as great though and I don't think anyone can say that he isn't on the right road.

As far as Driver being the worst its most likely due to the fact that Rodgers likes to spread the love around when it comes to passes. Driver is the most reliable receiver we have right now so hes going to be a target so he goes for the others and to tell the truth I was surprised with Nelson.

dogma wrote:

Amaya wrote:And this last season Vick passed better than Ben and ran better than him. Over his career Vick has been an average pass and excellent scrambler. Ben has been a slightly above average QB and an average scrambler.

Uh, no. Vick has been a below average passer all but 2 years in which he has played. Consult this table, variable Q is passer rating.

Ben has the 8th highest career passer rating in history, and has not been below the league average except for 2006 over a career of the an identical length; in fact he has been above the average by at least 1 standard deviation every year except for 2006.

Amaya wrote:
Edit: Great O-Line? Since when? Driver and Jennings are the only great recievers on the Packers. Jones and Nelson drop way too many passes. Finley is a good receiving tight end, but he was out all of this season.

Since they've had Tauscher, Clifton, and Wells? Since they've had among the fewest sacks allowed per pass every year for 7 years except 2009?

As for receivers: seriously? All 4 Green Bay receivers were top 10 in yardage this post-season, and top 75 during the regular season (Driver was the worst, by the way).

They were 19th in the league in sacks allowed...

Of course they were up there in postseason yardage...they're the only team that played 4 games in the postseason...

Big whoop they had 4 recievers in the top 75. That's not really notable when you consider the fact that at least 10 teams in the NFL have terrible passing offenses...

Driver dropped 7 passes, Jones dropped 6 (including two would be TDs), I can't find stats on the rest of their drops. Nelson dropped 4-5 passes in the Superbowl. Jones dropped 2 would be TDs in the playoffs. Driver dropped a pass that turned into a pick.

Jennings is good.
Driver is aging and had a bad year.
Jones is overrated.
Nelson number 2 or 3 receiver at best.

Driver dropped a pass that turned into a pick? In the Super Bowl the Packers had no turnovers so unless a pick is no longer a turnover he had no dropped passes that turned into a pick.

I'll really miss Driver when he decides to retire, I grew up with Favre, Driver, Green, White, and Bubba Franks.

halonachos wrote:Also, why is it that there are jokes about the Steelers' quarterback having a criminal record while there are none for the Packers' quarterback?

Hell, the only decent people you have on your team are Ward and Polamalu, by decent people I don't mean good players I mean nice guys.

Couple that with the fact that the Green Bay Packers are the only non-profit, community owned team says something about the caliber of people we have on our team. The 'G' stands for greatness and we expect greatness from our players and greatness from fellow fans.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-packers-assaultallegations

Ahem. No less than seven players were investigated. Hmm. Your team has had its share of scandals...including Mark Chmura, who was accused of doing something far worse.

Let's go around the NFL a little. What about Mark Sanchez, "the Sanchise"?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2423430

Oops.

Peyton Manning, Mr. Commercial is as clean as they come, right?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/colts/2003-11-04-manning-suit_x.htm

Oh dear.

Lesson here is that you don't point fingers, because things have a way of coming back around.

Concerning injuries, we didn't have our starter LB in, Zombo is a secondary, we lost almost our entire offensive scorers seeing as though we only had Driver and Rodgers left after the first game. In the Super Bowl we didn't have our starting kicker(Crosby) in until the 4th quarter and we lost Driver, Woodson, and Shields in the first quarter. Despite all this we still managed to beat you with Jones(who can't catch), Jennings(who can't keep the ball), and Nelson(a lesser known receiver). I didn't notice Kuhn playing either and he's our 3rd down conversion maker.

The Steelers started FOUR backup offensive lineman in the SB, FYI. Both teams had plenty of injuries.

Amaya wrote:He has 3 TDs and 5 picks in 3 Superbowls. He has the record for worst QB rating by a Super Bowl winning QB (in 2005). Ben gets carried by his defense and running backs.

Look, the guy might be a jagoff, but if you don't think BR is a terrific player, you simply don't know anything about football. People bring up the first SB...well, he was 23 years old and choked a bit. But he was *lights out* in the 3 games leading up to it. They won those games by throwing the football. I can loan you the DVDs if you're that interested. And that was with a bad thumb that prevented him from getting any velocity on the ball.

In the second SB, he should have been MVP. Bit of a joke that Holmes won it, IMO. And check out their running stats that year. The Steelers couldn't run the ball AT ALL that season. BR was the entire offense. Last year, 4300 yards passing, again with a mediocre to bad running game.

In this one, he wasn't himself. It happens to everyone, including Manning, Brady, etc. Seems to me your boy had a stinker of a game vs. the lowly Lions in December even before he got hurt. BR just picked a bad time to have a bad game. And it still wasn't truly an awful game, considering the first pick wasn't really his fault. The GB lineman just made a play...that happens too and you have to give credit where it's due. The Mendenhall fumble was the TO that did them in. And it was all very ironic considering how good the Steelers were at taking care of the football during the regular season.

And I can guarantee you that NFL coaches think BR is one of the single hardest players in the NFL to prepare for. No one in NFL circles questions the guy's ability. dogma has already outlined his career passer rating, etc. It's fantasy football culture that's led to him being overlooked in favor of empty numbers guys like Philip Rivers, etc. Again, major league jerk, yeah, sure. You can feel free to hate the guy personally. But denying the guy is an elite QB just isn't being in touch with reality.

The case took another twist when investigators announced that the alleged suspect and the women exchanged money before the alleged assault.

At least he payed before hand. In all seriousness I hope the guy gets kicked off the team, we don't need trash like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chmura was accused on April 8th, 2000 he was released by the Packers in 2000...in fact it says that he only played from 1993 to 1999.

halonachos wrote:Driver dropped a pass that turned into a pick? In the Super Bowl the Packers had no turnovers so unless a pick is no longer a turnover he had no dropped passes that turned into a pick.

I'll really miss Driver when he decides to retire, I grew up with Favre, Driver, Green, White, and Bubba Franks.

It was in the NFC Championship game.


@Gorgon, sigh, let's go over Ben's career AGAIN

2004 - 2621 Yards 17 TDs 11 Ints 1 Rushing TD 2 FL. Efficient passing year, but he didn't pass enough to have that considered a good year.
2005 - 2385 Yards 17 TDs 9 Ints 3 Rushing TDs 1 FL. Efficient year, but missed 4 games.
2006 - 3513 Yards 18 TDs 23 Ints 2 Rushing TDs 2 FL. Terrible year.
2007 - 3154 Yards 32 TDs 11 Ints 2 Rushing TDs 3 FL. His best year yet. Lots of TD passes, yardage is unimpressive.
2008 - 3301 Yards 17 TDs 15 Ints 2 Rushing TDs 7 FL. His second 20+ Turnover season. Another bad year.
2009 - 4328 Yards 26 TDs 12 Ints 2 Rushing TDs 3 FL. His second very good season.
2010 - 3200 Yards 17 TDs 5 Ints 2 Rushing TDs 3 FL. Was on pace for a good season, but missed 4 games. Vick put up better numbers in the same amount of games.

Career Stats
99 GP
22502 Passing Yards
144 TDs
86 Ints
14 Rushing TDs
21 FL

To recap.

He has had two very good seasons.
He has had two awful seasons.
He's had 3 efficient, but low number seasons.

He's had the worst Superbowl performance by a winning QB.
He's had a decent Superbowl capped by a game winning drive.
He's had a Superbowl where he cost his team the game and was unable to move the ball until 3 of GB's starters were off the field due to injuries.

How exactly is he an elite QB?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think Big Ben is an elite quarterback due to his inability to be sacked. He's a fat guy who can run over a line backer if need be.

whatwhat wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

whatwhat wrote:The fact i think your beloved game of american football is boring is completely irelevant and not something I was raising there.

I'm actually suspicious that you popped in the thread being snarky to get around to saying exactly that.

No I was dragged into that by someone else. Does my opinion that american football is boring really matter to you? It is only my opinion.

Surely we can agree the line "the greatest show on earth" is pretentious bs?

The simple act of posting that you feel football is boring in a thread titled "Green Bay defeats Pittsburgh 31-25, Aaron Rodgers wins Super Bowl MVP" is akin to going into a biker bar and saying that motorcycles are lame. For some reason you felt compelled enough to go into a thread about the Super Bowl and say that its boring, I don't know why but I get the feeling that this thread was going to have a lot of people who rather enjoy watching football posting in it. If you like to drink tea don't go to a soda shop.

sexiest_hero wrote:The game was lost Because the Steelers QB kept forcing the balls up the middle. The Packers Defense held like a chastity belt around their end zone. The steeler qb couldn't score so tried to force his way in.

Pure genius.

@Halonachos, WhatWhat, whoever else: Please knock it off. It's long past tiresome. Thanks!

This just seemed appropriate.

Amaya wrote:
They were 19th in the league in sacks allowed...

And had major issues with injuries. Just look at their statistics over the last 7 years, not many teams have been consistently better in that area.

Amaya wrote:
Of course they were up there in postseason yardage...they're the only team that played 4 games in the postseason...

They weren't up there, they were all top 10. That's not just up there, even with an extra game to their name that is amazing; usually you would expect to see the extra outing significantly improve the numbers for only one or two guys at the position, not all 4.

Amaya wrote:
Big whoop they had 4 recievers in the top 75. That's not really notable when you consider the fact that at least 10 teams in the NFL have terrible passing offenses...

No, its very notable when you don't just look at 75 and thing "big number", but instead think about what that means in the proper context. Remember, the top 32 receivers are all number 1 options on their teams. Usually the next 32 are the number 2 options, and the following 32 will be a mix of number 3 and four options. This totals 96 players. For a team to have 4 players in the top 75 is very rare, and indicates that all of their rceivers are very good.

Amaya wrote:
Driver dropped 7 passes, Jones dropped 6 (including two would be TDs), I can't find stats on the rest of their drops. Nelson dropped 4-5 passes in the Superbowl. Jones dropped 2 would be TDs in the playoffs. Driver dropped a pass that turned into a pick.

No, those stats have to be wrong. Simply because a receiver touches a ball, but fails to catch it does not render it a drop. In order to count as a drop the receiver had to have a reasonable chance of catching the ball, which means the ball had to be within reach with his arms at full extension, and could not have been touched by a defender.

Remember, in 16 games the highest number of drops this year was Edwards with 16. You're basically claiming that a guy who played only one half in the super bowl (.5 of a game) nearly reached half of the total for the guy with the most drops in the NFL over an entire season.

Amaya wrote:
Jennings is good.
Driver is aging and had a bad year.
Jones is overrated.
Nelson number 2 or 3 receiver at best.

You know that being a number 1, 2, or 3 receiver has very little to do with the skill of the player, right?

Its about their talents, and how they fit into the offensive scheme. Nelson would be a very good number 1 or 2 due to being tall, and fairly fast with decent size (often times 2s will simply be a less talented natural 1). Driver is good fit at 2 due to being slower, and older than the other receivers; those guys don't do well at slot (3, where he played in the super bowl) because they can't get to their spot in time for throw; especially when jammed. Jennings is an ideal 1 or 3 due to his small size and great speed. Jones is effectively Drivers' replacement, and would likely do better than him at any of the positions he would be asked to play; though he should be primarily a 2 or a 3 (bg enough to muscle through backside jams, and fast enough to find his sport on short crossing saftey routes).

Amaya wrote: How exactly is he an elite QB?

You play fantasy football, right? Come on, admit it. You think Phillip Rivers is amazing, right?

You say BR had a bad year the year he won the SB. Behind a terrible offensive line and the league's 28th(?) ranked rushing offense. He carried that offense. But fantasy football types will look at yardage totals (yardage!!!) and criticize. I guess Dan Fouts was better than Joe Montana in your world.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

This just seemed appropriate.

Replace "local hero" with "roid freak" and you might have something there.

@Dogma. Green Bay has given up 110 sacks over 3 years. They are not good.

You obviously didn't watch the Super Bowl since you have no recollection of Nelson's drop fest and Jones' dropped TD.

@Gorgon. Do you read posts before you reply? Ben has been poor in the Super Bowl. His 'great comeback drive' was only successful because Holmes made an incredible catch. Ben has had only two stand out seasons.

Only 1 4000+ yard season.
Only 1 30+ TD season.
Only 2 seasons with 3500+ yards passing.
Only 2 seasons with 20+ passing TDs.
Only 3 Seasons with 20 TOTAL TDs.
Two Seasons with 20+ turnovers.


If Rivers had the Steeler's D he'd be winning Super Bowls too.

Amaya wrote:@Dogma. Green Bay has given up 110 sacks over 3 years. They are not good.

Its actually 134, seeing as that number favors your argument more, I'm surprised that you got it wrong. Either way, when you consider the entire career of the key components of this O-line, the number rise to 233, nut the average drops from 44.6, to 33.3. You know where the number of sacks starts to go up significantly? When Rodgers took over as quarterback. All scrambling quarterbacks take more sacks than pocket passers with good O-lines, largely because they tend to put blockers in terrible positions.

Amaya wrote:
You obviously didn't watch the Super Bowl since you have no recollection of Nelson's drop fest and Jones' dropped TD.

I did watch it, but I'll just say that there is no reason to trust your judgment here, as you've already attributed 7 drops to one player in a single half; which is just absurd.

Nelson had 1 drop that game, and while Jones did drop a TD, it really doesn't bear on his quality. Randy Moss has dropped TD passes, but that doesn't make him a bad receiver. It just makes overly emotional fans feel that way about him.

Amaya wrote:




Driver dropped 7 passes, Jones dropped 6 (including two would be TDs), I can't find stats on the rest of their drops. Nelson dropped 4-5 passes in the Superbowl. Jones dropped 2 would be TDs in the playoffs. Driver dropped a pass that turned into a pick.

@Dogma - /facepalm I even specified that Nelson's drops were in the Super Bowl. Where did I suggest that Driver dropped 7 passes in the Super Bowl?