Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

biccat wrote:

Mike Noble wrote:Yeah, hes left for an American, but from the overall world perspective, Leftism is not too common here, mostly just left leaning moderates who are considered far left because of how they compare to the rest.

So...what is a leftist?

You've said that Obama is on the right, and that the moderates in England are "left-leaning," but what makes a leftist?

I think now would be as good a time as any to say I don't claim to know anything. I'm just going off of the test here.



As you can see, they put Obama in the same quadrant as Palin and McCain. Not as far in, but there.

I'm not sure I understand you're question, are you not sure what a Leftist is or something?

Mike Noble wrote:

biccat wrote:

Mike Noble wrote:Yeah, hes left for an American, but from the overall world perspective, Leftism is not too common here, mostly just left leaning moderates who are considered far left because of how they compare to the rest.

So...what is a leftist?

You've said that Obama is on the right, and that the moderates in England are "left-leaning," but what makes a leftist?

I think now would be as good a time as any to say I don't claim to know anything. I'm just going off of the test here.



As you can see, they put Obama in the same quadrant as Palin and McCain. Not as far in, but there.

I'm not sure I understand you're question, are you not sure what a Leftist is or something?

That doesn't make any sense. If obama took the test he would likely score in the same lower left mid area that most of us did. The test is gak. To score that high on conservative or authoritarian he would have to strongly agree on half the racism and totalitarian control questions on there without actually considering any of their meanings. Hell, to go past 30% to the right you basically have to be an insane anti environment corporatist who hates minorities. That doesn't line up to the actual test at all.

The 'Do Nothing Party', vote us in and we won't fix anything, but we won't mess anything up either.

I get really fething tired of having positions held by one side being defined by the other side.
do i really think Elrustbo or Glen Beck know what's in a liberal(or Progressive, forgot they
changed the Buzz word! ) persons heart or mind? No. or if Chris Matthews knows
what is in Sarah Palins heart or mind? again, no.

but that's all part of the warfare of the political arena.
"Say it loud enough and often enough, it becomes the truth."

This apparently translates to "Completely apathetic about politics." I just wanna be left alone to do what I want and I think we would be better off that way as a whole. I think i'm probably just naive though.

Mike Noble wrote:I'm not sure I understand you're question, are you not sure what a Leftist is or something?

You're saying that Democrats are moderate/right, and Obama himself is right of center. I'm simply asking, if Democrats aren't left of center, who is?

I can define positions that are right of center, and most of them don't fit the DNC or the President. For example:

Small government
Legislate on moral issues
Pro-life
Pro-business
Opposing social welfare

So what are some left-wing ideas? How do they not conform to the Democrats, or President Obama?

I'm genuinely curious.

I believe that in a perfect state, the government would control a few necessary industries for the good of all. For example, state run education and healthcare. Taxes would be high, but people would get much out of this. This is basically a socialist ideal, but I must recognize that this will never happen in the USA. So while I chose Socialism, I'm usually going to side with the democrats. However I find that people must view each decision independently of party lines, and I find myself siding with republicans (the sane ones) surprisingly often. If you're wondering what I mean by "the sane ones", I'm talking about the smart ones who don't get much screen time because they don't scream about "how we must checkwhat members of the government are pro-american or anti-american" or that Obama "is trying to kill grandma with death panels", or "socialism is going to kill your dog and brainwash your kid!". You get the point.

The one question that bothers me is about astrology.

What does pseudoscience have to do with one's political leaning?

At any rate:

Economic Left/Right: -5.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.74


Automatically Appended Next Post:

biccat wrote:You're saying that Democrats are moderate/right, and Obama himself is right of center. I'm simply asking, if Democrats aren't left of center, who is?

In the US? Neither major party is particularly left-winged.

biccat wrote:Legislate on moral issues
Pro-life

Those aren't right-winged ideas, those are authoritarian ideas.

Polonius wrote:
It seems to me that absent a government, the strong will simply enslave the weak.

And probably create a government to boot.

There should be an option for 'nothing as complex as politics can be described by single word descriptors, and if your politics can be so simply described then your opinions are likely terrible'.

Here's a different political a compass although it has a bigger Canadian bias, but it might be a bit better than the current one being passed around.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadavotes2011/votecompass/

Melissia wrote:The one question that bothers me is about astrology.

What does pseudoscience have to do with one's political leaning?

People who believe pseudoscience like astrology probably tend to be more liberal.

People who believe pseudoscience like faith healing probably tend to be more conservative.

Melissia wrote:

biccat wrote:You're saying that Democrats are moderate/right, and Obama himself is right of center. I'm simply asking, if Democrats aren't left of center, who is?

In the US? Neither major party is particularly left-winged.

So maybe you can answer the question: what makes one left-winged?

Our incessant need to break down everything into silly/dumb/wrong one or two word descriptors is really agitating to me.


On the Canadian election scale I am about in the same spot I am now except a little further up. I am pretty much on the say place on the X axis, but right on the dividing line between the top and bottom of the Y axis. Couldn't answer some of the questions since I'm not really sure what they are.

biccat wrote:So maybe you can answer the question: what makes one left-winged?

Left-leaning economics is marked by public (government) ownership of companies. That's kinda why people tried to claim that Obama was socialist when he tried to bail out the banks-- that was the CLOSEST either of the parties got to being left-winged.

Melissia wrote:

biccat wrote:So maybe you can answer the question: what makes one left-winged?

Left-leaning economics is marked by public (government) ownership of companies. That's kinda why people tried to claim that Obama was socialist when he tried to bail out the banks-- that was the CLOSEST either of the parties got to being left-winged.

But not when the government owned the majority of GM, correct?

biccat wrote:

Melissia wrote:The one question that bothers me is about astrology.

What does pseudoscience have to do with one's political leaning?

People who believe pseudoscience like astrology probably tend to be more liberal.

People who believe pseudoscience like faith healing probably tend to be more conservative.

What?

biccat wrote:But not when the government owned the majority of GM, correct?

That was another bailout that was objected and called "socialist".

But I would hesitate to call it such as it is/was intended as a temporary to stabilize the capitalist economy.

Manchu wrote:

biccat wrote:

Melissia wrote:The one question that bothers me is about astrology.

What does pseudoscience have to do with one's political leaning?

People who believe pseudoscience like astrology probably tend to be more liberal.

People who believe pseudoscience like faith healing probably tend to be more conservative.

What?

I think he is presuming the faith healers and those being faith healed are Christian whereas the ones who believe in astrology are "new age" pagan wannabe types.

Melissia wrote:

biccat wrote:But not when the government owned the majority of GM, correct?

That was another bailout that was objected and called "socialist".

But I would hesitate to call it such as it is/was intended as a temporary to stabilize the capitalist economy.

OK, so when the government takes over a company, it's left-wing socialism.

When the government props up a failing industry and imposes demands on that industry, it's not left-wing socialism.

When the government partially takes over a company but promises at some point in the future to sell it back to private investors (which it still hasn't done), it's not left-wing socialism.

This is quite confusing.

@c.a.f.: Yeah, but still -- what? I guess I am expressing deep incredulity at that statement.

Manchu wrote:Yeah, but still -- what? I guess I am expressing deep incredulity at that statement.

I think the second layer of implications is that most "new agers" are liberal whereas most american Christians are conservative which is more than a little nonsensical...

biccat wrote:This is quite confusing.

The world is neither black and white nor is it shades of grey, it is in full color.

I wonder if you would call ANY government right wing these days, given your confusion over this issue.

corpsesarefun wrote:I think he is presuming the faith healers and those being faith healed are Christian whereas the ones who believe in astrology are "new age" pagan wannabe types.

You don't have to be Christian to believe in "Faith Healing" - which is the idea that god/gods/whatever is 'healing' your wounds. But yeah, most people who believe in it are Christian.

The idea of "astrology" or other pseudosciences tend to be more of the pagan wannabe type, who tend to be more liberal.

Idiots all of them, but I was trying to be diplomatic and include crazy right-wingers in my post.

If the government permantly controls buisnesses it is socialist. A lot of socialism is to do with having the state in control of industry.

What Obama did is just support the banks for the benefit of the country with the intention of them becoming stay private. This isn't socialist

Melissia wrote:

biccat wrote:This is quite confusing.

The world is neither black and white nor is it shades of grey, it is in full color.

I wonder if you would call ANY government right wing these days, given your confusion over this issue.

I was simply asking for a definition of "left wing" that would clearly distinguish President Obama and the DNC as "right wing" as opposed to "left wing." Yours doesn't fit.

Manchu wrote:@c.a.f.: Yeah, but still -- what? I guess I am expressing deep incredulity at that statement.

OK, you're right, only crazy people can be right-wingers. You sir have bested me in interwebz debate. I doff my hat to you.

biccat wrote:
Small government

What is a small government?

biccat wrote:
Legislate on moral issues

Pro-choice, gay marriage, social justice, environmental justice, etc. aren't, or at least cannot be, moral issues?

biccat wrote:
Pro-business

The Democrats are pro-business in all meaningful senses.

biccat wrote:
Opposing social welfare

So does this mean that the GOP is left-of-center? They certainly don't oppose social welfare, not in any material sense.

biccat wrote:
OK, so when the government takes over a company, it's left-wing socialism.

When the government props up a failing industry and imposes demands on that industry, it's not left-wing socialism.

When the government partially takes over a company but promises at some point in the future to sell it back to private investors (which it still hasn't done), it's not left-wing socialism.

This is quite confusing.

Hoe is that confusing? You seem to have made good sense of the matter as described, and then feigned confusion in order to throw in a snide jab to illustrate your own ideology.

biccat wrote:

Melissia wrote:

biccat wrote:This is quite confusing.

The world is neither black and white nor is it shades of grey, it is in full color.

I wonder if you would call ANY government right wing these days, given your confusion over this issue.

I was simply asking for a definition of "left wing" that would clearly distinguish President Obama and the DNC as "right wing" as opposed to "left wing." Yours doesn't fit.

Manchu wrote:@c.a.f.: Yeah, but still -- what? I guess I am expressing deep incredulity at that statement.

OK, you're right, only crazy people can be right-wingers. You sir have bested me in interwebz debate. I doff my hat to you.

Maybe we should just call each other people, not crazy? That seems a bit touchie for someone saying "what?", imho/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

biccat wrote:

Melissia wrote:

biccat wrote:This is quite confusing.

The world is neither black and white nor is it shades of grey, it is in full color.

I wonder if you would call ANY government right wing these days, given your confusion over this issue.

I was simply asking for a definition of "left wing" that would clearly distinguish President Obama and the DNC as "right wing" as opposed to "left wing." Yours doesn't fit.

Manchu wrote:@c.a.f.: Yeah, but still -- what? I guess I am expressing deep incredulity at that statement.

OK, you're right, only crazy people can be right-wingers. You sir have bested me in interwebz debate. I doff my hat to you.

Maybe we should just call each other people, not crazy? That seems a bit touchie for someone saying "what?", imho?

Here you go Biccat

Broad left-wing:
"We're all in this together."

Broad right-wing:
"F you I got mine."

Now, that is horribly generalized, because its hard to break down people into quick and easy sound-bytes. People sure try hard though.

I'm still wondering why the political spectrum is taken seriously as a means of describing political parties and their policies.

dogma wrote:

biccat wrote:
OK, so when the government takes over a company, it's left-wing socialism.

When the government props up a failing industry and imposes demands on that industry, it's not left-wing socialism.

When the government partially takes over a company but promises at some point in the future to sell it back to private investors (which it still hasn't done), it's not left-wing socialism.

This is quite confusing.

Hoe is that confusing? You seem to have made good sense of the matter as described, and then feigned confusion in order to throw in a snide jab to illustrate your own ideology.

It's confusing because:
1: Government takes over a company = socialism.

Got it, this is clearly understood. "Taking over" implies two elements: a) the government is using collective wealth to support the industry; and b) conditions on the industry are imposed by governmenet actors, not private ones.

2: Government props up a company and imposes demands on that company = not-socialism.

Not sure how this follows. By propping up a company, the government is using tax dollars (government money, collective wealth, what have you) to support the industry. By imposing demands on that company, conditions are imposed by government actors, not private ones.

3: Government buys part of a company, promises to sell back the company later = not-socialism.

Still using taxpayer dollars to support an industry. Still imposing demands, only instead of those demands being by force of law (see #2), they are based on ownership as a shareholder. This is much closer to example #1 than example #2.
------------

Yes, this means that the Republicans have some socialist/left wing tendencies, or at least, have in the past.

Note that Republican =/= "right wing."

*Also, I didn't address the rest of your post because it's not relevant to the present issue. I am not dodging the issues you raised, it's just that they are immaterial to the point being discussed.