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If they had used the word "attack" instead of "something" then your argument would have no basis.

As it stands "something" can indeed be "weapon" and therfore your argument has merit.

I am not surprised to see my arguments are useless

Ahh. Thank you Yak. And yes, that is a good point. Is that why everyone's having so much trouble with this? Because as intent goes that's the best I've heard so far. The instant death rule was probably intended to only work against 'attacks.' Although, maybe they said 'something' to leave it open to booby traps or whatever. Again, I'm using the I word. Sorry.

"Attacks" would have worked in all situations. Even booby traps. If it has a Strength (as far as I can think of) it can fall under the generic term "attack".

"hits" would have worked just as well. Or to be consistent, GW could have actually assigned a strenght to every wound you can take.... AFAIK only wrecked/exploding vehicles and gets hot lack a str to use for ID/wounding purposes, even among other "automatic wounds".

It goes like this:

"If a creature is wounded by something which has a Strength value of double their toughness value..."

"If you roll a 1 to hit, the weapon has overheated and injured the model firing it."

I'm not comfortable assuming blanket distinctions between "fluff" and "rules."

The plasma gun overheated and injured (wounded) the model using it. The plasma gun, we know, has a strength of 7--which is a fixed characteristic and the only relevant consideration since the rule doesn't mention "strength of attack" or "shot strength" or whatever. So the plasma gun is technically "something" with a strength value double the toughness of the model and it caused a wound via the "gets hot" rule.

It's extremely coincidental and I don't want to actually have to support the argument with logic or anything, and all Honky Bro's arguments about "weapons" and so forth are pretty much irrelevant. But I think the actual words of the rule hit an unfortunate semantic compatablity that supports Honky Bro's conclusion.

Posted By Flavius Infernus on 02/23/2006 6:35 PM
It's extremely coincidental and I don't want to actually have to support the argument with logic or anything, and all Honky Bro's arguments about "weapons" and so forth are pretty much irrelevant. But I think the actual words of the rule hit an unfortunate semantic compatablity that supports Honky Bro's conclusion.

 

It's like the whole 'monkeys and the typewriters' joke. If HonkeyBro makes a 1,000 posts a day for a 1,000 years eventually a coherent argument will eventually be formed.

 

j/k HoneyBro. . .you know I love you man.

 

 

I think that you are making a connection that shouldn't be made.

The rule says "something", that something is the overheat.

The plasmagun causes the overheat, not the wound.
The overheat causes the wound, but has no strength.

You're going too far back.

"Guns don't kill people, the bullets kill people."

"Guns don't kill people, rappers do..."

You knows it.

So a quick recap. This is glaives first argument and my response:

Glaive: Question: Can the IG wargear item "Medi-pack" be used to ignore the first failed save per turn of a plasmagun overheating?

Premise 1: Medi -packs can't be used if the model has been inta-killed. "The medi-pack may not be used by any model which suffers instant death (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook)..." pg. 35 Codex Imperial Guard

Premise 2: When a plasmagun overheats the weapon wounds the user. "...the weapon has overheated and injured the model firing it. The model must make an Armour Save or it suffers a wound..."pg 30 BGB

Premise 3: When something is wounded by anything that has a Strength double their Toughness or more they are insta-killed. "If a creature is wounded by something which has a Strength value of double their Toughness value or greater and fail their save they are killed outright and removed as a casualty." pg. 27 BGB

Conclusion: Medi-packs cannot be used to save a T3 guardman from a plasma oveheat.

Mauleed: Premise 2 is simply false. No rule, and particularly not the one you quoted, says the weapon wounds the user.

Then in response, Glaive posts:

Question: Is the wound caused by the 'Gets Hot' rule related to the weapon?

Premise 1: When a weapon overheats it is responsible for the wound that occurs. "If you roll a 1 to hit, the weapon has overheated and injured the model firing it. The model must make an Armor Save or it suffers a wound (an exception to the normal Casualty Removal rules) - the model with the overheating weapon must take the wound."

Premise 2: Even though the evidence for Premise 1 has been deemed inadmissable as evidence there is still more. "It is possible for a model to hit with shots that also result in an overheat - the hits are still resolved as normal, even if the firer also falls victim to his own weapon."

Premise 3: The 'Gets Hot' rule is only ever used by weapons that possess that trait. In other words, 'Gets Hot' doesn't just randomly occur. A weapon that is subject to that rule is needed to invoke the rule. " 'Gets Hot' represents the penchant of certain unstable weapons for overloading and badly singeing their user." "Plasma gun Range 24" S7 AP2 Type Rapid Fire, Gets Hot!"

Conclusion: The wound is not only related to the weapon, but it is caused by the weapon.

Several problems with this: First, you didn't make your conclusion of the second argument the same as the second premise of the first argument, so you still haven't proved your first argument, and hence the second one is irrelevant here.

Second, premise 1 of argument 2 is not supported by the rule you've listed. It's included argument 2's conclusion in it, and hence is "begging the question".

Premise 2 of that argument isn't a premise at all. It's an attempt to provide another rules quote for premise 1.

Premise 3, while correct, doesn't provide support for your conclusion.

Hence you're second argument is no argument at all, so it can't support your first argument, and you're right back where you were.

 

You sir... You sir, are a genious. While the rest of the sheep have bowed down and accepted Honkey Bro's incoherent arguments you continue to fight on. You will simply not accept that the plasmagun wounds the user. Of course, you also don't believe that the conclusion:

The wound is not only related to the weapon, but it is caused by the weapon.

is the same as this premise:

When a plasmagun overheats the weapon wounds the user.

This brings debating to a whole new level and I must applaude you for that.

Honkey Bro is a menace. A menace that must be stopped. The rest of us have sat idle too long for fear of reprisal, but NO MORE! Mauleed has picked up the torch and started marching. Now I march with him.

For those still not convinced of Honkey Bro's tyranny... or tirany... badness we simply need to review the evidence of this thread. This thread is a complete waste of time. I don't even know why he brought it up since he doesn't even play guard. Mauleed and I have made it perfectly clear Honkey Bro. Medi-packs DO NOT overheat! Your premise 5A is completely flawed. Just because you wrote "You Suck" in my rulebook does not make it a rule. And it's written in crayon anyways. I have it on good authority that GW sanctioned rules are NEVER written in crayon. Mauleed, back me up here.

And another thing. He don't even work the english language right! Have of his incognative posts don't even make sense. If mauleed and I have to tell you one more time that medics can't use plasma as a weapon we're going to go crazy. I mean its AP2 for crying out loud. How's a medic supposed to use that? And saying that Armour Saves don't apply to the apothecary doesn't help your case either Honkey Bro. In fact, it proves the exact opposite of your case! It opposite proves it. Some might say unproves it or inproves it. I don't think there is an actual phrase for it but it doesn't matter because you're still wrong Honkey Bro.

All mauleed and I need now is a catchy title for our group of freedom fighters. Hmmm...It should be something origional that clearly identifies us as anti-badness. I've got it! From now on we will be known as:

"He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" Ha! Now that's a title that will strike fear into the hearts of Honkey Bro everywhere! It's a title that will rock your face and leave you wanting more baby! And don't bother trying to tame 'He-Man and the Masters of the Universe' (HMATMOTU) ladies, becaue they can't be tamed. They're rebels who play by their own rules...as long as those rules are the WH40K rules. No, actually we use our own. Yeah, forget that part about WH40K rules. But, we do still use them.

obviously, my post was duplicated because of shear awsomeness.

No it wasn't. It was duplicated because your firewall settings suck Glaive.

What the!? Are you posting using my username Honkey Bro!?

No

Good. Because if I ever catch you doing that mauleed and I will come down on you like a ton of bricks. That's right! 'He-Man and the Mystery...I mean Magic...or, whatever' is not a group to be triffled with. In fact, Strike 3 Honkey Bro! Strike 3!

If I ever play you again I'm going to prove that your premises are false by PWNing you majorly. My IG are going to win all over your Orks. Your Orks will be covered in so much IG win they won't know what to do with themselves. Yeah, there's going to be win everywhere. IG win! You're going to be like "What happened?" and I'll be all "IG win. That's what happened." Since we're playing tonight that's when it's going to happen.

What the hell is going on! You know Glaive, I have a picture for you, but Yak says I can't post it anymore. So I will describe it to you. It is a picture of Calvin, labeled "Honkey Bro" urinating on a old man with a beard chewing on a pair of wooden steps labeled "Glaive".

Yak, can I please post the picture?  What if I replace Calvin's urine with the word "urine", that way you have to use your imagination.

Ha! If you think a picture of urine will stop me and mauleed you're sadly mistaken friend! In fact it would take hundreds of pictures of tanker trucks full of urine to stop us!  Although, it does bring up an interesting point about medics I still can't see how this supports your premise 2 subsection A: "Plasma is like blood, and blood is good. Good things don't wound models. Only bad things wound models."

I'm sure we can all agree that your premise is false. If we can't all agree on that than we probably should start.

Hehe 'urine'

I see how it is. You get proven wrong with the quotes and rules brought up by Mauleed and now you are trying to trash this thread and make it go away! Sad Glaive, just sad. Maybe you should present your argument in the form of a premise and 2 conclusions.

Premise 1: mauleed posted rules quotes "This is a rules quote" pg. 3 of this thread

Conclusion 1: Honkey Bro will probably soon be banned

Conclusion 2: Honkey Bro has never seen an episode of Knight Rider.

Now what do you have to say to that? I think mauleed said it best in this thread when he wrote "And I'm not going to bother wasting my time replying" Honkey Bro if that doesn't prove that medics don't overheat I don't know what does. mauleed and I can only do so much.

You are such a brown noser Glaive "Mauleed Lover" Company CO. How about this argurment:

Premise 1: "Glavie" can't count to twenty with his shoes on.

Conclusion 1: This means he crotch stuffs. (like lenny kravitz)

Besides, your second conclusion is obvioulsy based on the fallacty of ignoramis (thanks flavious). I have too seen an episode of Knight Rider. that is the one with the baywatch guy on the talking boat right?

Dude, don't use latin phrases you don't even know. It's a fallic argument at best and your conclusion doesn't even follow the standars roman greco form of debation.

Premise 1: plasma guns can save medics that have overheated.

Conclusion: medics are not models.

This comes straight from the quote "Honkeybro keeps making a real world physics argument" I think mauleed summed it up pretty well there. Try to refute that!

This comes straight from the quote "Honkeybro keeps making a real world physics argument" I think mauleed summed it up pretty well there. Try to refute that!

So you want to argue Symantic's huh? Here is one for you, why do you keep hiding behind Mauleed. Where is the baby boy? Where did he go? Is he afraid of losing to the big Ork player? Why don't you come away from you Mommy and fight me!

Take a break mauleed, I'll handle this one.

If you want the full monty you'll get it pal. I'm going to hit you with so much rule quoting ruules quotes you won't even be able to think straight. I'm gonna quote the hell out of the rules. And just when you've thought there weren't any more rules to quote. I'll throw a premise at you! Yeah! you like that!? How's about another premise!? Oh, conclusions!? I've got those too man! Just name the place dude!

You wanna go, lets go.

"As you can see, both are similar in some respects. they have the same Initiative value whihc means they are equilly quick in close combat"

"Vehicle characteristics are described in more detail in the Vehicles section."

"Which player gets the first turn of the game can be determined in a number of different ways."

"It may also be convenient to interrupt a player's turn because of some event occurring."

Conclusion: Glaive cannot afford a rule book. He cannot afford models. He uses rocks and cereal pieces to "proxy" his troops. His rulebook consists of using the TV Guide he found in the trash.

Oh, but I can afford a bunch of smack down! and here it is:

Pg 56 BGB "7:00 CBS Three's Company, Jack misunderstands a conversation he overhears and believes that Mr. Roper is hitting on him"

Pg 82 BGB "4:30 NBC A-Team, When a small tribe of south american villagers is terrorized by a local warlord they're only hope is Hannibal and his men."

Pg 107 BGB "3:00 TBS People's Court, Judge Wapner and Rusty have a laugh when Doug luellen mispronounces the word inconcievable"

Conclusion: A plasma gun made out of a fruit loops is so tasty it will wound the user. User being 'eater' in this case.

DO YOU SEE WHAT I HAVE TO DEAL WITH! It is hard to argue rules with someone like that. It is almost like dealing with Relic_OMO.

And now a random fact about Glaive Company CO:

He sings "she works hard for the money" throughout the entire game!

Oh, but I can afford a bunch of smack down! and here it is:

Pg 56 BGB "7:00 CBS Three's Company, Jack misunderstands a conversation he overhears and believes that Mr. Roper is hitting on him"

Pg 82 BGB "4:30 NBC A-Team, When a small tribe of south american villagers is terrorized by a local warlord they're only hope is Hannibal and his men."

Pg 107 BGB "3:00 TBS People's Court, Judge Wapner and Rusty have a laugh when Doug luellen mispronounces the word inconcievable"

Conclusion: A plasma gun made out of a fruit loops is so tasty it will wound the user. User being 'eater' in this case.

What makes it worse, is that he uses a V1 TV Guide!!!

He sings "she works hard for the money" throughout the entire game!

Hehe, except I always sing it as "He works hard for the plasma, so a medic can-not heal!" Or I sing Charma Chameleon, but refuse to change the lyrics because that song is totally Rad to the Max.