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Heh, I remember this topic. Because it comes up a lot I tried to get all the fluff accounts on the first page, so the 7 foot camp could win before the arguments started with the 9 foot camp.

It seems like you won, in the sense that you did all the right things and nobody managed to contradict you at all, because you are completely correct.

History will record the victors as being the thousands of guys running around thinking that 9 is more than 7, and besides which they heard some guys talking down at the shop so nine feet must be right.

It would be satisfying to find out if the poster who resurrected the thread ever checks it again/had read the first page. Gonna watch his post count real assiduously.

People who keep saying they want space marines taller than 7.5 feet are forgetting a few things.

1. Their mass is FAR greater than a 7'6" basketball player.
2. Their bodies are more than just upsized humans. They are genetically modified and far stronger and more powerful than an upsized human.
3. Marines still need to function in human environments, at least a little. If they were much larger than seven and a half feet in armor, they wouldn't be able to use human doors, hallways, vehicles (in a pinch) or equipment.

All of the important stuff has been said that makes the 9 and 10 foot camp seem a little silly.

I did enjoy the more sensible posts of the thread. Good necro.

 PhillyT wrote:
People who keep saying they want space marines taller than 7.5 feet are forgetting a few things..

Your points are all good. Besides, anyone who thinks 7 feet isn't impressive enough is a person who never got close to his local basketball team or whatever. A tall muscular man will "tower" over 99% of us even if he's not seven feet but only 6 and six inches.

Just look at those "world's strongest man" guys. They're not the tallest, they don't have Schwarzenegger muscles - but they lift a normal man in each hand at the same time. 1.91 (6' 3'') at 130 kg is a huge man. 206 (6' 9'') and 140 kg is a giant among men. And a marine is going to be a lot wider, with even more raw muscle on him.

 PhillyT wrote:
People who keep saying they want space marines taller than 7.5 feet are forgetting a few things.

1. Their mass is FAR greater than a 7'6" basketball player.
2. Their bodies are more than just upsized humans. They are genetically modified and far stronger and more powerful than an upsized human.
3. Marines still need to function in human environments, at least a little. If they were much larger than seven and a half feet in armor, they wouldn't be able to use human doors, hallways, vehicles (in a pinch) or equipment.

The last point has been refuted a gazillion times. The Imperium has oversized architecture to the point where this does not really matter.

The other two are just 'they are good enough' points, which is entirely irrelevant. I propagate 9' due to aesthetics, not combat power.

The Imperium has huge buildings, sure.

The Space Marines spend an awful lot of their time in not-huge buildings or tunnel complexes and the like. A person the size and mass of a Space Marine is going to have further tactical complications that someone who is "only" 7 feet tall.

Further, a ten-foot-tall dude is a much easier target to hit.

Mmmh... Just to "create" some perspective
I'm 6'1" by 164 lbs... My girlfriend is 5'1.4"... She reaches a smidge under my shoulder (without heels)
7' is about the height of a standard doorframe... (Here, at least)
Another reference: Arnold Schwarzenegger is 6'2" tall, weights around 260 pounds, and looks like a giant.

Now, someone as tall as said doorframe is quite imposing, to me, with a mere 11" difference.. To my gf, the difference in height climbs to 23" (58.42 cm - over half a metre), and someone that tall would look simply huge (she would reach a bit over its waist).

From a human 'narrative' point of view, then, the description of a transhuman as an astartes may get biased by perspective (I myself would reach around the chest of someone 7'6" tall). From the "height bias" to other descriptive liberties, it's a short trip.

On the weight side, I'd start from an esteem of 280 pounds for a "normal" 7'6" person. From here, if memory serves me right.... I recall having read years ago (maybe during 2nd or 3rd edition description on the stages to make an astartes, it was a WD article), it stated (I think) that ossomodula and bioscopea implants alter mainly the density of a space marine body, resulting in a not much different frame, but with a 10% increment in weight. Assuming that my... ehrm... assumption is right, we get a 280+28=308 lbs. for a 7'6" astartes (225 cm by 140 kg) , or 220+22=242 lbs. for a 7' one (210 cm by 110 kg); both are very impressive frames and bulks, for "people".

Closing reference: the great khali (wwe) is 7'1" by 347 lbs, and looks like a freaking giant.

Bodybuilders often weigh in easily close to or over 300 pounds at 6'. Ronnie Coleman is a good example and he's 5'11.

There's no way that at 7-7.5 feet tall (people forget the "7 foot" Marine in the picture isn't standing straight up) is going to weigh only 242-308 pounds. They're packing two hearts, a denser skeletal structure, denser musculature, and are broader and thicker than a regular human being.

People get fooled by the "average" charts for height and weight. "Normal" is a soft and squishy civilian, not an professional soldier, let alone a biologically modified one.

Paul Sturgess is 324 pounds at 7'8". Kenny George is 7'7 and 370 pounds. And these guys are just basketball players.

I mean, at 6'1, 164, you're skinny. And that's not meant to be derogatory, but at my fighting weight in the Marines I was 6', 190-195, and I wasn't nearly the biggest guy in any of my platoons.

 PhillyT wrote:
People who keep saying they want space marines taller than 7.5 feet are forgetting a few things.

1. Their mass is FAR greater than a 7'6" basketball player.
2. Their bodies are more than just upsized humans. They are genetically modified and far stronger and more powerful than an upsized human.
3. Marines still need to function in human environments, at least a little. If they were much larger than seven and a half feet in armor, they wouldn't be able to use human doors, hallways, vehicles (in a pinch) or equipment.

Except this line of thinking doesn't work, as anything built by non-Feral world humans is absolutely gigantic and over sized gothic architecture in 40K. The smallest causeways still allow terminators to squeeze through.

Here is a pretty good example.This robocop statue is a little under 10 feet tall, and about the right girth:


I think it should be obvious that this guy would have great difficult operating anything made for humans. Imagine him trying to operate that camera, or eat a bowl of cereal. While there are some big open-plan buildings in 40k, I find it hard to imagine that things like vehicles (motorbikes?) bunkers etc... are going to be compatible with this guy. Imagine the poor Orks who have to fight this guy? They'd hardly come up to his belly button. Imagine trying to have a conversation with him, or what he'd look like walking around and sitting in a chair.

I can imagine Primarchs and odd characters like Ranulf being this tall, but it seems (to me) excessive for ordinary marines to all be this big. Is this really how other people see them?

It is. Looks good. Hell, there's a lot of references to how items made for humans are too small for Astartes use, and I have two sources (First Heretic and BA Omnibus) explaining how Astartes bolters are too heavy for humans to lift.

With a universe filled with giant orks and giant tyranids and giant daemons and various other giant xenos, designing human giants to fight them seems logical.

I grew up with artwork like this:


So I find it a difficult to think of them as giants. But I of course YMMV.

That picture, so cringeworthy on so many levels.

Thank the Gods that things have progressed very far since those days.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
People who keep saying they want space marines taller than 7.5 feet are forgetting a few things.

1. Their mass is FAR greater than a 7'6" basketball player.
2. Their bodies are more than just upsized humans. They are genetically modified and far stronger and more powerful than an upsized human.
3. Marines still need to function in human environments, at least a little. If they were much larger than seven and a half feet in armor, they wouldn't be able to use human doors, hallways, vehicles (in a pinch) or equipment.

The last point has been refuted a gazillion times. The Imperium has oversized architecture to the point where this does not really matter.

The other two are just 'they are good enough' points, which is entirely irrelevant. I propagate 9' due to aesthetics, not combat power.

Where has it ever been stated that they are 9' tall? Hasn't it been specifically stated in the fluff that they are in the 7' range?

As far as architecture, because some buildings use gothic architecture all are wide open and over engineered to fit giants? DOn't tell that to the tank hatches. Or to the humans like the Sisters who use space marine transports regularly.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
People who keep saying they want space marines taller than 7.5 feet are forgetting a few things.

1. Their mass is FAR greater than a 7'6" basketball player.
2. Their bodies are more than just upsized humans. They are genetically modified and far stronger and more powerful than an upsized human.
3. Marines still need to function in human environments, at least a little. If they were much larger than seven and a half feet in armor, they wouldn't be able to use human doors, hallways, vehicles (in a pinch) or equipment.

The last point has been refuted a gazillion times. The Imperium has oversized architecture to the point where this does not really matter.

The other two are just 'they are good enough' points, which is entirely irrelevant. I propagate 9' due to aesthetics, not combat power.

Where has it ever been stated that they are 9' tall? Hasn't it been specifically stated in the fluff that they are in the 7' range?

As far as architecture, because some buildings use gothic architecture all are wide open and over engineered to fit giants? DOn't tell that to the tank hatches. Or to the humans like the Sisters who use space marine transports regularly.

They use the same STC. Using different scales for different users is nothing else than logical. Hell, Inquisitorial Rhinos supposedly also fit ten henchmen, and if you think ten henchmen take as much space as ten Marines- even at 7'- I firmly disagree.

It has been stated that they are 7'. It has also been stated that they are 8', 7'6"... There are various other descriptions ('Half again the height of a man', do the math). All of it is equally canon/noncanon/halfcanon/whatever.

As an example of the 'different scale' assertion, let's look at bolters. We know humans use bolters, but we also know Astartes bolters are too big for humans to lift (Sources: TFH, BAO). What is the conclusion? Marines use things that are adjusted for their size.

At no point has it ever been said they were 9' tall on average.

On the other hand, it has been specifically referenced in fluff and by designers that they are in the 7' range.

As far as difference in engineering, the hatches are the same size for all of the rhinos and landraiders...

 PhillyT wrote:
On the other hand, it has been specifically referenced in fluff and by designers that they are in the 7' range.

Unfortunately that might just be in-universe propaganda.

The Imperial architecture depicted in artwork is mostly cathedrals and suchlike, which are intended to be vast buildings.

It is quite ridiculous to expect that to be Imperial standard (in fact, there is no such thing), as if hab workers lived in vast halls. It is like extrapolating from Note Dame to thinking that everybody in the Middle Ages lived in immense stained-glass buildings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or ancient Egyptians all lived in pyramids.

Alcibiades wrote:
The Imperial architecture depicted in artwork is mostly cathedrals and suchlike, which are intended to be vast buildings.

It is quite ridiculous to expect that to be Imperial standard (in fact, there is no such thing), as if hab workers lived in vast halls. It is like extrapolating from Note Dame to thinking that everybody in the Middle Ages lived in immense stained-glass buildings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or ancient Egyptians all lived in pyramids.

Space Marines are not supposed to enter hab units, either. The oversized Imperial architecture tends to be mainly in important structures and on ships, just where the SM want to be.

I don't agree with that assessment.

Space marines go where they are needed, not where they are supposed to be. If they needed to do a mission in a tight cave complex it seems hilariously silly to think they will need to send in storm troopers because marines are too big. Bigger marines lose all flexibility, which is the entire point of them.

There is no demonstrable reason to have such oversized marines as 9' plus. They can get everything done they need to at 7.5'. A marine of that size is no less strong or capable as a taller one and is still a match for a 10' ork nob.

 PhillyT wrote:
I don't agree with that assessment.

Space marines go where they are needed, not where they are supposed to be. If they needed to do a mission in a tight cave complex it seems hilariously silly to think they will need to send in storm troopers because marines are too big. Bigger marines lose all flexibility, which is the entire point of them.

There is no demonstrable reason to have such oversized marines as 9' plus. They can get everything done they need to at 7.5'. A marine of that size is no less strong or capable as a taller one and is still a match for a 10' ork nob.

Seems like some awfully arbitrary cave system that disabled 9' but allows 7'5".

Can you explain why there are no cave complexes that they have to enter but that are below 7'5" in height?

If they really have to get into that hab unit, they have explosives or can just smash their way inside.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The Imperial architecture depicted in artwork is mostly cathedrals and suchlike, which are intended to be vast buildings.

It is quite ridiculous to expect that to be Imperial standard (in fact, there is no such thing), as if hab workers lived in vast halls. It is like extrapolating from Note Dame to thinking that everybody in the Middle Ages lived in immense stained-glass buildings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or ancient Egyptians all lived in pyramids.

Space Marines are not supposed to enter hab units, either. The oversized Imperial architecture tends to be mainly in important structures and on ships, just where the SM want to be.

Space Marines should be able to operate inside hive cities, where most of the population lives. In fact, we know they do.

Ships are obviously mostly cramped structures by necessity.

Anyway, I find the idea that marines should be 8, 10, 12, whatever feet tall to be very strange. Who would think this was cool? . It's the kind of thing that I would have thought was cool when I was a kid. now it seems silly. It makes no sense, either practically or aeshetically.

Each to their own however.

Alcibiades wrote:
Who would think this was cool? . It's the kind of thing that I would have thought was cool when I was a kid. now it seems silly. It makes no sense, either practically or aeshetically.

Implying it is childish to prefer the aesthetics of having them very large? :|

 Pendix wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

10' is a bit OTT imo.

9' is a nice middle ground which I think works best.

Edit: Just realised the post I quoted is a necro post...

Wonderful little snap shot of Dakka history though.

*cough*spacecorridors*cough*

 Ashiraya wrote:
Rhinos supposedly also fit ten henchmen, and if you think ten henchmen take as much space as ten Marines- even at 7'- I firmly disagree.

maybe 'Space Marines' is actually sort for 'Space-saving Marines'?

I remember this question came up before when people asked why Ratlings take up the same amount of space as Marines. The official line was that they carry around lots of luggage.

 Smacks wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Rhinos supposedly also fit ten henchmen, and if you think ten henchmen take as much space as ten Marines- even at 7'- I firmly disagree.

maybe 'Space Marines' is actually sort for 'Space-saving Marines'?

I remember this question came up before when people asked why Ratlings take up the same amount of space as Marines. The official line was that they carry around lots of luggage.

They would need to carry something like 1000% of their body weight in luggage for that to work. Especially since Rhinos are consistently depicted as able to carry 10 Marines with space to move.

I don't buy it.

There are only ten life jackets under the seats, so eleven passengers is against health and safety regulations!

 Ashiraya wrote:

Seems like some awfully arbitrary cave system that disabled 9' but allows 7'5".

Not really. Seven foot marines can fit in spaces that are built so that normal sized people can comfortably move in them, without having huge amount of wasted space. Now try imagine nine foot marine in your apartment; do you see the problem?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Rhinos supposedly also fit ten henchmen, and if you think ten henchmen take as much space as ten Marines- even at 7'- I firmly disagree.

maybe 'Space Marines' is actually sort for 'Space-saving Marines'?

I remember this question came up before when people asked why Ratlings take up the same amount of space as Marines. The official line was that they carry around lots of luggage.

They would need to carry something like 1000% of their body weight in luggage for that to work. Especially since Rhinos are consistently depicted as able to carry 10 Marines with space to move.

I don't buy it.

These are Ratlings. 1000% of their body-weight is referred to as "lunch".