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2011/10/25 01:57:22
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Melissia wrote:Which logically follows from my definition. It is not an exception merely because "I don't like it".
But your definition is just what you like about liberalism, it isn't a descriptor for what liberalism really is.
My definition is my attempt to make sense of it all through a logical definition based off of what I know of the overall elements. You can argue I didn't do a good job, at the same time, I hardly think you did either
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/25 03:18:02
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
I feel like you have no idea what a no true Scotsman is. Otherwise you'd be able to phrase it into a no true Scotsman instead of just repeating it over and over again.
I see a lot of unsubstantiated claims and complaints about my references and still see none from you.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2011/10/25 03:31:49
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Melissia wrote:My definition is my attempt to make sense of it all through a logical definition based off of what I know of the overall elements. You can argue I didn't do a good job, at the same time, I hardly think you did either
It's not about arguing whether or not someone did a good job, it's about how to define something so that that definition is of any use in describing that thing. There is a place for talking about what the underlying core values of a movement ought to be, and what should bind a political bloc together, but that's got nothing to do with describing the various parts that actually make it up.
At which point we aren't arguing whether you did a good job, we're acknowledging you didn't do that job at all, because it never occurred to you that's how the job should be done. Which is fine. None of us walk straight up to the plate and start hitting home runs from our first effort. But really, once we strike out it really doesn't make any sense to ignore people trying to give you tips, and telling them we can agree to disagree on whether you hit or homerun or not.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2011/10/25 05:43:14
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
These labels are just like the labels teens give themselves.
They're pointless. Does anybody truly represent their party? No.
Me? I'm a freakin American who just wanted to deploy and shoot someone in the face because I was in the infantry. Good ole' 82nd, then I got sent to a humanitarian aid mission in Haiti and I was like "Hey, I'm a ground-pounder, not a Red Cross Worker." and the State Dept. was all like "BLAH BLAH BLAH People suffering." So the 101st took AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the slots for Afghanistan, and I was very much angry.
And what that has to do with anything.... I don't know. But my point is no politician represents his/her party well, so what's the point of looking at their party name? Just show me their damn track record.
Maybe you hang out with immature women. Maybe you're attracted to immature women because you think they'll let you shpadoink them.
2011/10/25 05:53:44
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Melissia wrote:My definition is my attempt to make sense of it all through a logical definition based off of what I know of the overall elements. You can argue I didn't do a good job, at the same time, I hardly think you did either
It's not about arguing whether or not someone did a good job, it's about how to define something so that that definition is of any use in describing that thing. There is a place for talking about what the underlying core values of a movement ought to be, and what should bind a political bloc together, but that's got nothing to do with describing the various parts that actually make it up.
Your "tips" sound more like nonsequiturs than a helping hand... that said, I wasn't talking about a political movement, but a practical, non-contradictory definition of the terms. I'm not even sure there is a proper "liberal" movement right now, more like a conglomeration of other movements conveniently labeled "liberal" simply because they oppose the ones labeled "conservative".
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/25 12:18:16
Subject: Re:Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
After reading your definitions i don't know where i stand. Maybe i'm a right wing liberal conservative?
I believe in govt intervention on important issues (but only if they have the money to do it) otherwise controlled market forces would be my favoured option. In my country the leftish govts spend the money the right wing govts have saved up. Every left wing govts debt levels in my lifetime make me cry.
In brief , I believe having 0 debt is THE most important part of govt policy , as when the gak hits the fan you can handle cleaning up the gak. Running a country that's debt ridden seems to be asking for BIG problems to me.
But i also believe that for some reason when it comes to politics everyone likes to tar the "other" side with a big brush of bs, thus preventing dialogue and actual discussion- in my mind the major flaw of the two party system.
2011/10/25 23:51:29
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Melissia wrote:Your "tips" sound more like nonsequiturs than a helping hand... that said, I wasn't talking about a political movement, but a practical, non-contradictory definition of the terms.
The end result of which is to try and form a definition of a thing without giving any reference to how that term is actually used in the real world. The only possible result from such an effort is nonsense.
I'm not even sure there is a proper "liberal" movement right now, more like a conglomeration of other movements conveniently labeled "liberal" simply because they oppose the ones labeled "conservative".
Now you're getting it.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2011/10/26 23:04:42
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Liberal indicates one supports expanding civil liberties, while conservative indicates the opposite, wishing to restrict civil liberties.
-- Liberals typically advocate abortion rights, removal of the death penalty, allowing homosexual marriage, separation of church and state, rehabilitation as opposed to punishment, etc. On the extreme end, liberals tend towards anarchism or similar ideas.
-- Conservatives typically advocate "pro-life" stances, death penalties, banning homosexual marriage, harsher illegal imigration laws, punishment as opposed to rehabilitation, etc. On the extreme end, conservatives tend towards autocracy or similar ideas.
I like this thread. And I agree with the previous comparisons. I have an issue with these though.
Your definition of liberal sounds more like the traditional liberal, not the current liberal hiding under the "progressive" umbrella.
Your definitions for right-wingers contradict themselves. How can one be at worst both for anarchy AND restrictive civil liberties?
As for what Liberals advocate - how can one person be for both the right to kill an unborn baby, but against the death penalty for the worst element of society? And at worst, Liberals tend towards more government - which means autocracy. (An example I heard recently - a man rapes a woman, impregnating her. Liberals want her to be able to abort the baby, but the rapist can't be executed for his heinous crime.) Liberals push for separation of church and state to do away with religion. (that phrase comes from a personal letter from T. Jefferson, not the constitution.)
Conservatives advocate for life, personal responsibility, free markets, accountability, religion, and at an extreme anarchism.
Regards,
Umm, there is one issue I have with this. In nearly all cases (aside from late term abortions which I do agree are a bit grey in terms of morality), it is not an "unborn baby", but simply two gametes that have joined, and at the most, developed a few more cells. Sperm cells and egg cells will die in the body eventually anyway. Your argument states that a fully developed human being, with their own thoughts and actions, is the same as a few sex cells. As for the death penalty, my thoughts on the matter are more or less neutral.
I wouldn't say that liberals want to do away with religion(though I am nonreligious myself). I know several extremely liberal people who are also very religious. And the separation of church and state is a GOOD thing, as history has shown over and over again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:Pirate Party? Do they serve dark rum? Me likes me some rum arrr!
Flying Spaghetti Monster party. Beer and strippers for everyone! (on a pirate ship of course)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/26 23:08:33
May the the blessings of His Grace the Emperor tumble down upon you like a golden fog. (Only a VERY select few will get this reference. And it's not from 40k. )
2011/10/26 23:44:21
Subject: Re:Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Rachel Maddow on the GOP's latest conspiracy theory. Republicans are trying to rally their base by painting health care reform as a way to advance assisted suicide and to literally kill old people. It would be bad enough if this were only coming from fringe groups or right wing web sites, but as Rachel notes, it's coming straight from these politicians' mouths.
The Republicans continue to prove that Bill Maher was right about them with this kind of talk.
Maher: This is because we don't have a left and a right party in this country any more. We have a center right party, and a crazy party. And over the last thirty odd years, Democrats have moved to the right, and the right has moved into a mental hospital.
Bill Maher: The Left Moved to the Center; The Right Moved to a Mental Hospital!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/26 23:48:00
"I hate movies where the men wear shorter skirts than the women." -- Mystery Science Theater 3000
"Elements of the past and the future combining to create something not quite as good as either." -- The Mighty Boosh
Check out Cinematic Titanic, the new movie riffing project from Joel Hodgson and the original cast of MST3K.
See my latest eBay auctions at this link.
"We are building a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude. You have our gratitude!" - Kentucky Fried Movie
2011/10/27 00:04:26
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2011/10/27 00:23:53
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
You are using RACHEL MADDOW as a legitimate source? Even if she's right I would find it from a different source.
Why yes, regardless of whether you like her or not she hasn't lost a battle yet when it comes to facts. Unlike the Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck types of this world, she uses facts to support her position while they fabricate nonsense to support theirs. Like her or not, she's no liar and her research is carefully done. But it's all about "beliefs" and facts don't matter for the other side, so of course she's vilified. Honesty is not a virtue from the opposition, only winning. It's why when a Republican is indicted for a crime Fox News puts a big "D" next to their name when they report the story (I've seen that one at least twice), they'll make up any crazy thing to win. Death Panels was the lie of the year a couple years ago (see http://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/whoppers-of-2009/).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/27 00:30:27
"I hate movies where the men wear shorter skirts than the women." -- Mystery Science Theater 3000
"Elements of the past and the future combining to create something not quite as good as either." -- The Mighty Boosh
Check out Cinematic Titanic, the new movie riffing project from Joel Hodgson and the original cast of MST3K.
See my latest eBay auctions at this link.
"We are building a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude. You have our gratitude!" - Kentucky Fried Movie
2011/10/27 03:09:26
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Why yes, regardless of whether you like him/her or not The Pundit I Happen to Agree With hasn't lost a battle yet when it comes to facts. Unlike the Pundit I Happen to Disagree With and Another Pundit I Happen to Disagree With types of this world, The Pundit I Happen to Agree With uses facts to support his/her position while they fabricate nonsense to support theirs.
I decided to make a handy template for the next time this subject comes up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/27 03:10:27
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
2011/10/27 03:53:05
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
I mean, realistically, the pundits should be treated like any other source. You listen to them, check out what they say, and then decide if you believe what was said.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2011/10/27 03:58:20
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
If we think critically about what the people that we go to to have our own views repeated back to us say we might have to actually consider that another viewpoint could have some validity, dogma.
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
2011/10/27 04:03:34
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
"I hate movies where the men wear shorter skirts than the women." -- Mystery Science Theater 3000
"Elements of the past and the future combining to create something not quite as good as either." -- The Mighty Boosh
Check out Cinematic Titanic, the new movie riffing project from Joel Hodgson and the original cast of MST3K.
See my latest eBay auctions at this link.
"We are building a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude. You have our gratitude!" - Kentucky Fried Movie
2011/10/27 05:39:40
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
You are using RACHEL MADDOW as a legitimate source? Even if she's right I would find it from a different source.
Why yes, regardless of whether you like her or not she hasn't lost a battle yet when it comes to facts. Unlike the Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck types of this world, she uses facts to support her position while they fabricate nonsense to support theirs. Like her or not, she's no liar and her research is carefully done. But it's all about "beliefs" and facts don't matter for the other side, so of course she's vilified. Honesty is not a virtue from the opposition, only winning. It's why when a Republican is indicted for a crime Fox News puts a big "D" next to their name when they report the story (I've seen that one at least twice), they'll make up any crazy thing to win. Death Panels was the lie of the year a couple years ago (see http://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/whoppers-of-2009/).
I love that you used factcheck while holding up Maddow as a paragon of journalistic integrity. Her creative editing talents and bold faced lies rival Sean Hannity.
It’s not true that Gov. Scott Walker’s tax cuts are the cause of Wisconsin’s current budget deficit — a false claim widely spread by MSNBC‘s Rachel Maddow and repeated in numerous e-mails to us since we wrote about the state’s budget problems earlier this week. In fact, the state’s nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau estimates the tax cuts won’t add a penny to the current year’s $137 million deficit.
Maddow's criticism in Thursday's show used artful editing and told an incomplete story. At issue is whether we checked the right factual claim. We examined her statement that Wisconsin "is on track to have a budget surplus this year." But she maintains that in the same segment, she made clear that she knew the state had a shortfall...
It’s pretty reckless to make such a claim on national television when a few minutes with Google would prove it false.
It gets worse. Maddow seems to have known the claim was false when she said it
Monster Rain wrote:
Why yes, regardless of whether you like him/her or not The Pundit I Happen to Agree With hasn't lost a battle yet when it comes to facts. Unlike the Pundit I Happen to Disagree With and Another Pundit I Happen to Disagree With types of this world, The Pundit I Happen to Agree With uses facts to support his/her position while Pundit I Happen to Disagree With fabricate nonsense to support theirs.
I decided to make a handy template for the next time this subject comes up.
+1 (I also modified it slightly...you missed one)
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2011/10/27 06:36:23
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
AustonT wrote:
I love that you used factcheck while holding up Maddow as a paragon of journalistic integrity.
I didn't realize that's what citing someone meant, maybe I should notify all the people I've cited in disagreement that I was really holding them up as "..paragons of journalistic integrity."
Strangely enough, one person can say stupid, or manipulative things, and insightful thing while remaining the same person.
AustonT wrote:
+1 (I also modified it slightly...you missed one)
Well done, you missed the point again.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/27 06:37:13
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2011/10/27 07:01:31
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Rachel Maddow on the GOP's latest conspiracy theory. Republicans are trying to rally their base by painting health care reform as a way to advance assisted suicide and to literally kill old people. It would be bad enough if this were only coming from fringe groups or right wing web sites, but as Rachel notes, it's coming straight from these politicians' mouths.
The Republicans continue to prove that Bill Maher was right about them with this kind of talk.
Maher: This is because we don't have a left and a right party in this country any more. We have a center right party, and a crazy party. And over the last thirty odd years, Democrats have moved to the right, and the right has moved into a mental hospital.
Bill Maher: The Left Moved to the Center; The Right Moved to a Mental Hospital!
Stop with the Maher already. Its like watching explosive diarhea. I may have to counterspam with you might be a redneck bits.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2011/10/27 11:44:10
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Yeah seriously, stop spamming with tangential-at-best videos... you post the same boring, pointless content in three separate threads over and over again without really contributing to the threads...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/27 11:44:33
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/27 12:19:08
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Melissia wrote:Right, America isn't a nation of immigrants, we're actually all of us descended from Native Americans. Oh wait.
This is an intellectually lazy comment constantly thrown into the mix by people that want as many illegal aliens to invade the U.S. as possible, because more than likely they will join unions and vote for democrats.
Using this logic, it can be said that every nation is a nation of immigrants, since our ancestors originated in NE Africa and spread across the globe. If it means everything, it means nothing.
The U.S. was a nation of immigrants, but that hasn't been true for about a hundred years. Now it's perfectly right and reasonable to limit the number of foreigners that come here. And insist that they do it legally.
Regards,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sebster wrote:
Phanatik wrote:And at worst, Liberals tend towards more government - which means autocracy.
No, it doesn't. Autocracy is a word with a specific meaning, and it's one you need to learn if you're going to try and talk about politics.
It would make sense to say liberalism at its worst would mean authoritarianism.
I appreciate your need to follow me around trying to help me through the day with the hard stuff, like definitions. But really, don't bother.
An autocracy is a form of government in which one person is the supreme power within the state.
Autocracy and totalitarianism are related concepts. Autocracy is defined by one individual having unlimited legislative and executive power, while totalitarianism extends to regulating every aspect of public and private life. Totalitarianism does not imply a single ruler, but extends to include absolute rule by any faction or class of elites who recognize no limit to their authority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocracy All of these types of government reside on the extreme left. An extreme right position would tend towards little or no government, or anarchy.
Liberals do tend towards more government. And liberalism is the gateway drug to the extreme left. It might help you to notice that I said "at worst..."
Regards,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/27 13:02:20
"Stop worrying about it and just get naked." - Mrs. Phanatik
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." -Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Frazzled - "When the Great Wienie comes, you will have a favored place among his Chosen. "
MachineSpirit - "Quick Reply has been temporarily disabled due to a recent warning you received."
2011/11/06 17:52:46
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
I find very interesting to read this topic on political theory confronted with the reality of US political scene.
Way for a foreigner to learn and compare with the same discussion here, in France :]
2011/11/06 18:43:30
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
DickBandit wrote:These labels are just like the labels teens give themselves.
They're pointless. Does anybody truly represent their party? No.
To Me hes got a point. You can lean more to one side or the other. Like me I'm for federal government Handling the implementation of the constitution through out America and American Interest through out the world. While the States Handle there governance to the best way practical for them with out interfering with the constitution. I believe that we need a stricter legal system to deter would be criminals. and on abortions legal only in certain cases of rape,high chance of miss carriage or chance of killing the mother at birth,but otherwise up to the state to decide. While on the welfare and other government hand outs. strict measures of interviews and monthly check ups to deem it necessary for them to live to quot Ben Franklin" the best way to eliminate poverty sis to make the impoverish uncomfortable in there poverty".
So to conclude I have ideals that lean on both side but farther to the right than left
p.s.
i love peoples opinions on all mater of subjects so if you want too discuss with me where you feel i might be disinclined don't worry about me getting all trolly on you I would enjoy the conversation.
your plasma weapon may be used as an explosive device in case of emergency
Welcome to the internet, and specifically a gaming forum.
If your choice of game is not made in a blood oath that can only be broken by a quest and vow made with the most overwrought dramatics, then you aren't doing it right. -curran12
2011/11/07 04:28:23
Subject: Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Phanatik wrote:I appreciate your need to follow me around trying to help me through the day with the hard stuff, like definitions. But really, don't bother.
An autocracy is a form of government in which one person is the supreme power within the state.
Autocracy and totalitarianism are related concepts. Autocracy is defined by one individual having unlimited legislative and executive power, while totalitarianism extends to regulating every aspect of public and private life. Totalitarianism does not imply a single ruler, but extends to include absolute rule by any faction or class of elites who recognize no limit to their authority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocracy All of these types of government reside on the extreme left. An extreme right position would tend towards little or no government, or anarchy.
Liberals do tend towards more government. And liberalism is the gateway drug to the extreme left. It might help you to notice that I said "at worst..."
Ah, so the problem isn't that you don't know what words mean, it's that you don't care how politics works.
Your claim that left wing politics increasingly leads to one person is non-sensical. That tendency isn't inherent to either side of politics, has occurred multiple times in both right and left wing governments, and is a product of the weakness of democratic institutions, not the policy set of a left or right wing government.
On the other hand, the word I suggested you use, authoritarianism, makes sense. It would involve the state assuming greater and greater influence over the lives of citizens, and control of that power falling into the hands of a relatively small number of people. It's a possible end step for years of unchecked leftwing politics.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2011/11/07 04:43:46
Subject: Re:Right Wing vs Left Wing and Liberal vs Conservative
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Maybe you hang out with immature women. Maybe you're attracted to immature women because you think they'll let you shpadoink them. 
)
