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Albatross wrote:We have private healthcare here, too...

It's well in the minority though isn't it? The NHS provides the majority of healthcare for citizens in the UK? Or am I projecting English systems over all of the UK again?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Albatross wrote:We have private healthcare here, too...

It's well in the minority though isn't it? The NHS provides the majority of healthcare for citizens in the UK? Or am I projecting English systems over all of the UK again?

Oh, yeah, it's in the minority for sure. Most people in the country use the NHS, and most healthcare professionals in the UK work for the NHS, no question, but there are private options too. Also, General Practioners (the people you go to if you've just got a virus or infection etc.) are private entities contracted by, but not under direct employment by the state, if memory serves. It's just a common misrepresentation that a person who was dissatisfied with NHS care has no other options. Private healthcare is generally excellent here. The only thing we don't have the option to do is not pay National Insurance contributions, which go to pay for stuff like the NHS and the state pension. So even if you decide not to use the NHS, you'd still have to contribute towards it, which is fairly reasonable.

I mean, there is perhaps an argument that the portion of one's National Insurance that goes towards the NHS should be transferable to a private provider, but that's another discussion.

Frazzled wrote:Yes you're over reacting. if you need a refresher on Commie Pinko land please emigrate to North Korea.

Frazzz watch out, dear leader might have an ICBM with your name on it.

GG

Frazzled wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:I don't know exactly how the tax rules work. But form how Newspapers make it sound, rich people/companies don't pay enough tax. No idea if thats true, i'd have thought the more income you have, the more you pay. Isn't that how it works?

Ten million accountants and thousands of pages of tax code say that is not exactly correct (in the US).
Maybe on an absolute dollar basis.

You also have to separate out taxes on companies, then taxes on dividends (if any), capital gains taxes, and what counts as a deduction. DOn't forget the types of companies matter, as well as where the cash flows came from, where the cash is at etc. etc. fun fun fun.

Thats why the flat taxers are the Don Quixotes of the tax world. I drink to them.

Strangely enough we've just stumbled on the real monster - tax law and permitted deductions. Its not that Apple or GE is bad, its what they are able to do legally that is...less good.

Flat tax wouldn't fix anything. You have to go after tax deductions and dodges. A lot of cruise lines pay 0 taxes because they claim their base of operations to be in another country. The current tax is supposed to be 35% and it's what is most commonly cited, but major companies rarely pay more than 20%, often around 15%. It brings us from one of the highest corporate taxes, to one of the lower. The US is a haven for businesses.

Surtur wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:I don't know exactly how the tax rules work. But form how Newspapers make it sound, rich people/companies don't pay enough tax. No idea if thats true, i'd have thought the more income you have, the more you pay. Isn't that how it works?

Ten million accountants and thousands of pages of tax code say that is not exactly correct (in the US).
Maybe on an absolute dollar basis.

You also have to separate out taxes on companies, then taxes on dividends (if any), capital gains taxes, and what counts as a deduction. DOn't forget the types of companies matter, as well as where the cash flows came from, where the cash is at etc. etc. fun fun fun.

Thats why the flat taxers are the Don Quixotes of the tax world. I drink to them.

Strangely enough we've just stumbled on the real monster - tax law and permitted deductions. Its not that Apple or GE is bad, its what they are able to do legally that is...less good.

Flat tax wouldn't fix anything. You have to go after tax deductions and dodges. A lot of cruise lines pay 0 taxes because they claim their base of operations to be in another country. The current tax is supposed to be 35% and it's what is most commonly cited, but major companies rarely pay more than 20%, often around 15%. It brings us from one of the highest corporate taxes, to one of the lower. The US is a haven for businesses.

You can't solve the debt issues by taxing businesses more anyway, realistically the tax burden on american citizens needs to be increased from middle class on upwards for the bottom line to be realistically impacted. You can shuffle business taxes around, but generally you can't increase them enough to solve everything without causing more problems than it's worth. It's more palatable to suggest we tax the rich and corporations more (and we should), but it's not a silver bullet and it can't fix this gak alone, we're gonna have to up pretty much everything if we want to handle this. That or we reform healthcare. Conservatives won't go for a government system though, so broad tax increases are the only realistic solution.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Every practicing medical professional in the UK works for the British government. I do not consider the state to be a capitalistic stakeholder in the equation since fundamentally it is beholden to public scrutiny rather than market forces.

Its so awesome how you can be so wrong, so frequently. Hugs and kisses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_England


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Albatross wrote:We have private healthcare here, too...

Now here's a side question Alby. Do you feel the acces to private care by those who can afford it, is negative to the proles? Aka is it a system of grade A care for the wealthy and the standard substandard care for the masses. Would it be better to have no private system?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

generalgrog wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Yes you're over reacting. if you need a refresher on Commie Pinko land please emigrate to North Korea.

Frazzz watch out, dear leader might have an ICBM with your name on it.

GG

Wiener Command has anticipated this eventuality.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Surtur wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:I don't know exactly how the tax rules work. But form how Newspapers make it sound, rich people/companies don't pay enough tax. No idea if thats true, i'd have thought the more income you have, the more you pay. Isn't that how it works?

Ten million accountants and thousands of pages of tax code say that is not exactly correct (in the US).
Maybe on an absolute dollar basis.

You also have to separate out taxes on companies, then taxes on dividends (if any), capital gains taxes, and what counts as a deduction. DOn't forget the types of companies matter, as well as where the cash flows came from, where the cash is at etc. etc. fun fun fun.

Thats why the flat taxers are the Don Quixotes of the tax world. I drink to them.

Strangely enough we've just stumbled on the real monster - tax law and permitted deductions. Its not that Apple or GE is bad, its what they are able to do legally that is...less good.

Flat tax wouldn't fix anything. You have to go after tax deductions and dodges. A lot of cruise lines pay 0 taxes because they claim their base of operations to be in another country. The current tax is supposed to be 35% and it's what is most commonly cited, but major companies rarely pay more than 20%, often around 15%. It brings us from one of the highest corporate taxes, to one of the lower. The US is a haven for businesses.

You're right. A flat tax statement alone is only a component. A flat tax on revenues for corporations is a different bird, etc. etc.

It requires will. It requires revolution.

Aye Shuma, its a really small percentage of people go private here.

I mean, I would pay for private, but im forced to pay for the NHS already, so.. I just thought feth it.

I also add, that I am a physical powerhouse and haven't been to see a doctor for twenty years.. so, I guess I don't know either way.

I also don't support universal healthcare as I think it removes the incentive to take care of your health and I believe that's why the country is full of fat, drunk, chain smoking chavs who eat nothing but microwave pizza.

But that's another thread altogether.

Maybe Apple can help out the nice workers over at Foxconn with all this new found moolah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

Its so awesome how you can be so wrong, so frequently. Hugs and kisses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_England

Hi, you're late to the conversation.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/445580.page#4204344

There you go, please read this thread. We've covered that a vocal extreme minority of people use private care in the UK and that some medical professionals are subcontracted by the government which I guess is one step of kevin bacon away from actually working for them. So sure. If you want to be your old obtuse self then yeah, they have a private healthcare system that in no way resembles ours. Pat yourself on the back for inventing a way to be right that matters in no way to anyone.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote: Aye Shuma, its a really small percentage of people go private here.

I mean, I would pay for private, but im forced to pay for the NHS already, so.. I just thought feth it.

I also add, that I am a physical powerhouse and haven't been to see a doctor for twenty years.. so, I guess I don't know either way.

I also don't support universal healthcare as I think it removes the incentive to take care of your health and I believe that's why the country is full of fat, drunk, chain smoking chavs who eat nothing but microwave pizza.

But that's another thread altogether.

We don't have universal healthcare and are fatter and less healthy than all of you.

ShumaGorath wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Aye Shuma, its a really small percentage of people go private here.

I mean, I would pay for private, but im forced to pay for the NHS already, so.. I just thought feth it.

I also add, that I am a physical powerhouse and haven't been to see a doctor for twenty years.. so, I guess I don't know either way.

I also don't support universal healthcare as I think it removes the incentive to take care of your health and I believe that's why the country is full of fat, drunk, chain smoking chavs who eat nothing but microwave pizza.

But that's another thread altogether.

We don't have universal healthcare and are fatter and less healthy than all of you.

Hey two wrongs don't make a right!

Maybe its cos you guys have gak in your food thats illegal over here? Or lack of education? Or just worse social security that makes people eat nothing but gak. I've never seen a fat arse like a fat American arse.. our obese people weigh in at about 25 stone, but we go for a walk in LA and you see people who are unbelievably fat, so fat they need mobility scooters and get their shorts off a circus elephant.

My missus swears its due to the difference in the stuff we eat. I think that there is a sugar equivalent of nicotine or something in the cookies you sell in the States.

Seriously, I haven't been to the docs for years cos I look after myself, If I went on the piss for ten weeks after Iraq or something, I think "feth me, I bet my blood pressure is up, I best eat salads and go running for a few months" but what incentive is there for fat doleys in the UK not to eat pizza all day if they get all their meds for free? They just think "feth it, ill get ten pizzas, as long as ive got money for booze im alright" I think the "gak I wont be able to afford any fags" method would be a good incentive for people to eat Tuna and get their ample frames onto the Stairmaster!

mattyrm wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Aye Shuma, its a really small percentage of people go private here.

I mean, I would pay for private, but im forced to pay for the NHS already, so.. I just thought feth it.

I also add, that I am a physical powerhouse and haven't been to see a doctor for twenty years.. so, I guess I don't know either way.

I also don't support universal healthcare as I think it removes the incentive to take care of your health and I believe that's why the country is full of fat, drunk, chain smoking chavs who eat nothing but microwave pizza.

But that's another thread altogether.

We don't have universal healthcare and are fatter and less healthy than all of you.

Hey two wrongs don't make a right!

Maybe its cos you guys have gak in your food thats illegal over here? Or lack of education? Or just worse social security that makes people eat nothing but gak. I've never seen a fat arse like a fat American arse.. our obese people weigh in at about 25 stone, but we go for a walk in LA and you see people who are unbelievably fat, so fat they need mobility scooters and get their shorts off a circus elephant.

My missus swears its due to the difference in the stuff we eat. I think that there is a sugar equivalent of nicotine or something in the cookies you sell in the States.

Seriously, I haven't been to the docs for years cos I look after myself, If I went on the piss for ten weeks after Iraq or something, I think "feth me, I bet my blood pressure is up, I best eat salads and go running for a few months" but what incentive is there for fat doleys in the UK not to eat pizza all day if they get all their meds for free? They just think "feth it, ill get ten pizzas, as long as ive got money for booze im alright" I think the "gak I wont be able to afford any fags" method would be a good incentive for people to eat Tuna and get their ample frames onto the Stairmaster!

It's a cultural thing, we do excess better than anyone and somehow believe we're adult enough to handle the decision making processes in our health system. Our healthcare system is just along for the fat-scooter ride while millions of people exploit it for trillians of dollars.

How are people stupid enough to buy the iPad 3? There's no fundamental difference from the iPad2, except for the fact that it'll burn out your retinas faster if you use it late at night.

Hi, you're late to the conversation.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/445580.page#4204344

There you go, please read this thread. We've covered that a vocal extreme minority of people use private care in the UK and that some medical professionals are subcontracted by the government which I guess is one step of kevin bacon away from actually working for them. So sure. If you want to be your old obtuse self then yeah, they have a private healthcare system that in no way resembles ours. Pat yourself on the back for inventing a way to be right that matters in no way to anyone.

Awesome to see you trying to insert another topic so you don't have to admit you were wrong.

Frazzled wrote:

Hi, you're late to the conversation.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/445580.page#4204344

There you go, please read this thread. We've covered that a vocal extreme minority of people use private care in the UK and that some medical professionals are subcontracted by the government which I guess is one step of kevin bacon away from actually working for them. So sure. If you want to be your old obtuse self then yeah, they have a private healthcare system that in no way resembles ours. Pat yourself on the back for inventing a way to be right that matters in no way to anyone.

Awesome to see you trying to insert another topic so you don't have to admit you were wrong.

I don't think you clicked the link. Or you did and are better at humor than I once believed.

Frazzled wrote:

Albatross wrote:We have private healthcare here, too...

Now here's a side question Alby. Do you feel the acces to private care by those who can afford it, is negative to the proles? Aka is it a system of grade A care for the wealthy and the standard substandard care for the masses. Would it be better to have no private system?

Nope. I think we have the balance just about right for the time being, but there's definitely room for massive improvement. There should be a state option for people who want/need it (like me!), and there should be affordable options for people who don't. I'd like to see us gradually transition towards a system whereby delivery of services is provided pretty much by specialist private entities (apart from basic healthcare infrastructure, such as the Ambulance service) but paid for by national insurance, so that everyone has cradle-to-grave healthcare coverage, which everyone in a financial position to do so pays into, without the state providing the services directly. It just seems unwieldy and problematic, like it belongs to a bygone era. Surely it would be better to choose how to spend your national insurance - marketising the provision of state healthcare could really work if handled correctly. You'd have a budget based on your national insurance contributions, and you'd allocate it to providers accordingly, with the ability to top it up at your discretion, should you desire a higher standard of, say... dentistry.



Anyway, why do you have me down as some sort of commie? I'm a bloody card-carrying (seriously, I get it out in the pub and show it to people - bitches love me) member of the Tory party!

He kinda discussed it with Alby already Frazz. Its infantile to try and argue with someone because they kinda said something but didn't.

He said "Its a large minority use it isn't it?" and was correct. Its a small point anyway, who cares if he wasn't aware of it initially? It seems kinda elementary school to badger people out to say "I was unaware of that fact"

gak, were all wrong sometimes.

Well, except me obviously. Especially when I'm talking about grossly unfair and inappropriate responses to Islam.


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Albatross wrote:

Anyway, why do you have me down as some sort of commie? I'm a bloody card-carrying (seriously, I get it out in the pub and show it to people - bitches love me) member of the Tory party!

He does and they do.. He looks all man when he slams it down on the table and back handers a miner.

What's all this 'Alby' business? It's 'Albo' or nothing.



Failing that, I WILL accept 'O, Great One!'

I only call people that who can best me in a fight, if you can forge the rest of your band, Frazzled, Shuma and Samus into a single entity and miraculously manage it Ill start calling you it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
feth it you can add my grandad as well if your short the numbers.

Albatross wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Albatross wrote:We have private healthcare here, too...

Now here's a side question Alby. Do you feel the acces to private care by those who can afford it, is negative to the proles? Aka is it a system of grade A care for the wealthy and the standard substandard care for the masses. Would it be better to have no private system?

Nope. I think we have the balance just about right for the time being, but there's definitely room for massive improvement. There should be a state option for people who want/need it (like me!), and there should be affordable options for people who don't. I'd like to see us gradually transition towards a system whereby delivery of services is provided pretty much by specialist private entities (apart from basic healthcare infrastructure, such as the Ambulance service) but paid for by national insurance, so that everyone has cradle-to-grave healthcare coverage, which everyone in a financial position to do so pays into, without the state providing the services directly. It just seems unwieldy and problematic, like it belongs to a bygone era. Surely it would be better to choose how to spend your national insurance - marketising the provision of state healthcare could really work if handled correctly. You'd have a budget based on your national insurance contributions, and you'd allocate it to providers accordingly, with the ability to top it up at your discretion, should you desire a higher standard of, say... dentistry.

Interesting. It sounds like what you'd like to see developed is basically the Canadian system. They have a single payer but private service providers generally. Most Canadians like it vs. disliking it and of course there are the usual horror stories which every system seems to have.

Anyway, why do you have me down as some sort of commie? I'm a bloody card-carrying (seriously, I get it out in the pub and show it to people - bitches love me) member of the Tory party!

I didn't say you were a commie pinko (in this thread ). It was a real question. I have a theory that if you're going to go government, everyone should have to go government, and not an effectively two tiered system.



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mattyrm wrote: I only call people that who can best me in a fight, if you can forge the rest of your band, Frazzled, Shuma and Samus into a single entity and miraculously manage it Ill start calling you it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
feth it you can add my grandad as well if your short the numbers.

Son, I don't need others. I already have millions.

For We are Legion. We are many.

Frazzled wrote:
Interesting. It sounds like what you'd like to see developed is basically the Canadian system. They have a single payer but private service providers generally. Most Canadians like it vs. disliking it and of course there are the usual horror stories which every system seems to have.

I cant be fethed with a google, but surely their system is pretty much the same as ours?

mattyrm wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Interesting. It sounds like what you'd like to see developed is basically the Canadian system. They have a single payer but private service providers generally. Most Canadians like it vs. disliking it and of course there are the usual horror stories which every system seems to have.

I cant be fethed with a google, but surely their system is pretty much the same as ours?

I know the CD system much more, but I think the UK system is much more direct government no? Canada is basically government payer, private services (I think) Actual Hortons cultists could help out right now...