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Manchu wrote:Let me try to put this in order:

Manchu wrote:I have read Codex: Tau Empire pretty carefully and I am positive that what you're saying is merely an inference.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:At least there is something to infer. To go the opposite way you'd need something that points in that direction too.

Manchu wrote:If some Tau living in the Empire under the Ethereals express sympathy with Farsight then we have some evidence that Tau are not biochemically brain-washed into obedience.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Expressing sympathy is not the same as defecting. The only Tau not following the orders of the Etherals are the ones with no Etherals around. In fact, iirc what caused Farsight to go rogue was the death of the Etheral assigned to him.

We don't need an outright defection. Mind control would render sympathy with Farsight's views impossible because it's, you know, mind control.

You're confusing my position with someone elses. I don't think The Etherals have mind control powers like "psychic domination" or something like that. They can't just shoot brainwaves into other Tau. It seems a lot more subtle than that. I think pheromones get mentioned a lot because it's the closest term we have but it's something so alien that there is no human word or concept to it.
They seem to have an organizing or soothing effect on the Tau. In no way are the Tau mindless drones like the Tyranid but The Etherals do have the ability to have them all work together for a greater....purpose.

I am incline to agree with Manchu. If they were mind controlled no Tau other then those in Farsight's command would even have the ability to agree with the Ethereals. Many did until Shadowsun gave her empire wide address.

"with many warriors openly proclaiming their support for the renegade Commander Farsight. With O'Shovah's breakaway fRom the Tau empire, his deeds have, despite the best attempts of the Ethereals, caused a schism amongst the Fire Warriors of the Tau." page 46 Tau Codex

"As the new campaigns were unveiled, so too was the
warrior that Aun'Va decreed would spearheaded the
war effort, a warrior who knew that to follow Farsight's example could only lead to the Mont'au, the time when the Tau race threatened to extinguish itself in a barbaric civil war." page 46 Tau Codex

That is conclusive proof the Aun maintain control through manipulation, Firewarriors choose to follow, and must be talked into it by fellow Fio caste members.


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Half the empire supported Farsight until Shadowsun destroyed his statue front of the Mont'yr battle dome. Page 46 Tau Codex

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They seem to have an organizing or soothing effect on the Tau.

There is no more evidence for this than there is for the idea that the Ethereals' philosophy is simply extremely appealing to the other Tau where the word "appealing" is, as you would put it, "the closest term we have but it's something so alien that there is no human word or concept to it."

FR33Kandy wrote:I am incline to agree with Manchu. If they were mind controlled no Tau other then those in Farsight's command would even have the ability to agree with the Ethereals. Many did until Shadowsun gave her empire wide address.

"with many warriors openly proclaiming their support for the renegade Commander Farsight. With O'Shovah's breakaway fRom the Tau empire, his deeds have, despite the best attempts of the Ethereals, caused a schism amongst the Fire Warriors of the Tau." page 46 Tau Codex

"As the new campaigns were unveiled, so too was the
warrior that Aun'Va decreed would spearheaded the
war effort, a warrior who knew that to follow Farsight's example could only lead to the Mont'au, the time when the Tau race threatened to extinguish itself in a barbaric civil war." page 46 Tau Codex

That is conclusive proof the Aun maintain control through manipulation, Firewarriors choose to follow, and must be talked into it by fellow Fio caste members.


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Half the empire supported Farsight until Shadowsun destroyed his statue front of the Mont'yr battle dome. Page 46 Tau Codex

I see it the other way. Once again all Tau in Etheral territory ended siding with The Etherals. If we had one incident of a Tau directly disobeying an Etheral face to face then bingo. However we don't even have a single occurence of Tau on Tau violence since the Etherals appeared! Everything just went awesomely the minute they showed up.

Tau standing right in front of Ethereals supported Farsight until Shadowsun took action....

FR33Kandy wrote:Tau standing right in front of Ethereals supported Farsight until Shadowsun took action....

Only in the loosest sense of the words "support" and "right in front of". They didn't actually support Farsight in any real way. One problem that may come to a head soon in the Empire is that The Etherals are stretched thin. That's what made the Farsight desertion possible. They can't be everywhere.

Or they don't need to be ... because there is no pheremone ... and Tau are a free-thinking people who share almost all of their values.

Manchu wrote:Or they don't need to be ... because there is no pheremone ... and Tau are a free-thinking people who share almost all of their values.

Yes they are. Tau have free will. Joe Tau Six Pack goes to work, he chooses whether he wants a soup or sandwich for lunch, punch out of his nine-to-fiver at oval chair making factory goes home and decides whether he wants to watch The Greater Good Today news program or some sitcom about the hilarious hijinks of the water caste. When an important decision or edict is laid down by The Etherals he will also ALWAYS agree with it. They're just always right....all the time.

What evidence is there Ethereals are spread thin? Judging by the video game and models, there is an Ethereal on every Orca, every Manta, and every other ship. each ship carries several Mantas and Orcas so we can draw the conclusion there are dozens on every damn ship the fire caste use... How do you imply the Firewarriors are to get away from them? I would like page numbers and quotes to support this insane inference or your argument is invalid.

FR33Kandy wrote:What evidence is there Ethereals are spread thin? Judging by the video game and models, there is there is an Ethereal on every Orca, every Manta, and every other ship. each ship carries several Mantas and Orcas so we can draw the conclusion there are dozens on every damn ship the fire caste use... How do you imply the Firewarriors are to get away from them? I would like page numbers and quotes to support this insane inference or your argument is invalid.

Or they're not. Doesn't actually affect my argument one way or the other. The point is there was none with Farsight. It's just the Tau are expanding like crazy lately so it seems hard to put an Etheral in every village and town on the border worlds.

Birth rate is exponential regardless of the species...

FR33Kandy wrote:Birth rate is exponential regardless of the species...

Ya, well maybe every frontier town does have an Etheral. Maybe all mayors are automatically Etherals. That would explain why there is no dissention or separatism anywhere.

Etherals could reproduce 1:1. Or not at all. I'm not aware of their reproductive mechanisms.


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Would explain the big deal when one dies.

Okay so let me summarize your argument.

The Fio caste can not control themselves in the presence of the Aun.

There are groups of Aun on every ship and Firewarriors are always close to them.

Firewarriors across the empire once supported Farsight's insurrection to the point of almost causing civil war.

But as mentioned they are always around them, and can't choose to disagree with them... WTF sir?




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Assuming they are the first race I have heard of that reproduce 1:1 anywhere in the universe. What evidence do you have for this? the burden of proof falls to you here. Speculation is not an argument.

I think I like that idea. Not based on anything mind you, but limited number of etherals would mean the mon'tau would become, not inevitable, but a greater threat of actually occurring again.

FR33Kandy wrote:Okay so let me summarize your argument.

The Fio caste can not control themselves in the presence of the Aun.

There are groups of Aun on every ship and Firewarriors are always close to them.

Firewarriors across the empire once supported Farsight's insurrection to the point of almost causing civil war.

But as mentioned they are always around them, and can't choose to disagree with them... WTF sir?

Yes, that's right. Once again, they all did side with The Etherals. Tau can grumble but note how none of them actually went against the Etherals when it came down to it.

And claiming any knowledge to the reproductive capacities of etherals is also speculation, as there is no fluff on that matter I'm aware of. Enlighten me if you've got any, but don't claim to be right without any support either.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:punch out of his nine-to-fiver at oval chair making factory

Whatever our formal disagreement, that is indeed a wonderfully funny image.

I have no evidence other than the fact that no life currently known has such a birth rate as the population would die out so fast they would measure but a blip on the time line. Think about it. 1:1 birth rate would have them down to mean scores by now less than 100 remaining seeing as there could not have been more than thousands on Tau to start with. No lifeform could reproduce like that and hope to perpetuate its species, which mind you is the ultimate goal of life.

Also they did not ally to the Ethereals but Shadowsun, and being on the verge of civil war is not grumbling...

CpatTom wrote:Etherals could reproduce 1:1. Or not at all. I'm not aware of their reproductive mechanisms.


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Would explain the big deal when one dies.

The Tau reproductive system is nearly identical to mankind.

Start with 5000 etherals, and thats more than plenty for their span of existence. That's losing less than one a year without replacement. Certainly attainable given the defensive nature the tau take.

I'm not arguing about the tau species as a whole, they certainly have to reproduce faster than that given shorter life spans and rapid expansion, but the etherals, that number is conjecture.

Also, little fallacy of induction there? 1:1 has never been observed so it can't happen? That would invalidate your argument, in the logical sense of course.


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DeffDred wrote:

The Tau reproductive system is nearly identical to mankind.

Tau porn the source on this? Haha.

I always liked the idea of little blue tube babies, selected based on genetics and accomplishments and junk.

Clearly you are not a student of logic.

Lets apply that argument to something similar

No human has ever been observed levitating with their mind. Therefore it is illogical to assume people can not levitate with their minds.

I would accept the theory if you had evidence as i would accept telekenisis given evidence. But as you have none it is impractical to assume it possible.

5000 Ethereals, dozens on every ship, thousands of ships... Why is this logical?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction
There you go. Thats your, I've never observed it, so its not possible fallacy.

It is not logical to assume people can levitate with their minds, because there is no proof. There is evidence to say that people cannot levitate, as people have fallen to their deaths, which would suggest they would have levitated if they had the ability to do so.

So, I offer the possibility that the Tau Etheral Caste is in fact of a limited number. Given there is no evidence one way or the other, I will offer theories until I can present proof, instead of presenting my theories as proof. (which by the way, is also begging the question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question)

One on every ship? or dozens? Don't know much about the Kor'vatta. Orca's are one, but don't know how many of those the Tau have floating around.

Inflate the number of Etherals to fit the number of ships, they could still be reproducing 1:1, cause without the biological methods that produced them, there is no reason to assume they came about the same way as all the other species around. No reasons to assume they haven't otherwise either.

No evidence, no conclusion, just assumptions and inferences.

Orcas and Mantas each carry a single ethereal,

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_AERONAUTICA.html

According to this book they are the workforce of the Tau army. Each Emissary class ship features scores of these vessels.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Battlefleet-Gothic/TAU-EMISSARY-CLASS-STARSHIP.html

The Emissary starship is also described as becoming a common site in the empire...

And my argument is not that it is impossible that the 1:1 ratio exist however it is that it has no evidence. According to the famous tea pot argument it is something we must remain agnostic about. And if it is indeed something we must remain agnostic about than it can not be the basis for your pheromone theory.

your arguments are built on a house of cards.

So, whats that? Scores? Specific. Who's making unfalsifiable claims again?

And you have no evidence as to how the Etheral's actually reproduce, so you cannot make a claim that they do in fact reproduce one way without making a claim that is, wait for it, unfalsifiable.

I offered a hypothesis as to how the Etheral's could reproduce, without assuming that my hypothesis was true because "thats how everybody else does it".

Is it beyond reason that the Etheral's are limited in number and reproductive capacity, and this is why their loss is so psychologically damaging to the rest of the Tau? I don't think so, and it actually offers a counter point to the "pheremone" business.

Also haven't made any attempt to connect the pheromone theory to anything in all of this. Just to clarify that point.

What I've been saying is, that until either of us have proof, little etheral babies could pop out either way. Or any number of other ways for that matter.

So much easier just to call people stupid. Burden of proof is on he who makes a claim. Ie, if you make a claim such as 1:1 reproduction you must prove your claim. A claim for which there is no evidence. Standard reproductive processes have evidence as it exists everywhere. If you make a claim it is your responsibility to defend it. It is not my duty to poke whole in it.

unfalsifiable? Read the book it will tell you the amount on each in detail. I'm sure you can rapidshare it. I used scores as a general word for more than dozens. More than dozens of ships means more than dozens of Ethereals. Sorry I do not know the exact amount I read the book some time ago.

And yes, guessing there are a limited number, an assumption not supported by fluff, is a stretch. What if Ethereal are like priests? Or simply heroes? If I watched the death of my hero or holy priest I too would lose my heart in battle... Again something we must remain agnostic about.

But what we have is, no evidence, intact anti-evidence, for the pheromone theory. No evidence for limited numbers of Ethereals, quite the opposite. And plentiful evidence for Tau following the Aun out of free will, and simply hating when their beloved leaders die.


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Occam's Razor man, Occam's Razor. The simplest answer is always assumed to be the correct answer unless you have evidence otherwise.

"Standard reproductive process": in the universe with Nids and Orks. Right.

I offer a possible alternative, recognizing I don't have proof, cause there isn't any either way.

You ask for me to defend a claim, but are incapable of defending your own, but, because it works that way for everything else, it has to work that way for Etherals.

I'm not gonna steal a book to make a point on a forum. There is no definitive number of Etheral given in the fluff. Just, "they got some on some ships". The Tau are by definition "limited by number", unless 6th edition saw the 4th sphere expansion.

Occam's: "urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions".

Etheral Reproduction
1. Reproduce 1:1<. one assumption: Etherals like everyone else.
2, Reproduce 1:1. one assumption: Not like everyone else, a fact supported by the fact that they didnt "evolve", they just kinda showed up one day not very long ago.

Or we could wait to get the next codex, and see if we could actually make an informed decision on the subject, with actual evidence.

And stop trying forcing my argument into this pheromone box. I have made no arguments for it or against it. A limited number of Etherals fits the argument "against" the pheremone theory, which I feel you are arguing against.

Who said they didn't evolve? sure they just showed up, but so did the vedic people in 6000 bc, so did white people in America... And you keep saying I'm making more assumptions?


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Orks and Nids also reproduce more than 1:1...

1:1 in fashions that haven't ever been possible before.

3 ed codex: Doesnt that have a pic of an Etheral decked out in his pimp robe and with his pimp staff arriving to sticks and rock tau? That I could be misremembering, but I suppose thats one of the things that never meshed for me. When they arrived they looked exactly like they do at the "present". Which suggests something different.

Englishmen dress relatively the same way as they did when they came in contact with the stick and rock native Americans. Live in pretty much the same houses too.

But you have a point that is an unimaginatively large lack of cultural development. I will say much of their empire doesn't rreally make sense when compared to other better written sci fi. Kroot wear no clothes, bear choppy weapons, and have no land vehicles but have space ships? Ethereals lead one of the most powerful and advanced armies into battle but wear robes and carry symbols of office into battle? A lot of it doesn't mesh. But then 40k has a lot of weird tech issues. I mean imperial guard wear 1950's era combat gear, and their weapons look like they are from ww2. I get that they are supposed to be all advanced and stuff, but it all just looks old. Eh 40k is 40k, there has to be some reason we like it.


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Also hundreds if not thousands of species do reproduce via spores released upon their death. (orks) and many more species reproduce in complex queen worker relationships similar to the Nids.