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rigeld2 wrote:
Except that the Hard to Hit rule specifies that the shot must be resolved as a snapshot - tnot that the vehicle must fire as a snapshot.

See how it doesn't matter what the vehicle does? Ignore the vehicle, it's not in the equation.

Yeah, and shots "resolved as a snap shot" are notable in that they cause the model firing the shots to be "counted as being [BS] 1 for the purpose of those shots"

That's all they do, they count the models BS as a different number to whats on it's profile, which has no bearing on Seeker Missiles since they just use the provided BS of 5 to resolve, they never refer to the model's BS.

A bit off topic but I was told that marklight made everything skyfire when shooting at a flyer. Was I lied to?

Nothing in the Codex allows Markerlights to do that, I can't say regarding Forgeworld but it seems unlikely.

I was told it was FAq'd

Then check the FAQ.... there is no such entry in the FAQ, that i've been able to find.

So I read through the entire thread and was like AUUUUGGGHHH! I can't believe you guys spent this much time talking about this. THREE PAGES!? Wow bros, that was special.
So this whole pile of dog was talked about in a thread I had about the possibility of using markerlight hits to increase the value of Snap Shot Ballistic skill, which doesnt work by the by. But does have the explanation in essence. So its like this...

Tau Player has two Railgun Hammerheads with a Seeker missile each, and a Pathfinder Team. Necron Opponent has Night Scythe. Turn Two(irrelevant). Tau Player is Active Player.

Movement Phase: Pathfinder team moves four of its eight members to get all team members in LOS to Night Scythe. Moves one Hammerhead to LOS position against Night Scythe. Second Hammerhead is 'Stunned' so can't move but still has LOS to Night Scythe.

Shooting Phase:
Pathfinders fire all Marker lights at Night Scythe. Checks for Ballistic Skill. Four models who remained stationary, and are firing Heavy weapons, have BS 3, trigger 'Hard to Hit' rule which triggers Snap Shot rule, set BS value to 1 (BS 3, Set value to 1=BS 1). Four models moved and are firing Heavy weapons, triggers Snap Shot rule. Firing at Flyer, trigger 'Hard to Hit' rule, which triggers Snap Shot rule again. Active Player must choose order of set modifiers, following 'Multiple Modifiers' rule, and 'Exceptions' rule. Tau player let's them resolve in the order they triggered for simplicity. First for moving and shooting heavy weapon, then for 'Hard to Hit'. Looks at end result (BS 3, Set value to 1 for Heavy weapon while moving, Set value to 1 for 'Hard to Hit'=BS 1) Rolls all dice together as they are all the same weapon and now the same BS. Gets and ! Two marker light hits are set next to the Night Scythe.

First Hammerhead fires Railgun at Night Scythe. Ignores Heavy weapon rule as per 'Relentless', Triggers 'Hard to Hit', which triggers Snap Shot. Checks for BS (BS 3, +1 for Targeting Array, Set value to 1=BS 1). Miraculously hits and penetrates the flyer. Necron player fails cover saves for 'Jink'. Shot stuns it, simultaneously taking down its Quantum Shielding. Player expends one Markerlight hit to fire Seeker Missile at Night Scythe as well. Triggers 'Markerlight-Seeker missile', Triggers 'Hard to hit' which triggers Snap shot. Player must choose order of set modifiers, following 'Multiple Modifiers' rule, and 'Exceptions' rule again. This time, the Player states they happen in the opposite order of triggering and checks for BS this way: (BS 3, +1 for Targeting array, Set value to 1 for 'Hard to Hit', THEN Set value to 5 for 'Markerlight-Seeker missile'=BS 5). Player rolls a to hit anyway and moves on.

Second Hammerhead fires Railgun at Night Scythe. Ignores Heavy weapon rule as per 'Relentless', Checks and triggers 'Stunned' state which triggers Snap Shot on all its controlled weapons, Triggers 'Hard to Hit' which triggers Snap shot again. Active Player must choose order of set modifiers, following 'Multiple Modifiers' rule, and 'Exceptions' rule. Tau player let's them resolve in the order they triggered for simplicity again. Checks for BS (BS 3, +1 for Targeting Array, Set value to 1 for 'Stunned', Set value to 1 for 'Hard to Hit'=BS 1). Rolls a miss. Player expends last Markerlight hit to fire Seeker Missile at Night Scythe as well. Triggers 'Markerlight-Seeker missile', checks and triggers 'Stunned' state which triggers Snap shot, Triggers 'Hard to hit' which triggers Snap shot. Player must choose order of set modifiers, following 'Multiple Modifiers' rule, and 'Exceptions' rule again. This time, the Player has THREE SET MODIFIERS. Arranges them as follows while he checks for BS: (BS 3, +1 for Targeting array, Set value to 1 for 'Hard to Hit', Set value to 1 for 'Stunned', THEN Set value to 5 for 'Markerlight-Seeker missile'=BS 5). Rolls a to hit, and a to penetrate armor, and a on the damage chart. Necron player fails cover saves for 'Jink'. Shrapnel from the Flyer rains down on the HappyJew who is probably going to try and chew this one apart too. For such a happy guy he gets so angry. Makes me sad

Note the Marker light rules state that the vehicle is allowed to fire the missile, so yes stunned/shaken rules still check-trigger-resolve but in the end are always ignored due to multiple modifiers and exceptions rules. There may be flaws in the example above. I'm almost positive there is one somewhere.

Edited to correct mistakes later pointed out (v1.3)
My cheering section:

Cant take any kind of saves against marker lights..

Really? Not even Cover? Technically the Markerlight doesnt ignore them...*searching codex*

No wounds means no saves.

Guess it does just say whenever you hit with it huh? AWESOME!

KnuckleWolf wrote:
Really? Not even Cover? Technically the Markerlight doesnt ignore them...*searching codex*

You only save against wounds or penetrating / glancing hits. So if the effect does not cause those no save is possible.

rigeld2 wrote:
Except that the Hard to Hit rule specifies that the shot must be resolved as a snapshot - tnot that the vehicle must fire as a snapshot.

See how it doesn't matter what the vehicle does? Ignore the vehicle, it's not in the equation.

Except that snap shots only apply to the firing model (pg13), so non-model firing entities can't be affected by snap shots.

If we completely ignore the vehicle as part of the equation, then the FAQ makes no sense (or at least, it answers a question that doesn't need to be answered).

Or, the logical alternative (which seems congruent to both the standard rules for seeker missiles and the FAQ) is that the ballistic skill of a seeker missile is a set-value of 5, which applies simultaneously to the set-value of snap shots and thus overrides the snap shots.

For the love of my back hair people. ITS A SET VALUE!

IF IT DOESNT HAVE A PLUS SIGN
A MINUS SIGN
A MULTIPLY SIGN
OR EVEN A DIVISION SIGN
ITS A SET VALUE!

ITS A NUMBER! FIVE! A NATURAL, WHOLE, REAL PRIME INTEGER.

*Ahem* Sorry about that. Found the caps lock button. Yeah that's my excuse. To be clear. The ability does not say "subtract ten from the Ballistic skill, then add five". If it did, It would shoot the skill to zero as that's the lowest it could go according to the rule for modifiers, then back up to five, THEN you could set it with the snap shot rule back down to one. But as it just hands you a value, therefore it's a set modifier. Further. The tank IS THE FIRING MODEL. The ability does not say set out a new Seeker missile model, check line of sight, then use 'X' stat line and abilities to resolve. The vehicle carrying it IS ALLOWED TO Fire it, super-ceding the normal limitation that it can't. There is no new model to fire it or even separate sub model to the tank. Confusing I KNOW. But read it critically and youll see.

Snap shot is also a set value. It sets shot at bs1 unless you have skyfire or another special rule that says it specifically overrides snap shot. Not that it sets something to bs5 mind you, but that it overrides snap shot personally.

Got to go to work now. Check in at lunch or tonight


Automatically Appended Next Post:
YES! you got it. Snap shot is 'Set' and Seeker BS is 'Set', Check multiple modifiers as per page 2 BRB, then Exceptions pg 9 BRB and youll be home free Vindicare-Obsession

Ah but it is set differently. Because the shots are resolved at bs 1 it dosent matter what yout "set" bs is because they are "resolved at" bs 1. I mis-typed above. Its a simple equation of words that isint really solid but its what GW seems to go off of far too much.

Hard to hit makes any shot resolve as a Snap Shot. Snap Shots are a Set Modifier value, in this case, to one.

The Tau FaQ makes Seeker Missiles BS5 a Set Modifier Value, in this case, five.

Page seven's Specific Vs Advanced tells us what to do in this situation.

The stat can not be checked twice, or set twice differently, or checked then resolved at a different value. Essentially every time you add in a value(+, -, x, divide, or set), you go back and rework the equation. Because the game can only check a models ballistic skill ONCE, the instant you roll. Which is the 'resolution'. Even if your statement was true that it checks 'twice', as the active player, as per the 'Exceptions' Rule, I could still choose to have the first value set using the Snap shot rule, then use your imaginary 'second stat check' (because that is what your saying) to apply the BS 5. As the 'Exceptions' rule makes room for differences in the timing of rules. Congratulations man. You just found another way to do the exact same thing. I love you guys. So dang smart. And no I'm not being sarcastic. Not many could do what you just did.

And Xzerios is probably tired of saying it as is everyone else. The FAQ which I will put right HERE. Has this answered on the third of four pages. Pay attention when it uses the examples of "Shaken and Stunned (heres the part you need to read, ready?) FOR EXAMPLE". Meaning that it means anytime you would be reduced to snap shot firing. Even if we are all completely wrong about how it happens. The FAQ tells us what to do anyway.

If you want to do the 'multiple stat checks', you can. But be ready every time anyone moves any Rail Rifle or man fired Markerlight, fire at any flyer, or overwatch shoot. Because every time, they will try and spam their markerlights as much as possible and almost never fire snapshots again at BS 1. Because you will have allowed them to do what I posted in my thread HERE. It doesnt take too long to read. Although poor Xzerios had to write down the same thing twice poor guy. Sorry bro! Honest, I got it the first time y'all pointed it out. Peace and Thank you! LOL

Edit: And just to finalize the loose thread. The 'Skyfire' rule is weird in that while technically it does still trigger the set modifier for 'Hard to Hit', it immediately tells you to cancel it out and continue the equation without the modifier.

KnuckleWolf wrote:YES! you got it. Snap shot is 'Set' and Seeker BS is 'Set', Check multiple modifiers as per page 2 BRB, then Exceptions pg 9 BRB and youll be home free Vindicare-Obsession

Seeker's aren't a set modifier, they don't set the statistic of any model to any value, they are simply resolved using a number other than the BS listed on the profile of the model equipped with them, the idea that they are a Set modifier simply doesn't stand up under scrutiny, they don't change a model's stat or even treat a model as having a different stat.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Ah but it is set differently. Because the shots are resolved at bs 1 it dosent matter what yout "set" bs is because they are "resolved at" bs 1. I mis-typed above. Its a simple equation of words that isint really solid but its what GW seems to go off of far too much.

Also, Snap Shots aren't "resolved at" anything, they count the model firing as being BS 1.

Drunkenspleen, sir, you astound me, and your a cool guy too. Your statement above is false, then supported by empirical evidence that in a roundabout way *kind of* supports the correct case.

In your statement you say that when the moment of resolution occurs, there are two stats floating in the game, but only one of which will be checked for the 'To hit' roll. That can't happen. Because the game formula only looks one place for the stat, at the 'Firing Models BS'. If we followed your reasoning, the BS 5 Seeker would never be looked at, under any situation, at as it would just be a value floating around, that the game never looked at in the sequence of how to resolve an action. As we've already pointed out there is not a check ballistic skill to start the roll, then check ballistic skill to resolve the roll, at two points in the sequence. Therefore! The ballistic skill of the seeker missile MUST be assigned to a model, the one firing it, because it can't be attached to "nothing". As it does not have a modifier sign of plus, minus, multiply, or divide, it can only be considered a set modifier. Which always puts it at the end of the equation. Which due to 'Exceptions', gets rearranged by whoever is 'Active Player'.

I will be fair and use your argument as the basis for another proof of why the seeker STILL would fire at BS 5, which is simply the long version of what your post says.
I'm resolving the firing of the first hammerhead in the examples above. Spend the markerlight hit, fire the missile resolve the models BS assuming that the Seeker DOES NOT MODIFY IT. And I get this (BS3, +1 for Targeting Array, Set value to 1 for 'Hard to Hit'). I do this and the game will check it the instant I roll but before the result is seen. *Dice roll* NOW! BEYOND GODSPEED! HITEN MITSURUGI STYLE! AMAKAKERU RYU NO HRAMEKI!!! I short circuit the game and stop time using my gaming-god-granted power to divinely switch out the models Ballistic Skill, and put the seeker missiles BS5 in its place. *dice stop rolling* Look at result and resolve as normal. How did I do that? Because the 'Exceptions' rule allows for timing variance.

BOOOOOO YAA HA HA! *goes over the huge waterfall with sharp rocks at the bottom most likely.*

Your second statement is true but I thought we covered that? Maybe not. Good looking out bro-skis.

The hell did I just read? >_>

Slightly different scenario but I think it applies just the same here:

 insaniak wrote:

It's a matter of specificity.

The signum alters your BS for that shooting phase. This applies to all of your shooting.
Snapshot alters your BS specifically for snap shots. This applies only to certain shooting attacks.

The more specific rule wins. The model is BS 5 for the phase, but if it makes a snap shot, it counts as BS1 for that shot.

The real question is, can a shot made at a BS higher than 1 and still be a 'snap shot'?

According to pg 13, the definition of a snap shot is that the model firing it uses a BS of 1 to make it. "If a model is
forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then its ballistic skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots".

-Meaning, for the purpose of it being a snap shot, the model must use a BS 1 to make the shot. NOT that firing a snap shot merely causes the model's BS to be reduced to 1 (for which, the simple phrase '...then its ballistic skill is reduced to 1.' would have been sufficient). It's an important distinction! Meaning, that it is a snap shot if and only if it is fired at BS 1.

If for some reason, the model/weapon had a special rule that said it could not fire a weapon at BS 1 or be reduced to that skill, then it can't fire snap shots! Because in order to fire a snap shot, again, it needs to be fired by a model with BS 1.

If it is true that seeker missiles can only fire at BS 5, as the FAQ states, then they as well, cannot be fired as snap shots. They simply cannot fire.

(may suck for Tau, but that is neither here nor there, we are arguing what the rules say.)

Any disagreements?

The only way I can thin of not to Snap Shot with BS1 (ignoring Seeker Missiles and Signum for the moment as they are under debate), is Overwatch while under the effects of Foreboding.

Happyjew wrote:
The only way I can thin of not to Snap Shot with BS1 (ignoring Seeker Missiles and Signum for the moment as they are under debate), is Overwatch while under the effects of Foreboding.

True, however Foreboding only says you may fire Overwatch at full ballistic skill, not a snap shot. Overwatch is a kind of shooting attack. So, the power doesn't really say that it's a snap shot resolved at full ballistic skill (rather than BS 1).

If anything, the wording in the psychic power implies that all snap shots are made at BS 1, because it assumes that if you are making an overwatch and thus a snap shot, you would normally only do it at BS 1.

Whoops, I lied. Realized it at work. The last example I gave still doesn't work, I think....I'll think about it, then be back.

Also your statements about what a models skill is set at when 'Snap Shot' changes it. Would mean that it becomes the new starting value. So in the Hammerhead examples, the normal BS 3 is replaced by one, THEN Targeting array kicks in following 'Modifiers' and 'Multiple Modifiers' Would presnt the equation as (BS 1[snap shot], +1 for targeting array=BS 2). Now tell me does that make any gosh darn sense? The answer is "no" by the way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well the example of Drunkenspleens version is true according to his reasoning, but as already stated the game always checks only once and the skill is locked in after that. So can't be true. But I said that.

....Wow, I just circled my own logic....Far out man.

By the by. The whole crazy Japanese words thing was a reference to "Rurouni Kenshin", a popular anime. The "boo ya ha ha" was reference to "The Emperors New Groove", a Disney film.

KnuckleWolf wrote:
In your statement you say that when the moment of resolution occurs, there are two stats floating in the game, but only one of which will be checked for the 'To hit' roll. That can't happen. Because the game formula only looks one place for the stat, at the 'Firing Models BS'. If we followed your reasoning, the BS 5 Seeker would never be looked at, under any situation, at as it would just be a value floating around, that the game never looked at in the sequence of how to resolve an action. As we've already pointed out there is not a check ballistic skill to start the roll, then check ballistic skill to resolve the roll, at two points in the sequence. Therefore! The ballistic skill of the seeker missile MUST be assigned to a model, the one firing it, because it can't be attached to "nothing". As it does not have a modifier sign of plus, minus, multiply, or divide, it can only be considered a set modifier. Which always puts it at the end of the equation. Which due to 'Exceptions', gets rearranged by whoever is 'Active Player'.

I very much disagree with the concept that you MUST use the BS when rolling to hit simply because that is the nature of the core rules.

An example, the core rules similarly tell you that you roll Strength against Toughness when trying to wound a target, but there are a number of attacks out there (as an example we will use the Callidus Assassin's Neural Shredder) that substitute a different value in place of Toughness when rolling to wound (in our example, they are resolved against the target's Leadership value). The Neural Shredder doesn't set the target's Toughness to anything, the model maintains whatever Toughness it was prior to the shooting, you simply use Leadership instead of Toughness because that is what a special rule with greater specificity told you to do.

Similarly, when using a Seeker Missile, you don't modify a model's Ballistic Skill and then proceed to use it, you simply substitute in another value provided in another place by virtue of the fact that there is a special rule telling you specifically to use BS 5 without regard for the BS of the model.

The rest of your post isn't exactly clear to me, As far as I could tell what you are saying is that, if you assume my reasoning is correct the end result is in line with what I am saying? The only difference is the roundabout way you get there via Exceptions etc, whereas I am insisting it supercedes things regardless of timing by virtue of not actually being a modifier.

Okay, okay okay, wait, Hold up. We need to go back a get some stuff straight on some concepts. But first, yes, I was for the benefit of others, longhand writing your posts meaning into an example for demonstration. I was as you wrote, assuming that you were correct, then showing the argument in rules based logic as to why. Again, just to show the flow. As to the 'Exceptions' route, 'Exceptions' is the rule that you would have to use to make your change for both your latest example with the Neural Shredder, and our ongoing debate with Seekers. As 'Exceptions' contains the line...

BRB: Exceptions, pg 9
...Occasionally,the actions of one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular unit, or may activate some special rule or occurence. When this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the information you need to resolve it.

As we can classify the Ballistic Skill of the Seeker Missile as activation of a special rule or occurence. Then going back to the top of 'Exceptions' you find...

...Exceptions to the general turn sequence...When things are worked out as they occur rather then in any strict order. [paraphrase]

The game logic would work like this for your examples being run through the logic simultaneously:

Fair warning, this is a terrible presentation of what I'm trying to say. And surely flawed in it somewhere.

(Going off the protocols laid out on BRB pg 426-7)
---[running game logic]---
>Determine dice pools based on different strengths, AP values or special rules, or different Ballistic Skills(checks BS formula),
[STOP LOGIC, using 'Exceptions', replace specific previously set BS to exceptional BS until after resolution for Seeker Missile, go to next]
>Roll dice pool, will repeat later for each pool,
>Recall BS values previously set,
>Compare BS values to required roll to hit, Store value of hits and go to 'Roll to Wound' step.
>Roll 'x' dice where x is equal to value of hits per earlier successful rolls to hit, repeat step for each pool,
>Recall Strength stat for weapon
[STOP LOGIC, using 'Exceptions', redirect comparison to check against targets LD instead of Toughness. go to next]
>Compare to target score, now set to check against LD.
---[game logic continues]---

SO! Yes if you run it that way it checks. I should point out, functionally identical to the order you would add it as a 'Set Modifier' Which means too that I can follow exceptions and in the same spot your version changes the BS to 5 on the seeker, add Markerlight hits to the set BS to increase it. Which from everything I'm told is wrong. Is there a judge anywhere like the ones we have at Magic:TG tournaments? This is just getting obnoxious. Xzerios? Any comment?

Oops, my bad, I was honing in specifically on the "controlling player chooses order for simultaneous events" part of the "Exceptions" rule and forgetting that it contains other elements.

The reason markerlights couldn't affect the Seeker Shots is because they allow a firing unit to modify their BS while the shots are resolved, the Seeker's aren't themselves a unit, you could only modify the BS of the tank armed with them, and as we have established the Seekers don't care what the tank's BS is.

Yeah that's where I'm not sold on it. Because if it works like above, my argument/interpretation is that as the player I can 'Activate Special Rule' of Marker in the at any point be fore I roll. So why can't I wait for it to check BS, then activate for +1 in the same gap as Seeker makes changes. Which according to how I've already said it happens from even before we take your version, cant work as it "goes back to the calculation and reworks." I really want to see a judge/FAQ/rulebook/codex explanation for this! Arrgh...