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2012/09/29 20:47:14
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
Sure, if you want to win the war the best defense is to exterminate your enemy with a preemptive nuclear attack. However, the primary argument against Israel's actions is not that they are not a good way of winning a war*, but that they are ethically horrible. If it was any country besides Israel doing that we'd condemn them as monsters and probably start planning to invade and overthrow their government, but of course we couldn't possibly do that to a valued ally**.
*Though you could also argue that in the end Israel's actions cause them more harm than good by ensuring that their enemies have an endless supply of willing martyrs.
**Even if the only reason Israel is an ally is because they're needed for the final war that will bring on the apocalypse.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2012/09/29 20:47:39
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
Sure, if you want to win the war the best defense is to exterminate your enemy with a preemptive nuclear attack. However, the primary argument against Israel's actions is not that they are not a good way of winning a war*, but that they are ethically horrible. If it was any country besides Israel doing that we'd condemn them as monsters and probably start planning to invade and overthrow their government, but of course we couldn't possibly do that to a valued ally**.
*Though you could also argue that in the end Israel's actions cause them more harm than good by ensuring that their enemies have an endless supply of willing martyrs.
**Even if the only reason Israel is an ally is because they're needed for the final war that will bring on the apocalypse.
I again stand on the actions of Israel's enemies.
From day 1 the Palastinians and other neighboring countries have made it clear they will stand for nothing less then the total annhilation of Israel.
Israel was perfectly fine with what they had and then their jerkish neighbors decided they didn't like them being there.
As a result, the party at fault must be the Palastinians and other Muslims in the region. Doesn't make either party "right" but it does say who is to blame for the situation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/29 20:50:45
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
From day 1 the Palastinians and other neighboring countries have made it clear they will stand for nothing less then the total annhilation of Israel.
.
While from day 1 the 'Jews' have also made it clear that they will not accept anything less than full control of Palestine. Neither side can gets it way here.
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
2012/09/29 21:08:51
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
As you may or depending on the state of the public schools where you live, may not know the first Europeans to permanently settle in what is now called the United States were people fleeing religious persecution, people whose ways of worshiping God were different from those around them and suffered for it.
When they came to America the various churches massed in various colonies and based upon their own level of tolerance for other religions, enacted laws restricting the practice of other religions until finally with the adoption of the Bill of Rights in the New constitution (1787) the principle of freedom of religion was firmly established as a national policy.
We’ve had a few bumps as Catholics in Pennsylvania and Joseph Smith could tell you but by and large we’ve done an excellent job allowing people of any and all religions to practice as they please.
Islam has been around for quite a while, as a Roman Catholic I see several things good about it, particularly its devotion to regular prayer which is the basis of any devotion to God.
As an American: I freely welcome you to practice Islam in America. Worship God as you see fit.
As an American: I freely welcome you to make public your practice, hold festivals, have parades, share cultural events, let your culture be part of ours as so many other cultures have before you.
As an American: I freely welcome you to use all the freedoms promised to protect religious belief under the laws of the United States and of the individual states to make sure your right to worship is respected.
As an American: I freely welcome you to make your best case for Islam, explain your religion, proselytize, I invite you to make the finest argument you can that Islam is the best way to get closest to God and to live a better life that you can, both in public and in private.
As an American: I freely welcome you to make the case against my religion, any other religion or no religion at all. If you say Islam is truth explain why other religions are false or have it wrong in print, in media and on the net.
As an American: I freely welcome you to attempt to convert people even a Catholic like me. Convert the entire United States if you can
BUT
As an American and as a Catholic in America In return I Demand the following:
As an American: I say you MUST NOT prevent others from Worshiping God as they see fit
As an American: I say you MUST NOT restrict the public practice of other religions, festivals or any other celebration or expression of any other religion.
As an American: I say you MUST NOT violate the laws of the United States nor the individual States where you live in the practice of your religion.
As an American: I say you MUST NOT prevent others from making the best case they can, in public or in private, for their religions or religious denominations, nor prevent others from making their case to follow no religion at all.
As an American: I say you MUST NOT prevent others from making the case against Islam, for explaining the flaws in your belief and declaring that you have it wrong in print, in media or on the net.
As an American: I say you MUST NOT prevent others from converting followers of Islam nor must you harm those who do. Islam must be able to stand on its own two feet
You will note that I do not request these things, I do not entreat of you these things as a courtesy, I do not say you SHOULD NOT do these things. I say you MUST NOT do these things.
This is part of the American compact, America is not just a place where free commerce can get you anywhere economically, it’s a place where everyone competes in the battlefield of ideas and competes freely.
If you do otherwise:
If you choose to practice and excuse things such as Honor Killing
If you attempt to pass laws to restrict critique of Islam.
If you attempt to silence the voices that would argue against you by physical action or vandalism
If you commit violence against those who would preach another creed even in towns where you are the majority,
If you attempt to slay those who would choose to leave Islam.
If actively and material support those who would overthrow this nation and it’s laws or target America & Americans for slaughter.
Then I say you have broken the compact of America, and I will fight you in word or deed to my dying breath.
The choice is entirely yours.
My own Church the Catholic church predates your religion by hundreds of years. In nearly two dozen centuries it has had ups and downs. It has had success and scandal and it has been loved or as we see lately in America despised, attacked and ridiculed by those in power and media.
This doesn’t worry me. The message of Christ and the Church is a true message, it has faced obstacles for centuries and still endures and flourish. It will continue to do so.
I submit that if you truly believe Islam is worth the paper it’s printed on or the Arabic script it’s written in, then it can stand on its own in the marketplace of ideas regardless of it is despised, attacked or ridiculed by those in power or those in media without the need of violence, threat or intimidation to back it up and if it can not, if you can not allow it do to so, that tells me you have neither faith in the truth of your own religion nor in “Allah” himself?
We can either be friendly rivals both honestly arguing for he best for ourselves, our families, our neighbors and our country, or we can be enemies.
Your call.
/thread
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2012/09/29 21:09:56
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
Grey Templar wrote: From day 1 the Palastinians and other neighboring countries have made it clear they will stand for nothing less then the total annhilation of Israel.
Well, then if Israel can't exist without doing what it does now, too bad for Israel, it just lost its right to exist. I won't shed a single tear over their absence.
Israel was perfectly fine with what they had and then their jerkish neighbors decided they didn't like them being there.
And what does that have to do with what is happening now?
As a result, the party at fault must be the Palastinians and other Muslims in the region. Doesn't make either party "right" but it does say who is to blame for the situation.
Since when is "but they started it" an acceptable excuse for adults? Israel's neighbors started a war a long time ago, and now Israel continues the war. Their actions have gone WAY beyond self defense and into aggression of their own. Self defense stopped being an excuse a long time ago, and now Israel bears the largest share of guilt for the current situation.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2012/09/29 21:11:59
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
From day 1 the Palastinians and other neighboring countries have made it clear they will stand for nothing less then the total annhilation of Israel.
.
While from day 1 the 'Jews' have also made it clear that they will not accept anything less than full control of Palestine. Neither side can gets it way here.
Given that the Palastinians havn't done a very good job of managing what they do have, it seems that it would be better for Israel to be managing the area.
The Palastinians would be far better off if they lived as residents of Israel then if they governed themselves. They simply don't have the resources to run a functioning political entity. Why not live as residents of one that does function and has a far better standard of living.
A Jewish state that allows Palastinians and Jews to live side by side is the compromise that would work, assuming the Palastinian extremists can actually tolerate the Jews.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
whembly wrote: Peregrine... both sides are at fault here...
Both sides are at fault, but Israel has a much higher share of fault. They have done everything they can to keep the Palestinians in a constant state of poverty, and are guilty of horribly disproportionate violence as punishment, illegally occupying territory, etc. If anyone else did what they did we'd call it war crimes and call for sanctions/invasion/etc.
I've been trying to read up more on this, but the biggest sticking point seems to be the Palistinian "Right of Return".
Yeah, how dare they want to reclaim what Israel took from them...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote: The Palastinians would be far better off if they lived as residents of Israel then if they governed themselves. They simply don't have the resources to run a functioning political entity. Why not live as residents of one that does function and has a far better standard of living.
Or Israel could end their blockade and other policies intended to create a state of constant poverty and starve them into submission. It's a lot easier to get the resources to run a functioning political entity when you don't have someone standing in your way of doing so.
A Jewish state that allows Palastinians and Jews to live side by side is the compromise that would work, assuming the Palastinian extremists can actually tolerate the Jews.
Or how about a better compromise: Israel gets out of the land they took by force, and we cut off all military aid until they do it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/29 21:18:48
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2012/09/29 21:19:12
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Israel took that land in a war with their neighbors, land that the British Commonwealth had given the state of Israel.
Israel clearly has ownership, but by right of conquest and by right of emancipation.
Israel is a political entity, so the people living on the land could easily have continued living there, just under new management. But No, they began a cycle of violence instead.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
A Jewish state that allows Palastinians and Jews to live side by side is the compromise that would work, assuming the Palastinian extremists can actually tolerate the Jews.
Why does it have to be a Jewish state? There will never be a lasting peaceful settlement unless both sides make significant compromises and any future integrated state should be resolutely secular.
Israel is one of the main reasons why the Palestinians lack the rescources to suceed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
whembly wrote: Was there a "Palistinian State" during the time when Israel was created?
No, It was part of the Ottoman Empire until the end of the great war and then Britain ruled Palestine until just after WWII.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/29 21:28:26
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
2012/09/29 21:30:10
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Why does that matter?
The palastinians have land that is "theirs" currently. the west bank and Gaza strip.
Have they created a political entity and begun progress towards an improved civilization?
No, what they do is constantly aggrivate Israel with terrorist activites. Israel responds with military force to protect their people.
The Palastinians arn't even trying to make peace or get along. The negotiations are just methods of buying time so their fighters can build another round of rockets and bombs to attack Israel with.
If I was in charge of Israel, I would have finally decided enough was enough and forcibly taken back the land and clear it of anyone that opposed us. those who truly wanted coexistance would be allowed to remain with their homes, but any sort of resistance in the form of Terrorist activities would be met with harsh consequences. Remove all the weapons the Palastinians have access to, seal the borders so no weapons can come in, etc...
After a period of time the Palastinians would be absorbed into the state of Israel and we would be done with all this crap.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
From day 1 the Palastinians and other neighboring countries have made it clear they will stand for nothing less then the total annhilation of Israel.
.
While from day 1 the 'Jews' have also made it clear that they will not accept anything less than full control of Palestine. Neither side can gets it way here.
Given that the Palastinians havn't done a very good job of managing what they do have, it seems that it would be better for Israel to be managing the area.
The Palastinians would be far better off if they lived as residents of Israel then if they governed themselves. They simply don't have the resources to run a functioning political entity. Why not live as residents of one that does function and has a far better standard of living.
A Jewish state that allows Palastinians and Jews to live side by side is the compromise that would work, assuming the Palastinian extremists can actually tolerate the Jews.
Or that the jews stop shooting the palestinians with attack helicopters and bulldozing their houses long enough for an agreement to be signed. That's not happening though.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/29 21:41:22
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
From day 1 the Palastinians and other neighboring countries have made it clear they will stand for nothing less then the total annhilation of Israel.
.
While from day 1 the 'Jews' have also made it clear that they will not accept anything less than full control of Palestine. Neither side can gets it way here.
Given that the Palastinians havn't done a very good job of managing what they do have, it seems that it would be better for Israel to be managing the area.
The Palastinians would be far better off if they lived as residents of Israel then if they governed themselves. They simply don't have the resources to run a functioning political entity. Why not live as residents of one that does function and has a far better standard of living.
A Jewish state that allows Palastinians and Jews to live side by side is the compromise that would work, assuming the Palastinian extremists can actually tolerate the Jews.
Or that the jews stop shooting the palestinians with attack helicopters and bulldozing their houses long enough for an agreement to be signed. That's not happening though.
Those said palastinians were shooting at the Jews first with RPGs and Mortars.
By your logic the Jews should just sit around and take those incoming attacks lying down, waiting for the very people firing them to come and have an agreement.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
The palastinians have land that is "theirs" currently. the west bank and Gaza strip.
Have they created a political entity and begun progress towards an improved civilization?
No, what they do is constantly aggrivate Israel with terrorist activites. Israel responds with military force to protect their people.
The Palastinians arn't even trying to make peace or get along. The negotiations are just methods of buying time so their fighters can build another round of rockets and bombs to attack Israel with.
If I was in charge of Israel, I would have finally decided enough was enough and forcibly taken back the land and clear it of anyone that opposed us. those who truly wanted coexistance would be allowed to remain with their homes, but any sort of resistance in the form of Terrorist activities would be met with harsh consequences. Remove all the weapons the Palastinians have access to, seal the borders so no weapons can come in, etc...
After a period of time the Palastinians would be absorbed into the state of Israel and we would be done with all this crap.
If I were America, the EU, or the Arab league you probably wouldn't be in power a week later. Hell, if you did that and the current EU, Arab league, or America was around you wouldn't be. Genocide is frowned upon.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/29 21:42:04
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
Grey Templar wrote: Have they created a political entity and begun progress towards an improved civilization?
It's kind of hard to do that when Israel uses military force to keep them in a state of poverty. Seriously, even ignoring the massively disproportionate use of violence in retaliation just look at the list of things the Israeli blockade excludes.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2012/09/29 21:42:49
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
The palastinians have land that is "theirs" currently. the west bank and Gaza strip.
Have they created a political entity and begun progress towards an improved civilization?
No, what they do is constantly aggrivate Israel with terrorist activites. Israel responds with military force to protect their people.
The Palastinians arn't even trying to make peace or get along. The negotiations are just methods of buying time so their fighters can build another round of rockets and bombs to attack Israel with.
If I was in charge of Israel, I would have finally decided enough was enough and forcibly taken back the land and clear it of anyone that opposed us. those who truly wanted coexistance would be allowed to remain with their homes, but any sort of resistance in the form of Terrorist activities would be met with harsh consequences. Remove all the weapons the Palastinians have access to, seal the borders so no weapons can come in, etc...
After a period of time the Palastinians would be absorbed into the state of Israel and we would be done with all this crap.
If I were America, the EU, or the Arab league you probably wouldn't be in power a week later. Hell, if you did that and the current EU, Arab league, or America was around you wouldn't be. Genocide is frowned upon.
Read my quote, I never advocated Genocide.
I advocated taking out a legitimate military threat. The civilians can remain, but if you make a move or look as if you are making a move towards or with a weapon I will shoot first and ask questions later.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
From day 1 the Palastinians and other neighboring countries have made it clear they will stand for nothing less then the total annhilation of Israel. .
While from day 1 the 'Jews' have also made it clear that they will not accept anything less than full control of Palestine. Neither side can gets it way here.
Given that the Palastinians havn't done a very good job of managing what they do have, it seems that it would be better for Israel to be managing the area.
The Palastinians would be far better off if they lived as residents of Israel then if they governed themselves. They simply don't have the resources to run a functioning political entity. Why not live as residents of one that does function and has a far better standard of living.
A Jewish state that allows Palastinians and Jews to live side by side is the compromise that would work, assuming the Palastinian extremists can actually tolerate the Jews.
Or that the jews stop shooting the palestinians with attack helicopters and bulldozing their houses long enough for an agreement to be signed. That's not happening though.
Those said palastinians were shooting at the Jews first with RPGs and Mortars.
Those said Palestinians were forcibly removed from their homes so that the jewish state could be created by the west as a place to stuff jews after WW2. The jewish state was created on top of other peoples land, they didn't agree to it. It's also the holy land and a foreign christian power gave it to the jews.
The palastinians have land that is "theirs" currently. the west bank and Gaza strip.
Have they created a political entity and begun progress towards an improved civilization?
No, what they do is constantly aggrivate Israel with terrorist activites. Israel responds with military force to protect their people.
The Palastinians arn't even trying to make peace or get along. The negotiations are just methods of buying time so their fighters can build another round of rockets and bombs to attack Israel with.
If I was in charge of Israel, I would have finally decided enough was enough and forcibly taken back the land and clear it of anyone that opposed us. those who truly wanted coexistance would be allowed to remain with their homes, but any sort of resistance in the form of Terrorist activities would be met with harsh consequences. Remove all the weapons the Palastinians have access to, seal the borders so no weapons can come in, etc...
After a period of time the Palastinians would be absorbed into the state of Israel and we would be done with all this crap.
If I were America, the EU, or the Arab league you probably wouldn't be in power a week later. Hell, if you did that and the current EU, Arab league, or America was around you wouldn't be. Genocide is frowned upon.
Read my quote, I never advocated Genocide.
I advocated taking out a legitimate military threat. The civilians can remain, but if you make a move or look as if you are making a move towards or with a weapon I will shoot first and ask questions later.
You just advocated invading every home in Palestine with military force and killing anyone who refused to give up their weapon. Instead of me reading your quote, how about you read it and think about it for more than five seconds. It's insane.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/09/29 21:45:09
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/29 21:45:41
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
The Palastinians arn't even trying to make peace or get along. The negotiations are just methods of buying time so their fighters can build another round of rockets and bombs to attack Israel with.
That is true of both sides. As I keep saying there has to be deep compromises or the situation that will last for decades, if not centuries.
Its also quite hard to build, for example, a functional economy when you can't even import cement and your extremely friendly neighbour keep 'borrowing' your farmland.
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
2012/09/29 21:45:58
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
Grey Templar wrote: Have they created a political entity and begun progress towards an improved civilization?
It's kind of hard to do that when Israel uses military force to keep them in a state of poverty. Seriously, even ignoring the massively disproportionate use of violence in retaliation just look at the list of things the Israeli blockade excludes.
You might not want to bother with this anymore, from previous experience this dude doesn't like reason. He likes action and ideology.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/29 21:47:40
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well you clearly have your own Idiology too, one which says the Jews are 100% wrong and should leave.
But whatever, i'm done.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Well you clearly have your own Idiology too, one which says the Jews are 100% wrong and should leave.
But whatever, i'm done.
An ideology backed up by facts, history, objective morality, and plain old ethics with a bit of common sense. If they can't act like a civilized country and have to engage in the constant killing of civilians and theft of land to protect themselves then they don't deserve our or anyone elses protection.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/29 22:31:35
Subject: NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
Just so we're clear, this does invalidate almost any morality based arguments either of you will make for a while. The notion that might makes right to the exclusion of basic human rights is pretty extreme.
It doesn't in anyway. If you know a man has a gun and he is going to try and use it against you it is perfectly moral shoot him first. If he surrounds himself with his children and family you're still allowed to shoot him because he would also have no qualms about shooting your family, and would likely do so with extreme prejudice.
Saying that Israel must continually bomb, relocate, and bully the Palestinians or they will cease to exist strikes me as one of the big lies, and a way to perpetuate an almost eternal state of conflict.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2012/09/29 22:37:32
Subject: NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
Just so we're clear, this does invalidate almost any morality based arguments either of you will make for a while. The notion that might makes right to the exclusion of basic human rights is pretty extreme.
It doesn't in anyway. If you know a man has a gun and he is going to try and use it against you it is perfectly moral shoot him first. If he surrounds himself with his children and family you're still allowed to shoot him because he would also have no qualms about shooting your family, and would likely do so with extreme prejudice.
Ahh, so we're back to hysterical comparisons. So whose head was the gun to when Israel killed over 100 children and 500-800 civilians during the last gaza war? The one where israel lost something along the lines of five people to incidents that weren't friendly fire? The pro Israel side loves it's silly little allegorical comparisons, because without them it has no case. Flip that around and the Palestinians now have ever right to murder every Israeli they see because the Israelis have proven, time and time again, that they don't care about civilian collateral when they want a Palestinian dead. Sounds kinda silly when it's said from the other direction, doesn't it? The barest facts on the ground prove that the Israelis are in the wrong, the full facts show that they are guilty of almost every war crime we've got, from banned weapons use to civilian shields and attacking aid convoys. I'm not asking you to hate Israel or for their country to be disbanded, I just want reality injected into the conversation. Israel as a nation state doesn't act in accordance with the values of peace, civility, or human rights, and it actively manipulates U.S. foreign opinion to try and influence our elections and policies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/29 22:40:17
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/29 22:49:05
Subject: NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
If it was any country besides Israel doing that we'd condemn them as monsters and probably start planning to invade and overthrow their government, but of course we couldn't possibly do that to a valued ally**
Lolwut? Chechnya, China, Indonesia, Turkey, Iran, and half of Africa. Don't see the Americans gunning for them. Hell Chechnya isn't even on anyones radar really.
While from day 1 the 'Jews' have also made it clear that they will not accept anything less than full control of Palestine. Neither side can gets it way here.
Nope, they want it, but they weren't willing to fight for it, and prior to the creation of Israel they had obtained all of the land that was Jewish controlled through legal purchases. Seriously, the Palestinians were all happy to sell their land to the Jews, then the Jews reclaim said land from the worthless parcels that it was before and all of a sudden the Palestinians want it back, and the Arabs are going to back them up. Well they tried three times, and all three times the Jews kicked their asses, so by right of conquest alone they have control of the area that was outside the 67 borders, and by right of both occupation and defence do they hold their land. Neither of which is immoral as they paid for them, originally in cash, and later in blood.
Those said Palestinians were forcibly removed from their homes so that the jewish state could be created by the west as a place to stuff jews after WW2. The jewish state was created on top of other peoples land, they didn't agree to it. It's also the holy land and a foreign christian power gave it to the jews.
Go and read the extensive history leading up to the formation of Israel, I suggest you start in the mid 1870s, you'll see what an utter fabrication that is. Those Palestinians were never removed from their homes, they left before the war in 48 in fear of Jewish reprisals and what would happen to them if they were there when the Arabs rolled through. The Arabs who stayed in Israel for the war and who did not take part in the hostilities were allowed to stay and given citizenship. All Jewish land prior to that had been legally obtained for cash. True they expropriated a good deal of property after the war in 48 but that's totally fair. There wasn't anyone living there, and the inhabitants had sided with the enemies of Israel. It's no different then expropriating the property of enemy combatants that is held in your country.
An ideology backed up by facts, history, objective morality, and plain old ethics with a bit of common sense. If they can't act like a civilized country and have to engage in the constant killing of civilians and theft of land to protect themselves then they don't deserve our or anyone elses protection.
An ideology that is backed up by a lot of ignorance of the facts, history, and almost no common sense. Objective morality is different, but in that case it would still side with Israel.
You just advocated invading every home in Palestine with military force and killing anyone who refused to give up their weapon. Instead of me reading your quote, how about you read it and think about it for more than five seconds. It's insane.
That isn't insane, that is a perfectly rational response to a large body of people who wish to do you and your countrymen harm and do not care about the cost to themselves.
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Ahh, so we're back to hysterical comparisons. So whose head was the gun to when Israel killed over 100 children and 500-800 civilians during the last gaza war? The one where israel lost something along the lines of five people to incidents that weren't friendly fire?
The same can be said of nearly any American engagement post Vietnam. Do you find them to be as morally distasteful?
The pro Israel side loves it's silly little allegorical comparisons, because without them it has no case. Flip that around and the Palestinians now have ever right to murder every Israeli they see because the Israelis have proven, time and time again, that they don't care about civilian collateral when they want a Palestinian dead. Sounds kinda silly when it's said from the other direction, doesn't it?
Nope, in fact I perfectly agree with it. Really, I wish they would just be allowed to go at it and then we would be done with this silly argument.
The barest facts on the ground prove that the Israelis are in the wrong, the full facts show that they are guilty of almost every war crime we've got, from banned weapons use to civilian shields and attacking aid convoys. I'm not asking you to hate Israel or for their country to be disbanded, I just want reality injected into the conversation.
I am aware of such actions, are you aware that the Palestinians do the exact same things? That they would take it farther if they had the power to do so? Just because Israel is much more effective and efficient at killing than the Palestinians doesn't meant that they and only they are to blame.
Israel as a nation state doesn't act in accordance with the values of peace, civility, or human rights, and it actively manipulates U.S. foreign opinion to try and influence our elections and policies.
Neither does the vast majority of the world, your own state included. The only states that do either Scandinavian or Swiss.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/29 22:55:59
LoneLictor wrote: It's horribly, horribly racist. But they should be allowed to say it, just like we're allowed to call them out on it.
No. If we're not arguing stare decisis then we can argue on the merits.
The merits are that this is a public conveyance. I have the right to not be annoyed by some else's bs message on mass transit. Seriously what the feth is wrong with people now days.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/09/29 23:04:25
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
I advocated taking out a legitimate military threat. The civilians can remain, but if you make a move or look as if you are making a move towards or with a weapon I will shoot first and ask questions later.
Not directly, but you are doing it unintentionally.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/09/29 23:06:11
Subject: NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
Ratbarf wrote: But in retaliation not aggression. If the Arabs put down their weapons the fighting would stop, if the Israelis put down their weapons they would be killed.
True that.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/09/29 23:08:00
Subject: Re:NY MTA anti-blasphemy rule in everything but name
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