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 Pilau Rice wrote:


It isn't a contradiction though is it, if anything the Codex confirms the assumption that their Gene-seed is from the Emperor. You find me the quote now from the latest codex, where I have pulled the quotes from that pretty much confirms that the Geneseed is taken from the Emperor himself, that says it's legend please as the quotes I have given you do not say this and as far as I can tell there is no mention of it being legend as it's black and white, new Gene - seed.

Once again you are blatantly not reading what's been provided to you and are ignoring pretty much what can be determined as fact. I don't like the way Ward said that the Grey Knights have Emperor Gene-seed, or at least carries his own flesh and soul, but he did.

I read it, your own quote does not say it as fact but "Legends says" The codex makes it clear the Gk believe it, but it also makes it clear they have been told this by someone or maybe just made it up as they honestly have no clue.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
IA: Codex Astartes
placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these dangerous gene stocks should be destroyed.

Yes, I know this..but also that is what they are told. As most of codex stuff it may or may not be the whole truth.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

And you are actually incorrect in the assumption that all gene-seed comes from Terra as

index Astartes: Rites of Initiation
According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This 'tithe' has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new Chapters.

Which comes from "terra" or the golden throne ot the council, however ya want to say it. New chapters are issues geneseed they have no clue where it comes from.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

And your comment about the Emperor being too busy is incorrect as the codex, once again says.

Codex Grey Knights P6: The Grey Knights were something altogether new, the culmination of a project begun by the Emperor during the final days of the Horus Heresy

Nice words for he told flunky x to make a unit...do not bother me with details I am busy.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

We also know that the Emperor tasked Malcador to bring together certain individuals, so indirectly the Emperor was dealing with the task.

And it seems you agree, so no the Emperor had no hand in it. He told someone to handle it, he did nothing himself. Kinda like if I told you to "deal" with the low water pressure and you install new water pumps...yep I did that.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Now whose changing their mind? One minute Garro is the first Grey Knight now they don't even know where the first members came from?

Not I, they honeslty do not know where. Garro may be ( and honeslty looks like they are) the start of the GK, but they did not pass on that info. The GK go out of their way so not even themselves have a hint they are descended from traitor legions as that alone would undo them.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

I read it, your own quote does not say it as fact but "Legends says" The codex makes it clear the Gk believe it, but it also makes it clear they have been told this by someone or maybe just made it up as they honestly have no clue.

The quote you are referring to is from the Index Astartes article as mentioned, not the Codex which confirms new Geneseed. The Legend part states that the order to create the chapter came from the Emperor not the Geneseed, but that the gene-seed was specifically created for the Grey Knights.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

Yes, I know this..but also that is what they are told. As most of codex stuff it may or may not be the whole truth.

This isn't from a Codex, it's from a specific article concerning the Codex Astartes, going into its origins and its intentions. So this is not a version of events, this is what happens.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

index Astartes: Rites of Initiation
According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This 'tithe' has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new Chapters.

Which comes from "terra" or the golden throne ot the council, however ya want to say it. New chapters are issues geneseed they have no clue where it comes from.

That quote specifically says that the 5% tithe is sent to Mars, where they store Geneseed for new chapters. There are only two instances of Foundings where Gene-seed is untraceable, the 21st Cursed Founding and the 13th Dark Founding. Otherwise, Chapters origins can be traced back all the way to creation in the majority of cases. Of course there are Chapters, like the Blood Ravens, who aren't allowed to trace their origins. But the Grey Knights aren't one of these as the Gene-seed was created specifically for them.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

Nice words for he told flunky x to make a unit...do not bother me with details I am busy.

He started the Project and asked the regent of Terra, hardly some flunky, to finish it as he did, you know, have more important things to do like, keep the Astronomicon from failing and prevent hordes of chaos Daemons from penetrating the Webway breach.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

And it seems you agree, so no the Emperor had no hand in it. He told someone to handle it, he did nothing himself. Kinda like if I told you to "deal" with the low water pressure and you install new water pumps...yep I did that.

No we don't agree, much like everything else in this thread. You provide no backing for your argument. As the quote states the Emperor began the project so he did have some hand in it, more than likely creating the new gene-seed for the Grey Knights that the Codex states was created for them.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Now whose changing their mind? One minute Garro is the first Grey Knight now they don't even know where the first members came from?

Not I, they honeslty do not know where. Garro may be ( and honeslty looks like they are) the start of the GK, but they did not pass on that info. The GK go out of their way so not even themselves have a hint they are descended from traitor legions as that alone would undo them.

Which in itself is a reason why they do not have traitor gene-seed. It is even stated in the Codex that they have new gene-seed.

Also

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The HH books make it clear the group that started the Grey knights are in fact traitor marines. And I hate to tell ya ( Not really) but every single genseed is flawed, they are based upon chaos work. Each and every one is fruit from the poisoned tree that was the Primarchs and each and every one of those as well as the legions made from them are flawed in some way.

I do not think they replaced the genseed because A: there is zero point to do so and in fact it would be counter productive B: The timeline does not match, there are not "New" super dupper Emperor 2.0 Geneseeds. They are a fairy tale.

Seems to make it clear that you are back peddling. You are insinuating that a) Garro and his group are the start of the Grey Knights and this is also confirmed by b) your belief that the Grey Knights still have traitor Gene-seed.

I am not backpeddinlging man. I just simply do not think they changed geneseeds. I ignore your "proof" as it contradicts the time line. I thought I made that clear enough man. And the codex does keep saying legend. They are just repeating what they have been told. Like all codexs its told from their point of view not "fact"often enough.

We just disagree here. You see it as proof, I see it as a contradiction .

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I am not backpeddinlging man. I just simply do not think they changed geneseeds. I ignore your "proof" as it contradicts the time line. I thought I made that clear enough man. And the codex does keep saying legend. They are just repeating what they have been told. Like all codexs its told from their point of view not "fact"often enough.

We just disagree here. You see it as proof, I see it as a contradiction .

1. How does it contradict the timeline? Do we know everything to do with the Heresy yet - so every revelation so far in the heresy series has been known to us all?
2. Find me in the Codex where it says about it being Legend - not in the IA article.
3. What exactly does it contradict?

You're back peddling and now copping out, you haven't provided a shred of anything to back up what you say, just a half arsed attempt saying 'you are wrong' without any foundation.

You quoted the codex when it said legend. You did, you simply ignore it as you want to. which is fine, 40k has crap canon ya have to pick and choose. You choose to believe it, I choose to see it as a contradiction. The Big E was confined upon the throne from day 1 of the Hersey onward. He never left then throne but to assault Horus.

I am saying what I have since the start man, you are ignoring your own quotes. The GK do not infact know the truth, they have only what they have told to go on and this is what the book says.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
You quoted the codex when it said legend. You did, you simply ignore it as you want to. which is fine, 40k has crap canon ya have to pick and choose. You choose to believe it, I choose to see it as a contradiction. The Big E was confined upon the throne from day 1 of the Hersey onward. He never left then throne but to assault Horus.

I am saying what I have since the start man, you are ignoring your own quotes. The GK do not infact know the truth, they have only what they have told to go on and this is what the book says.

I thought not, I'll take this bowing out as you having no proof and the poor attempt at turning it around on me because you do not have any evidence to support anything you say is quite bad show.

Thanks though, I actually learned that the Grey Knight Gene-seed does in fact come from the Emperor (codex) and it's not just a legend (Index Astartes).

Yet your quote says otherwise man. And the timeline says otherwise, when looking at canon you look at all sources, if one does not fit, then it is a contradiction. You can disagree with that, but that is why something is called a contradiction. If ya have a quote from another book saying the fact the Emperor was not confined to the throne like every other source says, I would like to see it.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yet your quote says otherwise man. And the timeline says otherwise, when looking at canon you look at all sources, if one does not fit, then it is a contradiction. You can disagree with that, but that is why something is called a contradiction. If ya have a quote from another book saying the fact the Emperor was not confined to the throne like every other source says, I would like to see it.

Provide your source, book and page number, that says that the Emperor was confined on the Golden Throne from day 1of the Heresy.

I can think of two, right off the top of my head where the Emperor is walking about at this time. One being Blood Games and the other being The Lightning Tower, scratch that make that three, Nemesis as well.

He was stuck on the throne since ol one eye bashed The webway down and unleashed the demons. The only person other then him that could have done it ( and did it) was Malcador , which IIRC killed him.

I do not know the books you speak of, so I can not comment on them. Perhaps Its new canon , I am unsure as GW canon is crap. However, as of the HH books he was stuck on the throne. To remove him is death to Terra as only someone on the throne keeps the damaged webway closed..

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
He was stuck on the throne since ol one eye bashed The webway down and unleashed the demons. The only person other then him that could have done it ( and did it) was Malcador , which IIRC killed him.

I do not know the books you speak of, so I can not comment on them. Perhaps Its new canon , I am unsure as GW canon is crap. However, as of the HH books he was stuck on the throne. To remove him is death to Terra as only someone on the throne keeps the damaged webway closed..

You say you have read the Heresy books and have no idea what the ones I mention are

Looks like I have been wasting my time as you clearly do not have a clue.

Oh and look, another back peddle

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The Big E was confined upon the throne from day 1 of the Hersey onward. He never left then throne but to assault Horus.

I am saying what I have since the start man, you are ignoring your own quotes. The GK do not infact know the truth, they have only what they have told to go on and this is what the book says.

Looks like you are the one ignoring their own quotes.

I read the first humm 4 or 5 maybe up to 6, then I started reading other books on my list. I have not read them all nor did i say i had. And I have not back peddaled a damn word. The lighting tower if I recall was not a book, but a short story, I have not read it however. He or Malcador were the only ones to power the throne. IIR it killed Malcador holding it while he took on Horus.

So No, he did not have time to brew a new batch of genseeds from scratch nor did he freaking work that way. The whole HH came about because he refused to work that way.

Anyone that Knows my posting on here knows I hate GW handling of the setting its armatureish is the nicest you way to can put it. And yes the GK stuff is a contradiction of the setting, not the first and sadly not the last.

It really is a matter of you getting all railed up as I call BS on what looks to be a contradiction you like very much. Eh to each his own.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I read the first humm 4 or 5 maybe up to 6, then I started reading other books on my list. I have not read them all nor did i say i had. And I have not back peddaled a damn word. The lighting tower if I recall was not a book, but a short story, I have not read it however. He or Malcador were the only ones to power the throne. IIR it killed Malcador holding it while he took on Horus.

So No, he did not have time to brew a new batch of genseeds from scratch nor did he freaking work that way. The whole HH came about because he refused to work that way.

Anyone that Knows my posting on here knows I hate GW handling of the setting its armatureish is the nicest you way to can put it. And yes the GK stuff is a contradiction of the setting, not the first and sadly not the last.

It really is a matter of you getting all railed up as I call BS on what looks to be a contradiction you like very much. Eh to each his own.

I am still not sure of this contradiction that you speak of and you appear to be the one getting railed up, perhaps you should have a rest as I think you are getting yourself confused.

You say

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
However, as of the HH books he was stuck on the throne. To remove him is death to Terra as only someone on the throne keeps the damaged webway closed..

but you also say

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The Big E was confined upon the throne from day 1 of the Hersey onward. He never left then throne but to assault Horus.

You make comments as if you know what is happening yet you have not read all of the Heresy books, nor apparently the Grey Knights codex, nor their Index Astartes article. You might not like what GW and BL have published but the quotes I have provided to you are what we have and unless you have something tucked away some where you are pretty wrong on a few accounts.

But hey, each to their own right

Ya know reviews are often better then reading badly written books when one has better books to read. I keep up broadly but I found the books badly written after the first few and why waste my time on bad books?

Those two quotes of mine are not contradicting nor are they back peddling. He did not leave the throne, he was stuck there. someone had to hold the damned gate closed.

You say he did x and did Y but that is simply not fitting with his character nor holding secret Geneseeds when he would have damned well used them

. it simply does not fit. so something saying he did contradicts the rest of the setting which says he would not. Its GK legend and not fact, its what they tell themselves with no outside source backing it up.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yet your quote says otherwise man. And the timeline says otherwise, when looking at canon you look at all sources, if one does not fit, then it is a contradiction. You can disagree with that, but that is why something is called a contradiction. If ya have a quote from another book saying the fact the Emperor was not confined to the throne like every other source says, I would like to see it.

Provide your source, book and page number, that says that the Emperor was confined on the Golden Throne from day 1of the Heresy.

I can think of two, right off the top of my head where the Emperor is walking about at this time. One being Blood Games and the other being The Lightning Tower, scratch that make that three, Nemesis as well.

Just to add a little. In The Outcast Dead the big E only visited the Astropath in his dreams. Also in Deliverence Lost the Big E was only able to visit Corax in a vision. Malcador and Dorn had not seen the Emperor for sometime before Corax's arrival.

Another thing to mention is that the Emperor's gene labs were sealed up before the events in Deliverence Lost. And there the Big E says that he cannot leave the throne to unlock the labs for Corax. Then after gaining access to the labs the Raven Guard take most of the equipment with them. Which does not leave much time for Someone to create a new geneseed based on the Emperor. Aside from the work that Babu Dhakal is doing in The Outcast Dead.

The idea of the geneseed coming from the Emperor does not have to 100% correct. All that needs to exist is for the Emperor to use part of himself to make the Primarch/astartes and as long as those genes are used. Then that statement remains true.

burnaboy wrote:
So i have been thinking, we all know that the Thunder warriors were physically superior to the Custodes and Astartes in size and strength

Actually, we don't know if the average TW is physically superior to the average Custodes or the average Astartes.

Based on a very limited sample (two "specimens" in The Outcast Dead), it would seem that Thunder Warriors are bigger, faster, and stronger than Space Marines. If they're so much better, why not keep them? Why switch to inferior warriors?

Possible reasons: SM have more implants and are therefore more adaptable to fighting in alien environments. SM are more mentally stable and thus more obedient. SM have longer life-spans, display better teamwork and higher tactical/combat intelligence. TW make better berserkers. SM make better soldiers. Perhaps TW can mentally and/or physically deteriorate at any time (i.e. in the middle of battle). That would be a significant drawback.

Of course, another explanation is that the two TW specimens in Outcast Dead are be outliers. It stands to reason that the two surviving TW are extremely bad ass by TW standards. If that were the case, it's possible that the average TW is actually inferior to the average SM.

 b1soul wrote:

burnaboy wrote:
So i have been thinking, we all know that the Thunder warriors were physically superior to the Custodes and Astartes in size and strength

Actually, we don't know if the average TW is physically superior to the average Custodes or the average Astartes.

Based on a very limited sample (two "specimens" in The Outcast Dead), it would seem that Thunder Warriors are bigger, faster, and stronger than Space Marines. If they're so much better, why not keep them? Why switch to inferior warriors?

Possible reasons: SM have more implants and are therefore more adaptable to fighting in alien environments. SM are more mentally stable and thus more obedient. SM have longer life-spans, display better teamwork and higher tactical/combat intelligence. TW make better berserkers. SM make better soldiers. Perhaps TW can mentally and/or physically deteriorate at any time (i.e. in the middle of battle). That would be a significant drawback.

Of course, another explanation is that the two TW specimens in Outcast Dead are be outliers. It stands to reason that the two surviving TW are extremely bad ass by TW standards. If that were the case, it's possible that the average TW is actually inferior to the average SM.

In HH Betrayal, there is a story about the War Hounds being sent to clear out a compound. That appearently had some TWs in it as well. When they later find the bodies of the Thunder Warriors, they find 3-4 times their number of dead astartes around them. While not exactly average vs average it does go a long way to show that Thunder Warriors were most likely the better fighters and or just tougher.

 Stonerhino wrote:
In HH Betrayal, there is a story about the War Hounds being sent to clear out a compound. That appearently had some TWs in it as well. When they later find the bodies of the Thunder Warriors, they find 3-4 times their number of dead astartes around them. While not exactly average vs average it does go a long way to show that Thunder Warriors were most likely the better fighters and or just tougher.

If that's the case then the main disadvantage of TW is most likely instability

They appear to have short unpredictable life-spans. Moreover, they're mentally unstable (I assume they're prone to psychotic rages and have to be put down like rabid dogs). A unit of Thunder Warriors would be a pain in the ass to maintain. You never know who's going to physically deteriorate or mentally flip out (maybe both at the same time).

And the better individual fighter does not make the better soldier.

Let's be frank here, name any group of skilled, individual warriors or berserkers in history which have performed well? Dacians? Crushed by the Legions (took a while though), Spartans? Attrition against more easily replaceable armies. Samurai? Conscript armies with superior formation and cohesion. The list goes on and on.

The artwork of Space Marines likes to play up their individual "champion" nature, but in truth, such a soldier is not very effective on the large scale, and will be defeated by an anonymous, but disciplined, organized and well led blob of men with guns.

A Space Marine's true strength is their tactical flexibility and ability to perform precision warfare with absolutely lethality and effectiveness; the whole be the scalpel thing. A Thunder Warrior is a Khorne Beserker who has somehow become even angrier. They're purpose is to bludgeon the enemy to death with sheer force, and operate with dubious strategy and cohesion. Not bad to unify squabbling post-apocalyptic despots on Earth, not the best Galaxy Conquering Super Army. Note that in all the stories they appear in fighting Astartes, they tend to lose despite their individual ferocity.

Much like how Cadians keep on managing to not lose the Cadian Gate. They die a lot, but they still have a pretty good track record for coming out on top.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
...

You could probably add tactical intelligence to the list of advantages SM have over TW

 Tengri wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
...

You could probably add tactical intelligence to the list of advantages SM have over TW

I felt that was a given when I described TW as "Angrier Khorne Beserkers."

I mean, where do you go from there? Angry Marine Berserkers infused with the power of Khorne himself?

One can't get less subtle or tactically efficiency as a berserker.

Eh 40k isn't about effective, but the rule of cool. If they wanted effected power armored soldiers they would keep the helm and and not drop into melee every fight.

I think TW were always better then SM, but then the first SM from the rogue trader era if what I have been told is true were little more then humans with power armor. So many things from the yer old days of 40k are iffy.

I do think they have moved toward the idea with the HH books and newer stuff that TW were bigger and meaner, tougher and all around harder to control, keep from killing everything, going mad and more or less falling apart. That might not have always been true, but looks to be the way they are going now.

 b1soul wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
In HH Betrayal, there is a story about the War Hounds being sent to clear out a compound. That appearently had some TWs in it as well. When they later find the bodies of the Thunder Warriors, they find 3-4 times their number of dead astartes around them. While not exactly average vs average it does go a long way to show that Thunder Warriors were most likely the better fighters and or just tougher.

If that's the case then the main disadvantage of TW is most likely instability

They appear to have short unpredictable life-spans. Moreover, they're mentally unstable (I assume they're prone to psychotic rages and have to be put down like rabid dogs). A unit of Thunder Warriors would be a pain in the ass to maintain. You never know who's going to physically deteriorate or mentally flip out (maybe both at the same time).

The Thunder Warriors were only supposed to be for reclaiming Terra, perhaps the mental degradation was some form of control that the Emperor had bred into them so as to reduce any issues when the need to eliminate them would arise. They would either be dead or be nuts, which would give the Emperor a good reason to want to kill them, you couldn't have a mental Thunder Warrior running around unchecked. The Emperor seems to have created them with a genetic instability to shorten their lifespans.

I guess you would have to know what sort of frame of mind the Thunder Warriors were in at this time, apart from being insane. Was there any sense of self preservation, did they feel pain, were their systems pushed beyond their boundaries?

Bhabu and Ghota are certainly a bit unhinged, but they don't appear to be crazy ass nut jobs.

Bhabu is also the Thunder Warrior, the Lightning Bearer so I guess he is the best of the Thunder Warriors, Ghota could be a general or Captain or something perhaps?

Kind of makes you wonder how tough the Techno Barbarians that the Thunder Warriors were created to fight are

I think it's more likely the Emperor wanted to maximise the kill count he got for the resources he invested into the TW. Resources must have been limited to some extent I imagine...

I thought Thunder Warriors were inferior to Astartes and Custodes. Aren't they some kind of proto-Astartes?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I thought Thunder Warriors were inferior to Astartes and Custodes. Aren't they some kind of proto-Astartes?

Yes, they were inferior. But they were stronger physically.

The 2 can easily go together.


The Astartes are superior because they were strong, but also weren't batgak insane killers. They are level headed super soldiers that can act in an efficient way to take out the enemy. The Thunderwarriors were muscle bound monsters that were pointed in the general direction of the enemy and let loose.

I think it comes down to a basic "version" viewpoint.

Thunder Warriors are version 1.0, Astartes are version 2.0.

1.0 is the best of what was current when it was made. It'll still likely do the job in the days of 2.0, but in a way that is seen as a crude, "get you by even thought there's better method now" way.

Thunder Warriors were the early version of a technology that was later perfected, and so their flaws couldn't be ignored simply because there was no alternative to what was the best of the time. It'd be like going back to Steam-powered cars over gasoline- flaws aren't so bad, or even perceived as such, when you don't know any better.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I thought Thunder Warriors were inferior to Astartes and Custodes. Aren't they some kind of proto-Astartes?

Yes, they were inferior. But they were stronger physically.

The 2 can easily go together.

I see. They were probably big super-soldiers but didn't have the 16 additional organs that give Astartes various powers.

One has to wonder if barely leashed super soldiers had to be used, what kind of powerful foe needed that level of aggression?

I would think it reasonable that during the age of super-weapons, the common man would be extremely fearful of doing battle without the most
potent of equipment and the most involved of training programs. (Or battle at all with the raw power of those weapons!) The TW solve both issues,
simply by being the brutes that they were. Fearless-madmen who needed no real training, just some basic equipment and an opponent to bash.

If you were the Emperor, would you desire to babysit your new warriors, and thus loose valuable time and resources holding their hands or
would you rather point and release, giving yourself ample time to reinvest into new toys and plans? And this method was particularly effective from
keeping the Emperor from being held accountable for the TW's actions and allowed him to 'convince' the unruly factions to unite behind his banner
without any further effort. (It might also explain why he was inspired to create the Primarchs and why the Legions where so influenced by them).

As far as fighting goes; Warriors traditionally were fantastic one on one fighters, but lacked the discipline to continue a fight once the enemy fled the field,
or fight protracted battles. Soldiers are the sum of their parts, individually weak, but together harder than steel against both superior odds and impossible battle.
They are also capable of self-initiative, something you would never see a warrior doing without a face to bash.

Besides, with fighting the Custodes are hands down the best, if least proven of the three. They guard the freakin' big E. They have the best of both worlds (warrior and soldier) plus the best equipment and training possible. On top of that, I would imagine them some if not the most stellar individuals ever born. You wouldn't trust someone easily capable of being tainted to guard the 'god' of mankind would you?

 Bloody Adair wrote:
One has to wonder if barely leashed super soldiers had to be used, what kind of powerful foe needed that level of aggression?

At the time, Terra was overrun by juiced-up, cyborged-up bionic techno barbarians that were very bit as brutal as the Thunder Warriors.

Besides, with fighting the Custodes are hands down the best, if least proven of the three. They guard the freakin' big E. They have the best of both worlds (warrior and soldier) plus the best equipment and training possible. On top of that, I would imagine them some if not the most stellar individuals ever born. You wouldn't trust someone easily capable of being tainted to guard the 'god' of mankind would you?

Custodes are not really soldiers, and are inferior in this aspect to Space Marines.