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Martel732 wrote:
I'm just curious then; would you say for marines the annihilator configuration should be used over auto/las?

Generally. I mean, I'm running lascannon+multimelta vanquishers right now...

That said, in the case of marines it's a little bit hazier. In the case of guard, prices are low, but carrier costs are high. Giving a vet squad a lascannon only increases its cost by a little over a third, for example, and giving a russ a hull lascannon is increasing its price by only a tenth, or less.

In the case of a pred, though, you nearly TRIPLE the cost by giving it the lascannons. That said, I'd still do it. Roughly 180 points for what basically amounts to 3 lascannon hits per turn on an AV13 chassis doesn't seem like a bad deal to me.

Ailaros, is that predator comparison using the old predator prices, or what they're charging in the CSM (and presumably Dark Angels?) codices?

Uhh, from the current one. I don't keep close track of space marine stuff, so if they've changed it, I don't know.

Last I checked, it cost as much to give a predator lascannon sponsons as it did to take the tank in the first place.

 Ailaros wrote:

Firstly, if we're going to use this criteria, then autocannons are screwed. Way more weapons achieve what autocannons do than achieve what lascannons do.

Secondly, I think that lascannons stand up pretty well using this criteria, actually. You mention melta vets, for example, but they are NOT a replacement for lascannons. Not in the slightest.

Melta guns have a tiny range, which means that it's going to be rather easy for your opponent to simply move in such a way to stay out of range. Alternately, your opponent could have a shred of common sense and focus their fire on them before they can get any solid shots in. Meltaguns (outside of being dropped in by stormtroopers), are a purely defensive weapon, designed to punish your opponent for bringing expensive things close to you, not the other way around.

Meanwhile, lascannons start hitting stuff more or less anywhere on the board turn 1. This is important. Lascannons dismount those barge lords. Lascannons break open land raiders, causing the cargo to start out the game on THEIR side of the board. Lascannons take down your opponent's biggest threats before they have a chance to do serious damage. Meltaguns can't do any of this because of their range. Even on stormtroopers, they're not guaranteed to arrive on turn 2, meaning even they aren't hitting things quickly.

Lascannons take things down right now. There are a few analogues to this, like the vanquisher cannon, for example, but everything else shows up either too little, or too late.

Meanwhile, autocannons are guaranteed to suffer from both problems...

So..what can do what the autocannon can do...and lets talk infantry weapons.

But most importantly, you are still missing the point. You are talking stats versus context. The OP is looking for a snap weapon to add on with a few additional points. Under that criteria the AC is marginally better than the Las at killing marines. Not by much, but it is and it does it for cheaper.

Oh, and in regard sto Las cracking AV14.....A las cannon has 16.5% chance of wounding AV 14. and an 8% chance of penetrating. So, to guarantee a wound (glance or pen) AV 14 you will need about 6 Las. To guarantee a pen you would need double that. So, assuming a min IS squad ( and not counting the PCS) you are looking at 420 points to guarantee a glance (witha 50% chance of a pen) on AV 14. 260 gets you the vendetta and melta vets. Go up to 365 and you get the vendetta, melta vets and a min squad of melta storm troops as well.

The Las is great. And at BS4 it will always be my first choice. But in a guard army there are cheaper, and more flexible ways to achieve the same results.

ender502

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:

Corollax wrote:
PCS tax? Excuse me?

The PCS is outstanding. 4 special weapon slots on a 30 point scoring unit? Yes please.

You still *have* to take them. I'm not arguing that they aren't useful but you have to do something with them.

For those dismissive of them, 4 Flamers on a PCS, in a HF/HF Chimera is a nasty box of surprises.
Will I claim it to be the build to end all builds? No.

But it certainly has it's uses for a 105 point scoring unit, that can give orders.

Of course they're useful and I'm not dismissing them, I'm just calling them a tax on the IS for the purposes of the argument I was making. 4 Flamers or an additional HW for pretty cheap? Damn straight. The orders? Meh. CCS has the orders you want.

 Che-Vito wrote:

Ailaros wrote:
Moreover, it's rather splitting hairs comparing the weapon on this metric. It would be like saying that grenade launchers are better than sniper rifles against terminators, and therefore grenade launchers are a good weapon to take against terminators.

Okay, you brought it up (and put a gun to my head) so I did the math.

3 BS4 Grenade Launchers [Krak Round] v.s. 3 BS4 Sniper Rifles

Snipers: 2 hits, 1 wound (0.66 normal, 0.33 Rend) = 0.33 unsaved TEQ with 2+/5++
Grenade Launcher: 2 hits, 1.66 wounds = 0.27 unsaved wounds

Sniper Rifle at 36" > Grenade Launcher at 24"
Unless you're moving with the firing models.

I'm genuine pissed that I bothered to do that math.

Why are you comparing the two worst upgrades available?

so kinda back along original topic.

i got 40 points, currently in 4 Autocannons with my Plasma loaded Vets.

Do I........

1. keep AC's?
2. swap for 2 Las Cannons
3. swap for 4 PowerAxes
4. swap for 4 plasma pistols?

what say you Dakka?

I'd swear by autocannons but everything seems to work against them. If you compare them to lascannons they suck. The lascannon hits all the right targets far better than the autocannon could. Even a heavy bolter outclasses the autocannon in the right area. The autocannon however is quite comparable to the missile launcher in a way. It is the jack of all trades but master of non. The autocannon, is for the man that doesn't need the lascannon but has enough anti-infantry to do without the heavy bolter. It's a filler weapon that fills the gap for the man who has everything. There is never a time in a game where I have thought ''damn! I wish i had more autocannons'' But at the same time, I've never thought bad of them. It's the grey man's of the weapon choice. It never really truely shines, but it never goes without making a contribution.

My advice? When you're happy that you have enough anti-tank and anti-infantry, you can't go wrong with the autocannon.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 RegulusBlack wrote:
so kinda back along original topic.

i got 40 points, currently in 4 Autocannons with my Plasma loaded Vets.

Do I........

1. keep AC's?
2. swap for 2 Las Cannons
3. swap for 4 PowerAxes
4. swap for 4 plasma pistols?

what say you Dakka?

I'd say 2, since they're vets.
If it was a PIS I'd say keep the ACs

So, one of the things that this kind of debate fails to recognize is, the composition of my army, and what needs do I have currently. Not to mention everyone tries to compare apples to oranges regarding cost.

You have an easy way to standardize at least the cost equivalent to wound, in my previous example 4 AC’s vs. 2 LC’s which is better?

Well it depends, currently I’m running @ 1850 pts:
15 Plasma guns
4 melta guns
9 twin linked Lascannons
3 Plasma Cannons
Lascannon Skyfire/Interceptor platform
2 Earthshaker Cannons
4 Autocannons

Plus an assortment of lasguns/pistols.

So here’s some math regarding the 40 points (4x AutoCannons vs. 2x LasCannons) attacking open Space Marines.

AC = 8 shots x.66 (BS 4)
5.28 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
4.38 Wds x .33 (Armor Save)
1.45 Dead Marines.

LC = 2 shots x .66 (BS4)
1.32 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
1.1 Wds
1.1 Dead Marines.

In cover it gears much higher to AC’s (1.1 x .66 [cover save fail] =
.726 Dead Marines. (half of the Autocannon kills)

Now your thinking, well you silly git, I face terminators every game, all game, every time.
Alright lets do some numbers again.

Same amount of wounds the only thing that’s changing is armor saves.

AC = 8 shots x.66 (BS 4)
5.28 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
4.38 Wds x .17 (Armor Save)
0.744 Dead Terminators

LC = 2 shots x .66 (BS4)
1.32 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
1.1 Wds x .66 (5++ invul)
0.726 Dead terminators

In summation REGARDING TROOPS, AC’s in my experience (although short in regards to the game) have a slight advantage over Lascannons. My math does not address a few outliers: (double strength IC’s, multi wound models) However anything not wearing power armor or better (which is approximately ½ of the current armies available) melts to AC’s . so take it for what it’s worth, others can argue about this that or the other but I think math is the one constant we all can agree on.

 RegulusBlack wrote:
. My math does not address a few outliers: (double strength IC’s, multi wound models) However anything not wearing power armor or better (which is approximately ½ of the current armies available) melts to AC’s .

Multiwound models and double-toughing IC's are huge deals.

And codex ratio does not matter. It is a meta thing. And I doubt you're in the magical meta where everyone isn't in PA. Usually, it's at least 3/5, if not 2/3 Power Armor armies in a meta.

i would concur that multi wound models are more problematic, however you are not going to be dropping most of those with 2 LasCannons, any easier than 4 AC's.

Most multiwound models have several more benefits going for them (T5, EW, Higher invul saves 4++, or even 3++), sure there are some armies that can field multi wound 2+ save bodies, but your still not going to be dropping those guys a ton based on 2 extra Lascannon shots any easier than 8 AC shots.

 Ailaros wrote:
In the case of a pred, though, you nearly TRIPLE the cost by giving it the lascannons. That said, I'd still do it. Roughly 180 points for what basically amounts to 3 lascannon hits per turn on an AV13 chassis doesn't seem like a bad deal to me.

Tri-las Predators cost 140 points these days...