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 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
And for the record, the majority of the arguments against me have been: "Your argument has been disproven". Saying something has been disproven doesn't make it so, although to someone skimming through the thread, it may certainly appear that way.

Well I'll post the counter agument as rules again for you to look through and consider.

I propose that there are 2 definitions of "Fortication" defined in the BRB.

Fortification(1): First Fortification is a terrain type (or 'Cover Type' if you prefer: The cover granted by a piece of terrain). This is found on the Cover Chart of Page 18.

Fortification(2): The second is a piece of terrain purchased for your army and taking up the "Fortification" slot found on the FoC (page 114). All of these have their own datasheet.

These I believe are totally different things. The following rules quotes will show why:
Under the rules for Fortifications we have a section called Terrain Type.

Fortifcations Page 114 wrote:Terrain Type: This tells you what part of the terrain rules you'll need to refer to when using your Fortication. This can be anything from a line of barricades to a large building

So we know Fortifications have a Terrain Type.

Fortification(1) is a terrain type, while Fortification(2) requires a terrain type.

We now look to the Aegis Defence Line Datasheet:

Aegis Defence Line Page 114 wrote:Terrain Type: Battlefield Debris (Defence lines)

This tells us that the Terrain Type is Defence Line, and not Fortification(1).

What we have here is an unhappy naming coincidence. Where 2 different things have been given the same name. Fortuatly the Datasheet for the AGL makes it clear which Terrain Type we need to use.

Feel free to post any counter arguements to the above, along with page numbers please.

Having only skimmed the rules quoted, that looks like ADL should be a 3+ save to me. But I do want to spend some time looking closer at my BRB.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Having only skimmed the rules quoted, that looks like ADL should be a 3+ save to me. But I do want to spend some time looking closer at my BRB.

Having only skimmed your post, it looks like you just said the ADL should be a 4+ save. But I do want to spend more time looking closer at posts.

Right so if the ADL is terrain type: defense line (which would normally confer a 4+ cover) and the Purpose Built Fortifications (which the ADL is listed under) all confer a 3+ cover save, it sounds to me that the ADL is a more specific type of defense line than the generic and that the 3+ would apply... (?) Thoughts?

Edit- Jeez I hope this isn't the case... facing a 4+ ADL every game is bad enough. A 3+ would be hateful...

Beast wrote:
Right so if the ADL is terrain type: defense line (which would normally confer a 4+ cover) and the Purpose Built Fortifications (which the ADL is listed under) all confer a 3+ cover save, it sounds to me that the ADL is a more specific type of defense line than the generic and that the 3+ would apply... (?) Thoughts?

This is pretty much the way I read it. Either way, headed off to bed. Will let you know if GW emails me back to clear this all up for us. ROFL

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Will let you know if GW emails me back to clear this all up for us. ROFL

An e-mail from GW and a quarter will get you about 25 cents.

Beast wrote:
Right so if the ADL is terrain type: defense line (which would normally confer a 4+ cover) and the Purpose Built Fortifications (which the ADL is listed under) all confer a 3+ cover save, it sounds to me that the ADL is a more specific type of defense line than the generic and that the 3+ would apply... (?) Thoughts?

Where is ADL listed under Purpose Built Fortications? The only time "Purpose Built" is mentioned is under Types of Cover Saves on page 18 (unless I'm missing something). The "Purpose-built" seems to be fluff text rather than a type, as is their "Bloodthorn Hedge" rather than "Hedge"

Miri wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Step 1: What are we talking about?
Aegis Defence Line
Step 2: What type is it?
*Flips to page 114*
It's Battlefield Debris with subtype 'Defence Line'
Step 3: What does that give?
*flips to page 105*
Defence Line has the same rules as barricades and walls, except for the additional Go to Ground.
Barricades and Walls give a 4+ cover save.

It's a specific rule about the ADL and that beats every general fortification-rule that you can find in the book.

So I'm paying 50 points for something I can get with good terrain placement?

If your store provides aegis def lines for terrain, sure. However, if you are just placing a barricade or a wall, you won't get the +2 cover save for going to ground like you would with an aegis def line.

And the aegis def line allows you to purchase a quad gun that you don't have access to.

 grendel083 wrote:

Where is ADL listed under Purpose Built Fortications? The only time "Purpose Built" is mentioned is under Types of Cover Saves on page 18 (unless I'm missing something).

"Purpose-built" is also used on p109, the first sentence under "Fortification" in the bottom right.

What if the ADL is both things at once? It couldconfer two cover saves at the same time—one from being a Purpose-Built Fortification (3+), and one from being a Barricades and Walls (4+).
This is a possible scenario in other situations. For example, if a Dakka Jet evades and then turbo-boosts, it will have a 4+ cover save. If it ends its move in range of a KFF, it will have a 5+ cover save. The Jet now has both a 4+ and a 5+ cover save at the same time. It will, of course, use the better save.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Where is ADL listed under Purpose Built Fortications? The only time "Purpose Built" is mentioned is under Types of Cover Saves on page 18 (unless I'm missing something).

"Purpose-built" is also used on p109, the first sentence under "Fortification" in the bottom right.

What if the ADL is both things at once? It couldconfer two cover saves at the same time—one from being a Purpose-Built Fortification (3+), and one from being a Barricades and Walls (4+).
This is a possible scenario in other situations. For example, if a Dakka Jet evades and then turbo-boosts, it will have a 4+ cover save. If it ends its move in range of a KFF, it will have a 5+ cover save. The Jet now has both a 4+ and a 5+ cover save at the same time. It will, of course, use the better save.

That is true of the dakkajet.

But in the situation with the ADL, the Defense lines cover save (4+) text is more specific than the blanket fortification cover save (3+) text. Therefore the ADL has a 4+ cover save and not that of a general fortification.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Where is ADL listed under Purpose Built Fortications? The only time "Purpose Built" is mentioned is under Types of Cover Saves on page 18 (unless I'm missing something).

"Purpose-built" is also used on p109, the first sentence under "Fortification" in the bottom right.

Ah yes, but that is Purpose-built battlefield defences. Purpose-built Fortifications is only on Page 18 and soes not list the ADL under it.

What if the ADL is both things at once? It couldconfer two cover saves at the same time—one from being a Purpose-Built Fortification (3+), and one from being a Barricades and Walls (4+).

While possible, there is no rule telling us to class it as a Purpose-built Fortification. The Datasheet states Defence Line, so why apply something else as well?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Where is ADL listed under Purpose Built Fortications? The only time "Purpose Built" is mentioned is under Types of Cover Saves on page 18 (unless I'm missing something).

"Purpose-built" is also used on p109, the first sentence under "Fortification" in the bottom right.

Ah yes, but that is Purpose-built battlefield defences. Purpose-built Fortifications is only on Page 18 and soes not list the ADL under it.

I don't see anything about purpose built fortifications on pg 18 at all. Just fortifications.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm....

What exactly is a fortification?

 imweasel wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Where is ADL listed under Purpose Built Fortications? The only time "Purpose Built" is mentioned is under Types of Cover Saves on page 18 (unless I'm missing something).

"Purpose-built" is also used on p109, the first sentence under "Fortification" in the bottom right.

Ah yes, but that is Purpose-built battlefield defences. Purpose-built Fortifications is only on Page 18 and soes not list the ADL under it.

I don't see anything about purpose built fortifications on pg 18 at all. Just fortifications.

That's sort of the point, it was stated that the ADL was listed under "Purpose-built Fortifiications".
It is mentioned on page 18, in the rule named "Types of Cover Saves" in the first paragraph, but it definatly doesn't list anything as this type.
I think some miss-quoting of "Purpose-buit Fortifications" has caused some of the confusion in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 imweasel wrote:
I don't think an ADL is even a fortification. How about that?

Fortifcation as in the cover? No it isn't, it's a defence line.

I don't see anything about purpose built fortifications, I see reference to purpose built battlefield defences on page 109. Not purpose built fortifications.

 imweasel wrote:
I don't see anything about purpose built fortifications, I see reference to purpose built battlefield defences on page 109. Not purpose built fortifications.

That is because "Purpose-built fortifications" is on page 18, last sentence under Types of Cover Save.

 Happyjew wrote:

 imweasel wrote:
I don't see anything about purpose built fortifications, I see reference to purpose built battlefield defences on page 109. Not purpose built fortifications.

That is because "Purpose-built fortifications" is on page 18, last sentence under Types of Cover Save.

It is. But the ADL is not listed as being that. Nothing is.
I suspect the "Purpose-built" part is mearly fluff.

Agree grendel. This is interesting...

I can see both sides of this. I guess the discussion should be 'is the adl a fortification?'

'if it is, does the terrain type override fortification? Or is it vice versa?'

 imweasel wrote:
Agree grendel. This is interesting...

I can see both sides of this. I guess the discussion should be 'is the adl a fortification?'

'if it is, does the terrain type override fortification? Or is it vice versa?'

Well my point earlier on was the book seems to define two types of "Fortification" one being a terrain type found on P18, the other is purchased sort that goes in the FoC P114 (these require a terrain type).

Guys, I'm pretty sure ADL gives 5+ cover save, but you have to roll on a special 7 sided die for this.

Super Newb wrote:
Guys, I'm pretty sure ADL gives 5+ cover save, but you have to roll on a special 7 sided die for this.

I think we can all just ignore this post. This is a rules debate please do not post random jokes and garbage alike so we can keep our threads serious

 A GumyBear wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Guys, I'm pretty sure ADL gives 5+ cover save, but you have to roll on a special 7 sided die for this.

I think we can all just ignore this post.

Probably, but it still made me chuckle.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 imweasel wrote:
I don't see anything about purpose built fortifications, I see reference to purpose built battlefield defences on page 109. Not purpose built fortifications.

That is because "Purpose-built fortifications" is on page 18, last sentence under Types of Cover Save.

It is. But the ADL is not listed as being that. Nothing is.
I suspect the "Purpose-built" part is mearly fluff.

Nothing is defined as Purpose Built Fortification anywhere, but there are rules for it? Seems like the OP may have a point there then?

So p109 (Fortifications) specifically refers you to p114 for a selection of purpose built fortifications... p114 Describes the entries for these fortifications (points value, composition, terrain type, Acces & fire points, weapons, options, weapons profiles). Immediately after that begins the actual fortifications you may choose to buy for your army, ADL being the first, followed by Skyshield on the next page and then Bastion and Fortress of Redemption after that. This is what I meant by ADLs being listed as purpose built fortifications Grendel. And since all of those choices are listed under this section "Fortifications" on p 114, ADL is therefore a type of purpose built fortification... The ADL description itself even refers to it as a fortifiication... "Aegis Defense Lines are ideally suited for commanders wishing to gain a foothold in enemy territory or establish perimeters until such time when larger, more permanent fortifications can be constructed. '" The "larger more permanent fortifications" part of that is a comparative that defines ADLs as a smaller, less permanent fortification, but a fortification none-the-less... And fortifications confer a 3+ cover save... So I think Betray may indeed have found something the rest of us didn't catch onto...

Edit spelling.

 A GumyBear wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Guys, I'm pretty sure ADL gives 5+ cover save, but you have to roll on a special 7 sided die for this.

I think we can all just ignore this post. This is a rules debate please do not post random jokes and garbage alike so we can keep our threads serious

Oh boy, excuuuuuuse me! I didn't realize all the other posts in this thread were classified as 'non-garbage' LOL


Still, I am glad you realized I was joking and informed everyone of the fact in case they thought I was serious.

Super Newb wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Guys, I'm pretty sure ADL gives 5+ cover save, but you have to roll on a special 7 sided die for this.

I think we can all just ignore this post. This is a rules debate please do not post random jokes and garbage alike so we can keep our threads serious

Oh boy, excuuuuuuse me! I didn't realize all the other posts in this thread were classified as 'non-garbage' LOL


Still, I am glad you realized I was joking and informed everyone of the fact in case they thought I was serious.

Wait you mean you were not serious? Dang, there goes that strategy...

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 imweasel wrote:
I don't see anything about purpose built fortifications, I see reference to purpose built battlefield defences on page 109. Not purpose built fortifications.

That is because "Purpose-built fortifications" is on page 18, last sentence under Types of Cover Save.

It is. But the ADL is not listed as being that. Nothing is.
I suspect the "Purpose-built" part is mearly fluff.

Nothing is defined as Purpose Built Fortification anywhere, but there are rules for it? Seems like the OP may have a point there then?

The problem here is that nothing is listed as terrain type: fortification when there are specific rules for it and they use too many different mentionings of fortifications in seperate areas so now it is just a debate of what counts as a fortification because if an adl is a fortification on top of its current type I'm sure it would just be like any normal save and you take the highest. But that brings up the instance of it's going to ground rule etc etc

To further this assertion, the last sentence of the first paragraph on p114 says "All fortifications have a datasheet that contains all the information you'll need to use them in your game." And what is the very first datasheet listed on that page? Yes, it is the ADL...

Beast wrote:
To further this assertion, the last sentence of the first paragraph on p114 says "All fortifications have a datasheet that contains all the information you'll need to use them in your game." And what is the very first datasheet listed on that page? Yes, it is the ADL...

Yep, and that Datasheet lists it's Terrain Type as Defence Line, not Fortification.

Beast wrote:
To further this assertion, the last sentence of the first paragraph on p114 says "All fortifications have a datasheet that contains all the information you'll need to use them in your game." And what is the very first datasheet listed on that page? Yes, it is the ADL...

i think you may have just hit a homerun with this one. Right when i was about to go over to the 3+ side of this debate you come in and show that there is no exception for what other rules say. You must use the rules in the datasheet only and none else

So I'm looking at Fortifications and Dilapidation on pg 96. And oddly (to some anyway) the whole thing refers to buildings as fortifications.