Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mr Hyena wrote:


Buying the disc doesn't mean your buying the unlock key for DLC content on the disc, unless it says otherwise. Companies do it cause they know DLC is popular and is a way to extend the life of a game, while also funding the next game in the series. If fans really hated DLC, we'd never see DLC sell.

Heck, in a lot of cases it reaaaally helps the game shine and last longer. Continuing with Borderlands 2 as an example, the DLC scheme for that was amazing, because while not essential, it really was spread out in a way to enable to player to return to the game and still have tons of stuff to do. Fallout's DLC scheme is also a good example.

Its win/win for the fans.

Not exactly, DLC splits into 2 categories normally it seems. The Cosmetic stuff, like horse armour, map packs, skins etc. Thats the good DLC, make a little extra money, give the players a little extra something. The BAD DLC is the stuff that should really have been on the disk already, "From ashes" For instance, or how only about half of Allen Wake is on the disk. Thats the bad dlc, where the company sells us half the game at full game price, then the rest after. It's like buying the first 9 chapters of the book for full book price, then paying the same again for the other chapters one at a time till you have them all. It's not "better", and it's not a win for the fans, its the fans paying for half a game then having to double down on what they spent for the rest of it.

It's like buying the first 9 chapters of the book for full book price

Thats what comics do.

 Mr Hyena wrote:

That's just sleazy. Especially when these are companies will multi-billion dollar companies behind them. They don't need a pick me up.

Look how easy THQ fell.

Not putting it on the disc doesn't really make a difference since you still can't access it without buying the dlc anyway.

It took a long time for THQ to die...
They even had a freaking games industry bake sale as they died...

 Mr Hyena wrote:

That's just sleazy. Especially when these are companies will multi-billion dollar companies behind them. They don't need a pick me up.

Look how easy THQ fell.

Not putting it on the disc doesn't really make a difference since you still can't access it without buying the dlc anyway.

You mean the years of bad sales before it actually escalated? Sure.

 Mr Hyena wrote:
Hard copies is a quickly dying medium.

Nobody hates DLC as a concept, it's more of the fact that people like Capcom have twelve characters on the completed and on the disc and expect you to pay for them, instead of just handing you the finished product out of the gate.

Then wouldn't they have to bump the price of the finished game up since you'd be buying the unlock key too?

This is the thought process we've come to guys. Instead of expecting 60+ hours of gameplay, secrets, and exploration, we need to up the price of things already on the disc for a twelve hour game.

If you guys need me, I'll be in the closet, crushing all hopes and dreams I have left for the media.







I mean, I'm all for putting unlock keys in the Game case for new purchases. If those twelve characters were "Buying New Incentive", I would have no problem with that. But if you expect me to buy a game for $60, then another $24 to unlock every character that is already completed and on the disc, then I'm going to have a problem with it, and am not going to buy your game new since I can't trust you as a developer/publisher. I mean, I'm already buying Remember Me used because it's Crapcom.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Hyena wrote:

It's like buying the first 9 chapters of the book for full book price

Thats what comics do.

Most comic books are also $2.99 to $14.00.....

Most comic books are also $2.99 to $14.00.....

The principle is the same...or is it not bad at all when its affordable?

Games fans will always want as much content as they can get while paying as little as they can. Game devs will try to sell as much content as they can for as much as they can. Its all very natural. The market will adjust itself accordingly to meet this.

THQ's downfall had very little to do with not selling DLC. They sold plenty of that. Their issues lay elsewhere.

 Mr Hyena wrote:

That's just sleazy. Especially when these are companies will multi-billion dollar companies behind them. They don't need a pick me up.

Look how easy THQ fell.

Not putting it on the disc doesn't really make a difference since you still can't access it without buying the dlc anyway.

People are getting mad because there's content on the disc, that you cannot use unless you pay more, even though you bought the disc already.

Imagine if you bought a car with an airbag and a speedometer built in, but neither work. You're sitting there, looking right at them. You know they're in the car, already installed. You go to the auto dealership, and they say "oh, you want to use those? Well here, pay this small fee, and we'll activate those for you." That is on disc DLC, and that is what people get mad about.

The content is right there. Oftentimes people crack the game and can see the content on the disc before it's even released. But you have to pay to access it. You're essentially buying something, and then being told you have to pay again if you actually want to use it.

An example of off disc DLC (or you know, actual DLC) would probably be BF3, but I imagine that's more because the maps take up a ton of memory. They probably tried to fit it on the disk anyways. That's why their map pack updates are typically 2-3 gigs in size.

 LordofHats wrote:
THQ's downfall had very little to do with not selling DLC. They sold plenty of that. Their issues lay elsewhere.

Namely mismanagement and being overly ambitious without a fallback plan.

 Mr Hyena wrote:

Most comic books are also $2.99 to $14.00.....

The principle is the same...or is it not bad at all when its affordable?

Games fans will always want as much content as they can get while paying as little as they can. Game devs will try to sell as much content as they can for as much as they can. Its all very natural. The market will adjust itself accordingly to meet this.

Not at all, as a comic book you expect that. It doesn't brandish itself as a full product, it clearly says issue number whatever. Games declare themselves as a finished product, and if im paying the price for a finished product thats what i expect to get, not half of it.

As for the bolded part, not at all. I count myself as a game fan, and I would happily pay top money for a game that is good and FINISHED. I won't however pay £40-50 on brand new games when they're only half finished works. I payed full price for games brand new on the PS2, gameboys and whathave you because back then, yes, they were finished works and I was happy to pay that amount for them. Now though, no. The companies themselves have jaded me against that, and they themselves have ensured my games money goes towards indie titles instead.

I often pay more than is necessary for games such as Starbound, various Kickstarter games, and the Humble Bundle-- and in many cases, without getting anything substantial in return.

But I support their development and want to see more games like them.

As for the bolded part, not at all. I count myself as a game fan, and I would happily pay top money for a game that is good and FINISHED. I won't however pay £40-50 on brand new games when they're only half finished works. I payed full price for games brand new on the PS2, gameboys and whathave you because back then, yes, they were finished works and I was happy to pay that amount for them. Now though, no. The companies themselves have jaded me against that, and they themselves have ensured my games money goes towards indie titles instead.

To take the capcom example, does lacking the dlc characters make it less of a game when the game is functional and can be completed without them?

What is 'finished'? is it no DLC?

Not at all, as a comic book you expect that.

So why won't you do the same with the game, when you know full well they advertise the dlc in the same way.

You're essentially buying something, and then being told you have to pay again if you actually want to use it.

Its mirky with software. You can't buy the copyright to it so you technically don't own it, so the car analogy doesnt work.

I'm more annoyed by console-specific characters. If they were DLC that'd be fine, but saying "nope feth you, in order to play as yoda or whatever you need to pay 500 bucks for a console" is stupid.

 Melissia wrote:
I'm more annoyed by console-specific characters. If they were DLC that'd be fine, but saying "nope feth you, in order to play as yoda or whatever you need to pay 500 bucks for a console" is stupid.

Super Meatboy did this and it sucked.

This can be avoided if they just sell the console-specific ones as DLCs after a set period of time deemed as fair. This is what happens with company-specific preorder-only characters/factions nowadays like in Total War.

Yeah, pre-order stuff should never be eternally exclusive either.

 Mr Hyena wrote:

As for the bolded part, not at all. I count myself as a game fan, and I would happily pay top money for a game that is good and FINISHED. I won't however pay £40-50 on brand new games when they're only half finished works. I payed full price for games brand new on the PS2, gameboys and whathave you because back then, yes, they were finished works and I was happy to pay that amount for them. Now though, no. The companies themselves have jaded me against that, and they themselves have ensured my games money goes towards indie titles instead.

To take the capcom example, does lacking the dlc characters make it less of a game when the game is functional and can be completed without them?

What is 'finished'? is it no DLC?

Not at all, as a comic book you expect that.

So why won't you do the same with the game, when you know full well they advertise the dlc in the same way.

Characters? No, read what I said above. That count's towards skins, map packs etc. Its a nice bonus, but at the end of the day just that. Even in fighters where they come with an extra bit of story, the "story" is normally just a sentence or two retelling from another characters side. "Finished" would imply the full story, the meat of the game, is there. Look at ME3, there was DLC that really should have been main story. Alan Wake, with the exception if i recall of the latest one, the 3 "DLC" sections to it were all main story points. I have already said, i'm happy for DLC in games, provided that half of the games content isn't missing because they rushed the release or think they can double their money off it, and I then have to pay to play the other half of the game.

As for doing the same with a game as for a comic, for a start they're both different mediums. With a comic, there's a very real chance it won't end for several years and just keep going. Look at the long running Marvel/DC. I can in theory pick up any issue number of any series and get going. I can read it as a one off or get into said series from any point at all. With video games this concept of only paying for half of my game is a relatively new concept, before this new gen of developers i have never had to look at a game and think "Gee, £40 seems reasonable, but how much is the DLC gonna cost so i can finish it?". I shouldn't HAVE to think that when buying it, same as i shouldn't have to pick up a DVD and go "£6 for the first hour? Great! Can't wait to get that watched so i can pay another £6 to download the second half of the film!". Point of the matter is, they should finish the games before releasing them, not half finishing them then expecting the fans to throw more money at them to finish it.

 Mr Hyena wrote:
A:CM was already well stagnated before they were given it. Honestly, A:CM should have just been canceled. Too many developers had been involved in it; thats a sign of a game which will never amount to anything nor make any money.

Sad as I would have been, this is probably true. As it turns out, the alternative was also pretty sad.

Anyway, about this "DLC on the disc you bought thing" - I'm not sure if I see that as a problem. If you buy a copy of Windows, your key determines which version it becomes when activated. The iso is the same, whether it's Windows 7 Home Basic, Home Premium, Professional, Enterprise or Ultimate. If you buy a copy of Windows Home for $80 or whatever, can you then argue that you now own 5 copies of Windows? What's the difference?

Moving back to the OP: I'm not sure they can win this lawsuit. I think the points here are maybe too subtle for a jury; which is a shame because I was looking forward to a $2 off coupon and making some lawyer millions of dollars. That being said, I will be pleased nonetheless with this lawsuit hopefully chilling some of the ridiculous pre-release nonsense that has become somewhat common in this industry (although a 10 minute video of lies kinda did take it to the next level).

 Mr Hyena wrote:

As for the bolded part, not at all. I count myself as a game fan, and I would happily pay top money for a game that is good and FINISHED. I won't however pay £40-50 on brand new games when they're only half finished works. I payed full price for games brand new on the PS2, gameboys and whathave you because back then, yes, they were finished works and I was happy to pay that amount for them. Now though, no. The companies themselves have jaded me against that, and they themselves have ensured my games money goes towards indie titles instead.

To take the capcom example, does lacking the dlc characters make it less of a game when the game is functional and can be completed without them?

What is 'finished'? is it no DLC?

No, Finished is when a game tells a complete story, start to finish, without having to buy anything extra. In addition, it's everything that was completed when the game went Gold.

Let us compare and contrast Tekken X Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat:

TXSF: 12 fighters on the disc but locked. All fighters were complete and ready to go. You were forced to spend additional money on them to play them. This is Bad.

Mortal Kombat: Skarlet's model and about half her animations were in the game upon release (You can see her chapter one, story mode). Her particles, moves, and controls were not, and we got her free if we bought the Season Pass (4 characters for the price of 3, AND new skins free). This is good.


Now, let us compare ME3 with Dragon Age: Origins:

Shale: One new area, One Side mission, One New character, no bearing on story mode. Free if you bought the game. This is good.

ME3: One new companion, HUGE bearing on story mode, no matter what you had to buy it. This is bad.


On Disc stuff isn't necessarily bad, if it's A) Incomplete (So as to make Downloads easier) or B) an off shoot non essential part (Shale). BUt whne half the game requires you to pay for it, that's when we have a problem.

 Slarg232 wrote:
TXSF: 12 fighters on the disc but locked. All fighters were complete and ready to go. You were forced to spend additional money on them to play them. This is Bad.

Not to mention the character select screen was designed with the extra characters in their places and showed their pics but would tell you 'nope' if you put your cursor over them so that even if you never bought the unlock code they would always be there, taunting you, whenever you played the game

Looks like Timegate has gone out of business

Not quite yet. They've filed for Bankrupcy protection which is Step 1 in going out of business.

 LordofHats wrote:
Not quite yet. They've filed for Bankrupcy protection which is Step 1 in going out of business.

That and layed off all the employees it seems, but they're getting there.

Well that's what happens when you make a bunch of sucky games. That or you blame pirates

 LordofHats wrote:
Not quite yet. They've filed for Bankrupcy protection which is Step 1 in going out of business.

So they have. Link for the lazy.

That's pretty extreme. What's this about fraud judgement? I've not heard of this.