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jazzpaintball wrote:

 davou wrote:
You seem to be confusing 'resolved' with a 'set value modifier'.


GW writes the rules for warhammer, not a dictionary... I think going to Websters for some enterpretation that favors one side of this argument is reaching, especially if the other side can provide nearly ten quotes from the rulebook, FAQ, and codices that contradict

You mean to tell me we should no longer use English while reading the rules? We should not use the words that the rule writers use?

Using a dictionary to find out what the definition of a word used in the rules should indicate everything. If they used the word "Resolve(d)", then we should heed that word.

Saying that we should omit words because GW is not a dictionary writer is insulting to the writers; telling them that they are too stupid to use words like that for that is obviously not what they meant to use.

I am not trying to "interpret' what 'resolved' means, and am showing you that you do not know what 'resolved' means.

The ten quotes you have are all forgetting this one damn word: Resolved.
The codex explicitly states that the shot is RESOLVED at BS 5. No matter what you do, the shot is BS 5 after all other considerations. Since the codex overrides the BRB, then the BS 5 prevails.

Unlike the FAQ, no other weapon mentioned is a "resolved at BS X" shot. Instead, it is all modifiers to the model's BS, which is still affected by snap shots.

Yes, it does say resolved... But nowhere in any FAQ, rulebook or codex does it say the word resolve grants special permission to disregard rules that DO have definitions. Resolve!=set value.

I'm not trying to say ignore English, I'm trying to say you're fishing for technical answers in a pond of rhetoric and that's absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please show me where in the book it says that to 'resolve' something means to ignore the regular rules regarding the thing that is being resolved.

 davou wrote:

Please show me where in the book it says that to 'resolve' something means to ignore the regular rules regarding the thing that is being resolved.

The BRB probably does not have it since it expects people to read/know/understand English words....

jazzpaintball wrote:

 davou wrote:

Please show me where in the book it says that to 'resolve' something means to ignore the regular rules regarding the thing that is being resolved.

The BRB probably does not have it since it expects people to read/know/understand English words....

Now you're just being thick about it.... Here's a quote from the dictionary then


Resolve: to deal with (a question, a matter of uncertainty, etc.) conclusively; settle; solve: to resolve the question before the board

Show me where permission is granted for the question, matter of uncertainty, etc to be dealt with in a manner that contradicts the normal procedures. In the context of 40k; where is your permission to hit a flyer with anything but a snap shot? I know exactly where the permission to do that is denied, but can you show me where it's granted?

Hell, I can even point to pages of the core rulebook that use the word resolve, and not one of them make mention of doing anything BUT applying normals game procedures... See pages 6,9,15,20,21,22,25,27,32,40,42,52,64..... The list goes way on

 davou wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:

 davou wrote:

Please show me where in the book it says that to 'resolve' something means to ignore the regular rules regarding the thing that is being resolved.

The BRB probably does not have it since it expects people to read/know/understand English words....

Now you're just being thick about it.... Here's a quote from the dictionary then


Resolve: to deal with (a question, a matter of uncertainty, etc.) conclusively; settle; solve: to resolve the question before the board

Show me where permission is granted for the question, matter of uncertainty, etc to be dealt with in a manner that contradicts the normal procedures. In the context of 40k; where is your permission to hit a flyer with anything but a snap shot? I know exactly where the permission to do that is denied, but can you show me where it's granted?

Hell, I can even point to pages of the core rulebook that use the word resolve, and not one of them make mention of doing anything BUT applying normals game procedures... See pages 6,9,15,20,21,22,25,27,32,40,42,52,64..... The list goes way on

I am sorry for seeming thick, but you are seeming the same way to me; it is called a debate for a reason, haha!

Thank you for the list. I do not have a PDF, so that is helpful.

What I am confused about, why do you see the snap-shot as the end-all modifier. We definately know now that it is not due to pinpoint.

Why cant a model fire using snap-fire like it has BS 1 in its profile, and then the seeker missile's "resolve at BS 5" be the last modifier. Even on page 15, resolved is used as a notion of "at the very end."

Page 20: resolve is "the very end" or "to finish" the overwatch.

I can find them all if you would like, but I have a feeling that all of them will pertain to the very end of an action or phase.

jazzpaintball wrote:
Why cant a model fire using snap-fire like it has BS 1 in its profile, and then the seeker missile's "resolve at BS 5" be the last modifier. Even on page 15, resolved is used as a notion of "at the very end."

Because then you are modifying the BS1 of Snap Shots which is explicitly forbidden, unless the rule specifically states it can modify Snap Shots.

 Happyjew wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
Why cant a model fire using snap-fire like it has BS 1 in its profile, and then the seeker missile's "resolve at BS 5" be the last modifier. Even on page 15, resolved is used as a notion of "at the very end."

Because then you are modifying the BS1 of Snap Shots which is explicitly forbidden, unless the rule specifically states it can modify Snap Shots.

And this knowledge is from the FAQ correct?

The examples given are things that change the stat line of a model. A Signum makes a model's stat line a BS 5. Pinpoint also changes the stat line of the model, but this is expressively permitted though the codex.

We are not doing that here though. The model shooting at the flyer still has a stat line of 1. Only the seeker missile's shot is resolved at BS 5, not the model. The model is still snap shooting BS 1 at the flyer due to the snap shots rule.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
Why cant a model fire using snap-fire like it has BS 1 in its profile, and then the seeker missile's "resolve at BS 5" be the last modifier. Even on page 15, resolved is used as a notion of "at the very end."

Because then you are modifying the BS1 of Snap Shots which is explicitly forbidden, unless the rule specifically states it can modify Snap Shots.

And this knowledge is from the FAQ correct?

The examples given are things that change the stat line of a model. A Signum makes a model's stat line a BS 5. Pinpoint also changes the stat line of the model, but this is expressively permitted though the codex.

We are not doing that here though. The model shooting at the flyer still has a stat line of 1. Only the seeker missile's shot is resolved at BS 5, not the model. The model is still snap shooting BS 1 at the flyer due to the snap shots rule.

The examples are just that, examples. The question (in it's simplest form) is: Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack? No.

If the BS of the Seeker Missile is not a modifier, then (per the rules for modifiers) the set modifier from Snap Shots is applied last. If the BS of the Seeker Missile is a modifier, then it cannot modify Snap Shots.

So I'll leave the choice to you - is the Seeker Missile BS a modifier?

Edit: Also Telion's Voice of Experience does not change the stat line of the model - it just allows the model to use a different BS for the shot. Signums, do change the models BS for the phase.

Exactly; either it snaps shots and has to be BS1, or it does not and therefore cannot ever hit a flyer because it must always hit on a 2+

Either it needs sixes, or its explicitly denied from hitting fliers, we have rules that say that. What we don't have, is allowance for ignoring those rules in the seeker missile entry.

 Happyjew wrote:


If the BS of the Seeker Missile is not a modifier, then (per the rules for modifiers) the set modifier from Snap Shots is applied last. If the BS of the Seeker Missile is a modifier, then it cannot modify Snap Shots.

So I'll leave the choice to you - is the Seeker Missile BS a modifier?

Well hot damn. I am going to tip my hat to you and Davou!

With that, I can not say much else. You are right, the modifier rules states that things are changed as base numbers (in this case BS 5). If the snap shot can not be modified, then the 'resolved' can not take affect and if if is first then snap fire is negated...

Sorry it took so long to sink in, I keep reading 'resolved,' but the way the rules are written, they should never have put that word there. Once again the rule makers used needless words to convey nothing due to the word becoming 'null-and-void.'

People using seekers at the next tourney are gonna hate me....

Thanks for the debate guys, it was fun.

Good form.

It would be kinda abusive anyhow to play it else wise; since there are a number of sources of skyfire markerlights in the codex... It would meanball tau vehicles could take str8 bs5 potshots at fliers for very cheap.

So by this logic, a Seeker fired from a Skyray using a Markerlight would have it resolved at BS1. That is completely bogus.

thejughead wrote:
So by this logic, a Seeker fired from a Skyray using a Markerlight would have it resolved at BS1. That is completely bogus.

Why are you ignoring Skyfire, which a Skyray (and thus all its weapons) has?

 davou wrote:
Good form.

It would be kinda abusive anyhow to play it else wise; since there are a number of sources of skyfire markerlights in the codex... It would meanball tau vehicles could take str8 bs5 potshots at fliers for very cheap.

I think only skyrays have a skyfire markerlight. Suits dont/cant have markerlights, only their drones, and Velocity Trackers on a suit does no affect their drones.

For the most part, unless you have a skyray, it will nearly always be a 1/36 chance of getting a seeker missile to hit a flyer.

I have always thought seekers are pointless, and now even more so with that knowledge for I think skyrays cost WAY too much for something that looses its shots so quickly. If skyrays regenerated seekers, that would be a different story though....

The flyers have it, and pathfinders can get it in the scouring. So can tetras. And a few FW models carry markerlights and have skyfire

 davou wrote:
Exactly; either it snaps shots and has to be BS1, or it does not and therefore cannot ever hit a flyer because it must always hit on a 2+

That's a false dilemma, because you're missing the third option: it snap shots at BS 5 and can shoot at flyers.

Also, your assumption that "always hits on a 2+" means "can't hit flyers" is wrong. The only weapons that are specifically banned from hitting flyers are the ones that use templates (whether plastic ones or imaginary 'draw a line' ones). And the only weapons that are specifically banned from making snap shots are the same template weapons, ordnance weapons, anything that has a special "no snap shots" rule, and anything that doesn't use a BS. Seeker missiles do not use a template, do not have a special "no snap shots" rule, and are resolved using BS. There is no conflict at all in having a BS 5 seeker missile shooting at a flyer without skyfire.

 davou wrote:
Either it needs sixes, or its explicitly denied from hitting fliers, we have rules that say that.

We have no such rules. In fact we have rules that explicitly cause snap shots to be fired at BS greater than 1 (including against flyers), so you can't assume that "snap shots are always BS 1" always takes priority over any other rule.

What we don't have, is allowance for ignoring those rules in the seeker missile entry.

Sure we do. The seeker missile rules say "is resolved at BS 5", not "is resolved at BS 5, except when it isn't". Specific overrides general, non-skyfire seeker missiles are fired as snap shots and resolved at BS 5.

Elric,

I'm not ignoring the Skyfire rule that the skyray has, but using the markerlight means the Skyray did not fire it, hence if you take this logic way too far as I believe some have, you cannot resolve a Seeker from a Skyray using BS5.

You can try and wordsmith around it, but the codex clearly says resolve at BS5.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

thejughead wrote:
So by this logic, a Seeker fired from a Skyray using a Markerlight would have it resolved at BS1. That is completely bogus.

Why are you ignoring Skyfire, which a Skyray (and thus all its weapons) has?

 davou wrote:
The flyers have it, and pathfinders can get it in the scouring. So can tetras. And a few FW models carry markerlights and have skyfire

How are Tau Pathfinders and Firewarriors getting Skyfire short of a one turn Warlord trait or sitting on a Skyfire bonuses Mysterious Objective?

 Miri wrote:

 davou wrote:
The flyers have it, and pathfinders can get it in the scouring. So can tetras. And a few FW models carry markerlights and have skyfire

How are Tau Pathfinders and Firewarriors getting Skyfire short of a one turn Warlord trait or sitting on a Skyfire bonuses Mysterious Objective?

By getting a warloard trait and being on a mysterious objective.

You got it. They have the ability, but unless it is a standard ability, I would never count a model(s) as having it.

thejughead wrote:
Elric,

I'm not ignoring the Skyfire rule that the skyray has, but using the markerlight means the Skyray did not fire it, hence if you take this logic way too far as I believe some have, you cannot resolve a Seeker from a Skyray using BS5.

You can try and wordsmith around it, but the codex clearly says resolve at BS5.

The Skyray has networked markerlights, which means it can use them and fire the missile as well.

That's a false dilemma, because you're missing the third option: it snap shots at BS 5 and can shoot at flyers.

No I'm not, because thats not an option. There's only one way to increase the ballistic skill of a snap shot, and its directly above the entry for Seeker missiles, not in it.

Also, your assumption that "always hits on a 2+" means "can't hit flyers" is wrong. The only weapons that are specifically banned from hitting flyers are the ones that use templates (whether plastic ones or imaginary 'draw a line' ones). And the only weapons that are specifically banned from making snap shots are the same template weapons, ordnance weapons, anything that has a special "no snap shots" rule, and anything that doesn't use a BS. Seeker missiles do not use a template, do not have a special "no snap shots" rule, and are resolved using BS. There is no conflict at all in having a BS 5 seeker missile shooting at a flyer without skyfire.

No It's not, this isnt an assumption, those are the rules of the game. I quoted them a page back, but I'll put them here regardless;

Snap shot
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots
rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is
counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.
FAQ on snap shots
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

and finally

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures

We have no such rules. In fact we have rules that explicitly cause snap shots to be fired at BS greater than 1 (including against flyers), so you can't assume that "snap shots are always BS 1" always takes priority over any other rule.

Yes we do have such rules, I quoted them going on three times now. I don't have to assume it always takes priority, I just noticed that the rules say 'snap shots are always fired at bs one' have two single exceptions. one being a psychic power that mentions its effect on snap shots specifically, and a rule in the tau codex that mentions its effect on snap shots specifically. Does the seeker entry have a specific mention of its effect on snap shots? Is there some indication that the rules for shooting should be ignored? There's no need to assume any kind of priority between a series of rules that do exist, and some very convoluted reading of a rule that kinda implies you can game something if you squint hard enough and do a ton of coke.

Sure we do. The seeker missile rules say "is resolved at BS 5", not "is resolved at BS 5, except when it isn't". Specific overrides general, non-skyfire seeker missiles are fired as snap shots and resolved at BS 5..

Resolve means to see something through to its completion; if you neglect to apply the rules this game includes for snap shooting, then you have not completed that 'resolve'. The book says resolve the shooting attack, not resolve the shooting attack and also ignore the rules if you happen to be snap firing; there is no specific vs general debate here.
I can resolve a shooting attack from a demon prince at a flyer. I'd be resolving that attack at bs9, but it wont count for beans, because he would have to snap fire, unless of course he had skyfire.

thejughead wrote:
Elric,

I'm not ignoring the Skyfire rule that the skyray has, but using the markerlight means the Skyray did not fire it, hence if you take this logic way too far as I believe some have, you cannot resolve a Seeker from a Skyray using BS5.

You can try and wordsmith around it, but the codex clearly says resolve at BS5.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

thejughead wrote:
So by this logic, a Seeker fired from a Skyray using a Markerlight would have it resolved at BS1. That is completely bogus.

Why are you ignoring Skyfire, which a Skyray (and thus all its weapons) has?

Nowhere in the entry for seeker missiles, marker lights, or the skyray does it imply that the shot does not count as having been fired by the vehicle that carries the seeker missile. In fact, there's indication that it does count as comming from the carrier, in that they go out of their way to specify that it does not count against its limit.

And heads up, the skyray is bs4, so if you consumed a markerlight token, it would be BS5, and has skyfire, so it could do it just fine, only it manages the trick via Pinpoint rather than the seeker missile special rule of markerlights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For what its worth also, here is the previous ruling VIA FAQ.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2940051a_Tau_Empire_v1.2_JANUARY13.pdf

Q: If Seeker Missiles are fired at a Zooming Flyer or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, what To Hit roll do they require? (p31)
A: 6+

So even then, it was need a six for the light, and need a six for the missile.

If you are "implying" then that is not RAW.

Yes I know that I can pick up the markerlight for the skyray.

The simple fact is the seekers rule bypasses the snap firing rule altogether. Codex trumps BRB

If a seeker is fired from a pinned broadside unit it is still resolved at BS5.

thejughead wrote:
If you are "implying" then that is not RAW.

Yes I know that I can pick up the markerlight for the skyray.

The simple fact is the seekers rule bypasses the snap firing rule altogether. Codex trumps BRB

If a seeker is fired from a pinned broadside unit it is still resolved at BS5.

What? Dude, I said that the rule does not imply the shot does not come from the carrying model, I didnt say I implied anything. The rules I quoted are hard cold fact.

And no, the shot counts as comming from the model that carries it, its ballistic skill (and in this case, the BS that the shot is 'resolved' at) make no matter, because it must snap-fire ALL of its shots if it is pinned/shaken/shooting at a flyer.

"its ballistic skill (and in this case, the BS that the shot is 'resolved' at) make no matter, because it must snap-fire ALL of its shots if it is pinned/shaken/shooting at a flyer. "

The models BS is not used to resolve the Seeker missile. This is fact and a rule in the Tau Codex.

 davou wrote:
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

The problem is that this FAQ (from before the Tau codex IIRC) directly contradicts the fact that the BS 1 of a snap shot explicitly CAN be modified, by markerlights. So the FAQ no longer gives an absolute rule.

For what its worth also, here is the previous ruling VIA FAQ.

If anything, the removal of this FAQ suggests that seeker missiles don't work that way anymore and now hit on a 2+.

thejughead wrote:
"its ballistic skill (and in this case, the BS that the shot is 'resolved' at) make no matter, because it must snap-fire ALL of its shots if it is pinned/shaken/shooting at a flyer. "

The models BS is not used to resolve the Seeker missile. This is fact and a rule in the Tau Codex.

A stunned model does not care whether its using its, the seekers, or jesus's BS, because all shots coming from it must be fired as snap shots. But honestly, I'm done with this thread. I'd love for seeker missiles to have all the magic rules that some people here want for them, but that's not how it's worded, or how the game should be played unless we want massive lopsided brokenness.

Its all circles in here now, can we please get a lock?

 davou wrote:

thejughead wrote:
"its ballistic skill (and in this case, the BS that the shot is 'resolved' at) make no matter, because it must snap-fire ALL of its shots if it is pinned/shaken/shooting at a flyer. "

The models BS is not used to resolve the Seeker missile. This is fact and a rule in the Tau Codex.

A stunned model does not care whether its using its, the seekers, or jesus's BS, because all shots coming from it must be fired as snap shots. But honestly, I'm done with this thread. I'd love for seeker missiles to have all the magic rules that some people here want for them, but that's not how it's worded, or how the game should be played unless we want massive lopsided brokenness.

Its all circles in here now, can we please get a lock?

You are arguing your point well, but please dont say that seeker missiles hitting on a 2+ with a quantitative factor makes a "massive lopsided brokenness."

 Peregrine wrote:

 davou wrote:
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

The problem is that this FAQ (from before the Tau codex IIRC) directly contradicts the fact that the BS 1 of a snap shot explicitly CAN be modified, by markerlights. So the FAQ no longer gives an absolute rule.

For what its worth also, here is the previous ruling VIA FAQ.

If anything, the removal of this FAQ suggests that seeker missiles don't work that way anymore and now hit on a 2+.

Peregrine - except Pinpoint *explicitly* states it can raise the BS of the shot; the Markerlight seeker launch rule does NOT say so.

Speciifc overrides general. The general rule states you canot alter snapshot - Pinpoint directly conflicts, so wins. Now, find the EXPLICIT conflict in the Seeker launch rules - that specifies it works on snap shots - or concede that there is no codex conflict

The wording of the rules surrounding flyers and zooming fmc are just absolutely stupid. Then GW goes and compounds the problem by creating just as stupid FAQ entries. However as the RAW is stated, Seeker Missiles with Markerlights are still boned by those flyer/swooping fmc rules and you need the double 6.

The only plus side is the whole argument is that Markerlights can force grounding tests on a swooping fmc and if failed, subsequent shots from other units do not have to deal with Hard to Hit.

Didn't know that r3tarded was censored on here. And know I know and knowing is half the battle!

If Its not resolved as a Snap shot it can not be fired at a FMC (Per Hard to Hit)
''Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as snap shots''.

This is important becuase even in cases where a rule overrides the BS1 of a snap shot, since it is then not resolved as a Snap shot it is not able to hit flyers

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically
when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. (SIC)

Even having the ability to change a Snap shots does not give you the ability to use anything which is not eventually resolved at BS1 against a Zooming flyer or SFMC

Hard to hit is a seperate rule altogether

How is this different from the Devastator signum?
that doesn't allow you to hit flyers with full BS, and it basically is the same thing.
Why would it work on flyers without explicitly saying it does?