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Kangodo wrote:

2. Space Marines have more good transports than Necrons have viable cc-units. So yeah, captains/sergeants with MSS would be horribly overpowered.

The amount of CC units is irrelevant; why would the Captain be more OP with MSS than the Destroyer Lord, who's better in almost every way. You didn't say anything about sergeants being able to buy MSS until now, stop moving the goalposts.

What does the number of transports vs. good melee units have to do with anything?

Kangodo wrote:
1. Blood Angels with a Captain.. hahaha xD

Yeah, you're the one who said Captains were viable, not me. Not sure what's so funny.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

Do you think the lack of Necron-melee, Tau-melee, Ork-shooting or Tyranid-shooting is a result of poorly designing them?
They are intended to be weaker than the shooty (or melee) option because that's how the army works.

I'm glad I'm having a slow day at work because this is just getting funny.

You know that the best ork lists in 6th ed are all about shoota boyz, lootas, and cheap kannons, right? But, you keep going with the idea that orks are bad at shooting. One ork is bad at shooting. 180 orks will shoot you off the table.

Orks *are* bad at shooting, that's why you bring 180 of them! You're relying on the sheer volume of fire that 180 Orks on the table rolls for to win, rather than any single Ork, or even any single squad of Orks, being able to hit the broad side of a Chimera consistently. You're playing to the statistics, not to the strengths of the army's statline (though quantity does have a quality all its own).

There is, however, not a "lack" of Ork shooting at all, which is what the argument was in the first place.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Redbeard and ZebioLizard2, your cogent commentary on this topic is most refreshing. I've always felt the argument that you can't compare points from one codex to another is exceedingly lame. It's the main reason for point values in the first place! It's far more relevant for external balance than any internal balance; why this is so hard to grasp I guess I'll never understand.

Fun.y, I thought points values were there to purchase units and relevant upgrades. From book to book, points values have no relevance. As has been shown, GW has no rubric for calculating points, and they really don't need to. Every army has different priorities and roles for its units. Why is a zoanthrope an elite, yet a Tyranid anti-tank unit? Why do Blood Angels get assault marines as troops? Its how they have set up their roles.

Really?

Let's say we play a game where you play space marines and I play orks & I reduce each model's points in my codex by two thirds. Ork boys are now 2 points, a warboss is base 20 points, etc. You're saying you'd be fine with that because the points from one codex are irrelevant to another??? My dex's internal balance is EXACTLY the same as it was before. Yet now I trounce you with ridiculous ease. Again.

Calm down, genius.

Units from book to book habe different roles, rules, and functions. Ork boyz are immensely different from Space Marines in terms of those areas. Comparing two units with moderately similar roles and complaining that they weren't identical in points is ridiculous. Necrons have a different role for wraiths than Space Wolves have for Thunderwolves. Yes, they are assault units, that's about it.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Calm down, genius.

Units from book to book habe different roles, rules, and functions. Ork boyz are immensely different from Space Marines in terms of those areas. Comparing two units with moderately similar roles and complaining that they weren't identical in points is ridiculous. Necrons have a different role for wraiths than Space Wolves have for Thunderwolves. Yes, they are assault units, that's about it.

Assault units with very similar stats, abilities, and gear. Your metaphor of Ork Boys and Marines only works if the Ork Boys get the 3+ Armor of the Marines and the Marines don't have boltguns.

How about this.

BA assault terminators with TH/SS are 5 points more than the vanilla equivalent. Why?

Its because they can get FnP on top of that delicious 2+/3++. Most AP2 weaponry isn't Str8+, so they'll get FnP against it. The Terminators are paying because of the army they are sitting in.

the same with Space Wolves. Wolf Guard are much more expensive than their equivalents in other codices. Its because they have insane versatility. You can give a Longfang squad another 2 missile launchers. or a grey Hunter squad an assault cannon or combi-weapon, along with a chainfist. Any space wolf unit can get one heck of a toolbox model to aid them in their role. You have to pay for that versatility.


The Wraith doesn't pay as much for his 3++ because he doesn't nearly as much offensive capabilities as the TWC, he can't ID models nor is he all but guaranteed to wreck any vehicle he charges into. Plus he is easily killed by Str8.

 Grey Templar wrote:
How about this.

BA assault terminators with TH/SS are 5 points more than the vanilla equivalent. Why?

Its because they can get FnP on top of that delicious 2+/3++. Most AP2 weaponry isn't Str8+, so they'll get FnP against it. The Terminators are paying because of the army they are sitting in.

No, it's because every book with TH/SS Terminators since Vanilla has had the cost upped. GW probably realized that TH/SS is better than Lightning Claws and changed the price accordingly.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
How about this.

BA assault terminators with TH/SS are 5 points more than the vanilla equivalent. Why?

Its because they can get FnP on top of that delicious 2+/3++. Most AP2 weaponry isn't Str8+, so they'll get FnP against it. The Terminators are paying because of the army they are sitting in.

No, it's because every book with TH/SS Terminators since Vanilla has had the cost upped. GW probably realized that TH/SS is better than Lightning Claws and changed the price accordingly.

And it's not like they retro-cut their books power levels, so C:SM has been with 40 point TH/SS as a result while all others have gone up.

Of course it's just *Context* that it's that way though.