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Maybe the policy over there is diffrent, But at the GW over here we have store checkout, where you can make an order on the GW site (From the in store order point) and have it shipped to your house or the store, and you can pay with cash in the store right there. Which is pretty much what I always do when something isn't in store.

Also keep in mind that it isa universal GW policy that to game there after you had a few demo games you need your own stuff. Rulebooks, models, codexes or you can't game there.

You most likely raised a number of red flags with your staff member.

1) You sound like an independant young bloke, I am going out on a limb here and say you walked over to the place that normally the cases are at, saw they werent there and asked if they were out of stock. More often then not, people your age do this just to show intention to buy something even when they really dont have any. IE explictly ask for things not in stock and then not buy anything.

2) You come in with your own models to game and don't have a rulebook with you, as a 14 year old people that don't know you will assume that you don't have a rule book. That your one of those kids who doesn't have that much money and spends it on other stuff rather then your essentials and coasts around loaning store stuff or other peoples. ESPECIALLY if the store is busy in vacation times this behavior needs to be cut down because it sets a bad prescedent. Showing people you need your essentials to game is key for a GW. Because otherwise the entire store will be full of kids gaming with 1 rulebook they share between them. This is nothing more then you falling victim to someone not knowing you personally.

3) You intended to stay in the store for a long time. All the arguments above show why having a young child in a store for a long time is legally frustrating. But having a child around that is not buying anything and does not have all his gaming supplies with him, in short someone who the staff has apprehensions about his intentions hanging around not doing much, as you are not gaming, not painting and not buying anything. You appear stagnant, and are a baecon of the hobby not entertaining you while you are in the store. Idle hands are negative advertising.

4) The staffer tried to sell you some paint because people who paint can always use paint, even with the big painting case that has every colour GW makes, you will always be running low on at least 1 colour that you could buy. But more importantly buying some paint validates you as a customer, this likely is the last step in verifying what your doing in the store. Its not so much a buy something or get out, its a check to see if you are infact intending to be a customer or just loitering.

If i did not know you, and i would have been in the store and witnessed all the above points from the employees perspective. I would have asked you to leave aswell. Because your not contributing to the store. Your not showing fun with the hobby which is always advertizing to the store. Your not buying anything. You don't have all your gaming essentials with you, and your probably having an annoyed look on your face because the staffer broke up your game.

When I worked at one back in 06-07 we had a lot of parents drop off their kids and leave. Heck I had customers come in and hang out and not buy anything. Our rules were once 9pm hit we had to kick them out but I wasn't so much of a prick to do that. I would just be nice and make them wait inside until the parents arrived. Their is a ton of pressure to make quota because if you don't then you have a strong chance of being fired which honestly that's not a bad thing as that job was the worst I ever had and I was in the infantry!

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Just because you patronize a store doesn't entitle you to waste space. I have heard the line "do you know how much money I spend here?!?" as a bartender often enough to know that no customer is actually paying our bills. Did the employee go about it the wrong way? yes he did. But no one is entitled to hang out in any store just because he has nothing better to do.

Did you even bother to read his post before you entered Judgement Mode? He went to the store to buy a case and play a game. The store had no cases in stock, so he proceeded to try and play his game. Upon finding out that the two players were daring to share one main rulebook between them because the OP didn't bring his, the Redshirt summarily cancelled his game. The only reason he was "loitering" is because the moron who works there took a hissy fit that the OP wouldn't spend the money he had for a new case on some other random product.

Hey mods, can we add "entitled" and "entitlement" to the list of filtered words please? So many people have started using them(incorrectly, I might add) as shorthand for "I think you're just whinging so shut up".

A store manager absolutely has the right to throw you out. I spent a few saturdays working for my evil-rich-corporate brother once in Sports Direct, and he would literally walk over to people that looked like chavvy shoplifters and say "get the feth out of my store" for no reason other than he didnt like the look of them.

Whenever they would argue and go "/scruffy chav voice ere feth you man its a free country were doing nowt like! he would say "yes yes, call the police, whatever you like, they will help me throw you out, now feth off or ill have the two large men we hire as security to drag you out"

A store owner absolutely has the right to throw you out for whatever they deem to be necessary, they don't even have to give a reason. Its private property and they always have a big sign up saying "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" for just that reason.

So legally, yes of course they can, though morally it sounds as though you should have been allowed to stay, and the store guy sounds like an absolute penis.

If your version of events is a true one of course, I have never been in GW and felt as though they would do such a thing, and they are always crawling with little bastards who don't seem to be doing anything!

 Prophaniti wrote:
<SNIP>.

You still seem to miss some of the major points. As he stated he was there to buy a case and game. No case fine. He could still game with other MINORS that where in the store. Thus attracting more customers. The store worked only kicked him out not any of the other unattended MINORS. I know one very successful FLGS that lets kids com in all the time. If i still lived in the area I would still be playing there. He does ask for all contact info though in case of an emergency. Granted I am an adult but when I ran tournaments there kids where welcome.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Just because you patronize a store doesn't entitle you to waste space. I have heard the line "do you know how much money I spend here?!?" as a bartender often enough to know that no customer is actually paying our bills. Did the employee go about it the wrong way? yes he did. But no one is entitled to hang out in any store just because he has nothing better to do.

Did you even bother to read his post before you entered Judgement Mode? He went to the store to buy a case and play a game. The store had no cases in stock, so he proceeded to try and play his game. Upon finding out that the two players were daring to share one main rulebook between them because the OP didn't bring his, the Redshirt summarily cancelled his game. The only reason he was "loitering" is because the moron who works there took a hissy fit that the OP wouldn't spend the money he had for a new case on some other random product.

Hey mods, can we add "entitled" and "entitlement" to the list of filtered words please? So many people have started using them(incorrectly, I might add) as shorthand for "I think you're just whinging so shut up".

What actually read the whole post?? or read his replies?? Perish the thought. This is the internet where we can say what we want without reading everything or even thinking things through for that matter.

 warriorpriest wrote:

You still seem to miss some of the major points. As he stated he was there to buy a case and game. No case fine. He could still game with other MINORS that where in the store. Thus attracting more customers. The store worked only kicked him out not any of the other unattended MINORS. I know one very successful FLGS that lets kids com in all the time. If i still lived in the area I would still be playing there. He does ask for all contact info though in case of an emergency. Granted I am an adult but when I ran tournaments there kids where welcome.

Read my last sentence/paragraph

 Prophaniti wrote:

 warriorpriest wrote:

You still seem to miss some of the major points. As he stated he was there to buy a case and game. No case fine. He could still game with other MINORS that where in the store. Thus attracting more customers. The store worked only kicked him out not any of the other unattended MINORS. I know one very successful FLGS that lets kids com in all the time. If i still lived in the area I would still be playing there. He does ask for all contact info though in case of an emergency. Granted I am an adult but when I ran tournaments there kids where welcome.

Read my last sentence/paragraph

I did, but you didn't read his replies. If you was the worker there then you personally would have thrown all the minors out I would assume. But that is not what happened in this case. He was singled out.

 Prophaniti wrote:
I agree 100% with nkelsch

Even if you had an ironclad agreement with my manager that you were allowed in my store and that he would assume full responsibility, he wasn't there, I as the line employee was. Lets assume the very worst and say the young man in question was "touched" in the restroom or accosted in some way. When it comes down to it, whose name is on the police report and the quick to follow civil suit?..The manager who wasn't there or me as a minimum wage line employee who was the store representative on the day in question? I don't care what kind of crazy agreement you had with my boss, I'm not putting myself on the line for his promise.

Mayhaps things are different on your side of the pond but here in the US we are loaded with weirdos and creeps as well as people looking to sue at the drop of a hat. If any of you think its alright to have random unsupervised children in your place of business for hours at a time and assume responsibility for them, profit or no, you are foolish at best. It's easy to make these wild acceptances as fellow customers but when it's YOUR livelihood on the line and your business at risk it requires a lot more forethought.

Again, was the guy a moron for saying "buy this product and stay, or nothing and leave"?;probably, but I think they are crazed for allowing groups of children in at all with no parental dialogue or contact. If an underage child came into my store for league, to shop, or whatever, he was escorted by a parent that let us know his child was there for league and would be there to pick up said child at a predetermined time and a contact number was left if there was any issue. If anyone had an issue with that it was a simple matter to say "I'm sorry, but I'm uncomfortable with that and we will need you to stay with your child". If the person had an issue with that, was a possible sale lost?..perhaps...but I'd rather a child be safe and in the custody of his parents than a possible risk for my business I need to put food on the table for my family.

Again...I fully realize that that isnt the issue the OP had, but its the issue I have. I fully feel the situation would be different if the OP had been an adult rather than a child, but since he wasn't I feel the other factor enters about why he shouldn't be allowed to stay.

I'm with you on the understanding that I would not be your problem. But I'm just saying if this where the case, I wouldn't be in the hobby. I can't have mummy and daddy hold my hand until I am 18 because I want to play with toy soldiers, that's unrealistic. GW is (arguably) targeted it at people my age, either younger or older, but we can all agree its not targeted at adults. Or at least its not anymore. With that in mind it is unreasonable for people to assume minors would always have a parent with them otherwise this WOULD be in there policy. At what age would you stop this being a problem, if I was 17, still legally a minor, would you still say I need a parent? At any rate, this isn't about me being a Minor, its them kicking me out because I wouldn't buy something. And even if that IS perfectly within the Law, It sure as heck isn't good customer service or the friendly environment I was used to from GamesWorkShop, and that is what im going to take up with the manager.

@ Nick I'm not sure what your implying with 1. I did indeed come there to buy the case, why would you assume otherwise? For 2 I explained to him why I didn't have it in a perfectly reasonable way, the way he responded it was 'Should of brought a bigger case', the Irony was of course lost on him. I had both my codexes and a sizeable army, if he didn't think I really had a rule book he could of asked the other regular I was trying to play a game with. It was not busy at all, it was infact almost a ghost town. This is nothing more then him not taking the time to try learn my personality or listning to others vouch for me. For 3 I guess your right, I did wake up early, take the early bus, and buy, make, paint and take my army in with the intension of playing a game for a sizable amount of time. What would be the problem with this other then sharing a friends rule book? If Idle hands where what he was worried about, he would of let me carry on my game with my nicely painted models to continue advertising the game. He didn't try to sell me some paint, he tried to bully me into buying paint. The Words where 'Buy some paint or you'll have to leave'. Why should I HAVE to buy something I don't need, and its defiantly bad customer service to chuck a loyal customer out for not buying something straight away. And for the record, while an annoyed look would be completely valid in my eyes, I took precautions to make myself look cold and indifferent when he started threatening me with the police...

I understand that you wouldn't be in the hobby if your parents had to be with you, but I have bad news..thems the breaks for being a minor. As a minor you are not promised everything an adult has access to. It's just how life works and unfortunately a few bad apples spoiled it for those that are probably good people. Again, I'd rather lose a sale than risk my business if something were to happen to you.

Do i think he handled it poorly?..yes, of course I do. But as a business owner I would have booted you out too. You just aren't worth the risk. Him having poor business sense I think is in agreement by every poster here for the most part...but I'd have still kicked you out as well as any other unsupervised children. And yes, even at 17 you are a liability, even if you are the model of perfect behavior. The issue isn't so much what YOU would do or how you would behave, it's more how someone else might treat you or do something to you. As the rep of the store he is essentially "responsible" for you should anything happen. If an adult hits you, touches you, or even another youth, he is at risk.

But the hobby is aimed at Teenagers my age, how can you say that the very people the game is aimed at, usually wont be able to play? That's worse business sense then GW's usual Gak.

I reject the premise that stores which sell stuff focused for children somehow are expected to provide de facto child supervision for underage minors.

Kids don't get to toy stores unsupervised. They don't get to go to McDonalds and play in the ball pit unsupervised. They don't get to see PG or G movies unsupervised. They don't get to go to 'play' places unsupervised.

The closest you get is Chuk E. Cheeses which allows you to check your kid into a 'contained' area so you know your kid won't escape or be taken from the premises without your authorization. And even then, they expect you to stay on the premises. You can sit at the table while the kid runs around like crazy and a staff member will prevent them from leaving without adult authorization. That doesn't replace your duty to watch your children, but in a place where children may be all over the place, you can at least make sure they are not abducted.

So why is there an expectation that FLGS need to take custody of children for extended periods, supervise, protect and make sure they are safe simply because they sell items which children may like?

"wait in a busy town with hundreds of people walking past with no supervision ( I wonder if he understands abduction)"

It was this sentence that got me most of all...Why is it his responsibility? It's not his job to be your guardian..it's your parents. Why weren't your parents worried about that same sentence you just wrote? It's his job to work his store and sell product for his minimum wage. And they aren't saying kids can't play..not at all. But they expect children to have parents with them or at least to be involved in some way.



How can people keep saying the hobby is aimed at children at the prices they charge?...Unless kids jobs are paying a lot more than they used to..

 Prophaniti wrote:
"wait in a busy town with hundreds of people walking past with no supervision ( I wonder if he understands abduction)"

It was this sentence that got me most of all...Why is it his responsibility? It's not his job to be your guardian..it's your parents. Why weren't your parents worried about that same sentence you just wrote? It's his job to work his store and sell product for his minimum wage. And they aren't saying kids can't play..not at all. But they expect children to have parents with them or at least to be involved in some way.



How can people keep saying the hobby is aimed at children at the prices they charge?...Unless kids jobs are paying a lot more than they used to..

I agree about the abduction part. However again you seem to miss the fact he was there to buy and play. So he was involved. Just not to the satisfaction of the store worker.



Personally OP I would have asked the store rep to order the case for me. Unless he was unable to do that with you being a minor. I would also see about buying the case online if things do not get resolved in a civil manor with the store manager.

nkelsch wrote:
I reject the premise that stores which sell stuff focused for children somehow are expected to provide de facto child supervision for underage minors.

Kids don't get to toy stores unsupervised. They don't get to go to McDonalds and play in the ball pit unsupervised. They don't get to see PG or G movies unsupervised. They don't get to go to 'play' places unsupervised.

This is funny, because as he is 14 he could go to any PG or G movie he want all by himself and sit in a big dark room where no one working there will be watch over him. Bad choose on that one .

What GW store was it?

I didn't pin responsibility on him, I just found his lack of concern something of note. While his quote 'Not my problem' is a perfectly lawful remark, it doesn't change the fact that that would not encourage me to go back there (Like I have a great choice...) and are not the right way to treat a regular of any age. That's what that sentence was about, not that I was pinning responsibility on the store for my care. I think maybe I should of phrased it better, I'm better at speaking then typing

GW Chester by the way, The New Guy who took over for Adam if you know him.

Reading this story, it seems if he would have let you do some list building perhaps you would have ended up buying something in the end. Anyway, sounds like you ran into an employee that has one foot out the door because of a poor sales record, if I ventured a guess.

The big concern for me is the fact you are 14. Im not sure about how things go in the UK, but I work at a movie theatre in the states, and we get teens that get dropped off her regularly. On occasion, I have to give them the boot from the theatre, but if they are minors, I cannot make them leave the theatre property by themselves. The reasoning is similar to the bar rule (dont let a drunkard leave and drive etc), where if I kick a minor/group of minors out and something horrible happens to them, I become liable because I did not ensure they were safely looked after by their parents or police. It is a bit of a stretch at times, but if you left the store, and were then beaten at the bus stop by some punks, GW would have themselves a lawsuit for medical/damages, as being in a hobby store, practicing said hobby (list building counts to a reasonable person), makes it unreasonable for them to remove you, unless there is a secret GW 15 minute 'buy out or get out' rule.

Overall, very poor customer service and I would bee-line it to the GW website and demand that donkey-caves head. That kind of customer service (you were alone for christ's sake, really, if you were in a huge group maybe I see his point)

Report it to GW, wait two weeks, return and enjoy yourself, or find a new store that wants you to grow the hobby in-store.

nkelsch wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
What are you doing not working at 14? When you turn 14 here, you get a job and work. Playtime and summer are over. Want to be treated like an adult, then go get a job.

Regardless, supervising minors is dangerous and no unqualified person should attempt it or be forced to do it in their line of work. This is both for the child's safety and the adult's protection.

What state do you livwe in when you can get a job at 14? I mean, aside from mowing lawns or some other random odd job type thing. Generally you cant get much until you're 16.

Anyways, I dont see much point in buying anything at a store you cant play at. Take the online discout and let them all fold.

I think it's just this new guy.

The OP sounds a bit like me. I've been going into my local GW fairly regularly for the past 2 years now (I've been in a long time before, but not on a regular basis). I come in on Saturdays for scheduled games, and on game nights and just whenever I can. I pre-order Codices/Army Books from GW, but other than that all I ever buy is the odd pot of paint. I try to hang around for games (and I don't own a copy of any 40k rulebook btw), and if there's no one around, I just hang around, though usually do some painting. However, the staff in my GW are more than happy to let me do this.

It sounds like your old manager was the same sort of thing. I'd have a chat with him and see if he'll have a chat with this new employee. Top tip though: always bring some painting. It actually gives you something to do!

I think it would have been cool if you got kicked out for painting models.

So, OP, did you talk to management? Because you should have, and let us know.


While I personally would absolutely have the same attitude as that guy had - if you're hanging out for 6 hours and not buying anything, you better GTFO - that's also not the Games Workshop business model, in which you should be free to come in and have a game. God, I could not imagine putting up with that nonsense, but that's how they want to do it.

ultraatma wrote:
as being in a hobby store, practicing said hobby (list building counts to a reasonable person), makes it unreasonable for them to remove you, unless there is a secret GW 15 minute 'buy out or get out' rule.

GW stores are NOT a hobby center, hobby store or anything. It's a completely normal retail store like any electronics market, CD store or something.

nkelsch wrote:

Kids don't get to toy stores unsupervised. They don't get to go to McDonalds and play in the ball pit unsupervised. They don't get to see PG or G movies unsupervised. They don't get to go to 'play' places unsupervised.

Do they get to go to their shift at the plant unsupervised though?

I'm pretty sure at 14 I spent most of my summer unsupervised. My older friends could drive, so we'd go see movies and stuff together. Again, what manner of bizarro world do you live in that requires 14 year olds to be under lock and key constantly? Is your lawn in that much danger?

 Sigvatr wrote:
GW stores are NOT a hobby center, hobby store or anything. It's a completely normal retail store like any electronics market, CD store or something.

Someone should let these misinformed fools know that. They're doing it totally wrong, looks like, according to you.

 Sigvatr wrote:

ultraatma wrote:
as being in a hobby store, practicing said hobby (list building counts to a reasonable person), makes it unreasonable for them to remove you, unless there is a secret GW 15 minute 'buy out or get out' rule.

GW stores are NOT a hobby center, hobbsoranything.It's a completely normal retail store like any electronics market, CD store or something.

Unfortunately, while it is a retail store, a reasonable person would call it a hobby store, just as a Barnes and noble would be considered a book store, even though it is a retail store. Your logic is unreasonable and has no bearing on this issue. If you cannot see thep poor treatment of this kid then you should reread his post

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Kids don't get to toy stores unsupervised. They don't get to go to McDonalds and play in the ball pit unsupervised. They don't get to see PG or G movies unsupervised. They don't get to go to 'play' places unsupervised.

Do they get to go to their shift at the plant unsupervised though?

When you have a work permit from the ages 14-16, you are 'supervised' by the place of employment. It is part of the work permit process.

I'm pretty sure at 14 I spent most of my summer unsupervised. My older friends could drive, so we'd go see movies and stuff together. Again, what manner of bizarro world do you live in that requires 14 year olds to be under lock and key constantly? Is your lawn in that much danger?

Most states have laws which either have age definition for unattended minors or only allow unattended minors at home, not in public.

In MD, no children under the age of 8 may be unsupervised. 13 and under can be 'at home' by themselves. Other states have different and some more 'ambiguous' rules like 'not be a danger to themselves or others' and so on which makes it hard.

Now Public venues can have their own rules in regards to unattended minors as the laws and can enforce them as they wish... Pretty much, if you are a minor, in public, you have no rights except when with a guardian. Here is an example from the new your public library:

Library staff are available to assist and support children with their use of Library resources. However, the Library is not responsible for children who are left unattended on Library premises. Unattended children are children of any age who are apparently unaccompanied by a parent, guardian, and/or responsible caregiver in the Library.

Library staff may call the police or other appropriate City agency if a child is left unattended when a Library facility closes or if a child otherwise appears to be at risk.

Pretty much, if they 'feel like it' and deem the child is 'at risk' they can and will call the police, have the child taken into custody and the parents will be answering some questions to Child Protective services.

Here is an article about a MALL:

on Fridays and Saturdays starting at 6 p.m., anyone 17 or under who wasn’t accompanied by a guardian who was at least 21 years old would be kicked out of the mall. It was around this time that other malls around the U.S. likewise banned unaccompanied teens during certain evening hours.

Starting this Friday, the St. Louis Outlet Mall is pushing its parental-escort rule back to 3 p.m. on Fridays and Saturdays. Similarly, the Mall of America expanded its parental-escort policy during the recent holiday shopping season.

Read more: http://business.time.com/2013/01/24/hey-kid-wheres-your-mom-malls-ratchet-up-restrictions-on-unsupervised-teens/#ixzz2bylIWHZS

You would be surprised how common such policies are and lots of stores have them, and they have total discretion on how to enforce them. If you actually investigate, you would find there are very few places a Minor can legally go unsupervised.

Nkelsch, I don't know about you but as I also live in Maryland, and frequent the malls around here (Arundel Mills, Columbia, etc...) there are groups of minors there constantly.

What you're posting is fine in theory, but doesn't actually happen in practice. Children aged 14 - 17 are not sitting at home and only going out with their parents. That's just not how it is in reality.

That's the only thing I'm going to contribute here, since I don't want to get sucked back in to the drama

To the OP.

A bit of common sense would go a long way in both sides of this coin...

Kids should not hang out for such a long time without supervision... that is an open door to problems.

Store employees should know how to lure people without resorting to these poor scare tactics and grow some maturity. ( any adult worth a braincell would not kick a kid to the streets like this, at least have the decency to ask the kid to call his parents).

If the facts are as the OP states then sorry to say but the adults around you are kind of letting you down.

My sincere advice to you is that if adults are not present you should surround yourself with a bunch of buddies for safety sake, also dont expect that a stranger in any store will help you out. Sad but true we live in a selfish society.

But not all is bad from this, you have learned a precious lesson, plan ahead and avoid to put yourself in the hands of people you do not know.

As for the Posters saying " get a job" or " I would also kick you out "... Just ignore them.

Nice post, Navarro... cheers! And agreed on all counts (particularly about the common sense solution to this situation, and good lessons to be learned on both sides).

 NAVARRO wrote:

stuff

Agreed.

Strange how the people saying those things and talking about child protection are not from the UK. Just to clarify a few things:

Getting a job under 16 in the UK is not normal.

UK GWs still often have hobby and gaming areas.

Business staff in the UK would only have very limited responsibility for kids in the store, the same as adults.

I don't know what happend but it sounds like the guy was rather rude, but then having been in a GW last week I think some of the staff have the paitiants of saints in school holidays. However that's part of the job.