Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Those are all good points, and the only response I have is that presumably a better writer/storyteller than I would be doing this, who could make it work. Also that I'd be just as happy/happier with this as Black Library novels, where it doesn't matter who they piss off, nobody's going to stop playing the game over a novel not connected to the game itself.

The thing about the Imperium being at a disadvantage is, it's already at one.

Heck, it's already doomed, if the Imperium maintains the status quo. It's just a matter of when.

Chaos spilling forward is going to happen sooner or later, I mean, isn't there fluff about more psykers, and thus more daemonic invasions, popping up around the galaxy at an increasing rate?

Then of course the Crons are eventually going to awake en masse.

And the Nids, of course they've got their SuperMega Hive Fleet rolling in sometime within the next 100 years or so.

And then there's possibly the thing chasing the Tyranids, which knowing the Imperium's luck is not friendly.

And that's dependent on the Golden Throne working long enough for all that to happen.

Barring a bunch of Primarchs coming back, or the Emperor dying and then reviving, the Imperium is already at a huge disadvantage, it's just a matter of how long it takes for those disadvantages to go from speculative and anticipated to real tactical and strategic disadvantages.

What this means, IMO, is that if they want to advance the clock a bit and make things even WORSE for the Imperium, that's fine, since it's going to get worse sooner or later anyway.

My DIY chapter, btw, will still be chilling on the Eastern Fringe sipping pina coladas while punching Orks and Tau.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Those are all good points, and the only response I have is that presumably a better writer/storyteller than I would be doing this, who could make it work. Also that I'd be just as happy/happier with this as Black Library novels, where it doesn't matter who they piss off, nobody's going to stop playing the game over a novel not connected to the game itself.

I I like the idea of BL novels doing that That way we could always argue if we accept it as true or not, while still reading the general direction they would move in. They could finally anwser so many questions in a way that isnt binding and could still be altered.
Also if you enjoy reading fan-fiction, LordLucan's 50k and 60k fluff is very good and enjoyable for story advancement. http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51806&page=1 (50K: The Shape of the Nightmare to come) and http://www.thebolthole.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=231&sid=ced58eb75c8ae357d11da12f40ea8369 (60K: The Age of Dusk).

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Those are all good points, and the only response I have is that presumably a better writer/storyteller than I would be doing this, who could make it work. Also that I'd be just as happy/happier with this as Black Library novels, where it doesn't matter who they piss off, nobody's going to stop playing the game over a novel not connected to the game itself.

I I like the idea of BL novels doing that That way we could always argue if we accept it as true or not, while still reading the general direction they would move in. They could finally anwser so many questions in a way that isnt binding and could still be altered.
Also if you enjoy reading fan-fiction, LordLucan's 50k and 60k fluff is very good and enjoyable for story advancement. http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51806&page=1 (50K: The Shape of the Nightmare to come) and http://www.thebolthole.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=231&sid=ced58eb75c8ae357d11da12f40ea8369 (60K: The Age of Dusk).

Cool, I'll check those out! I remember a while ago reading Rise of the Tau, which was kind of hacky at parts but overall pretty fun. I never got to the end though, at some point there wasn't any more on Bolter and Chainsword and I couldn't find the remainder out there anywhere.

DogofWar1 wrote:
The thing about the Imperium being at a disadvantage is, it's already at one.

Heck, it's already doomed, if the Imperium maintains the status quo. It's just a matter of when.

Chaos spilling forward is going to happen sooner or later, I mean, isn't there fluff about more psykers, and thus more daemonic invasions, popping up around the galaxy at an increasing rate?

Then of course the Crons are eventually going to awake en masse.

And the Nids, of course they've got their SuperMega Hive Fleet rolling in sometime within the next 100 years or so.

And then there's possibly the thing chasing the Tyranids, which knowing the Imperium's luck is not friendly.

And that's dependent on the Golden Throne working long enough for all that to happen.

Barring a bunch of Primarchs coming back, or the Emperor dying and then reviving, the Imperium is already at a huge disadvantage, it's just a matter of how long it takes for those disadvantages to go from speculative and anticipated to real tactical and strategic disadvantages.

What this means, IMO, is that if they want to advance the clock a bit and make things even WORSE for the Imperium, that's fine, since it's going to get worse sooner or later anyway.

My DIY chapter, btw, will still be chilling on the Eastern Fringe sipping pina coladas while punching Orks and Tau.

The point is that they cant do it in any significant way. The Imperium is backed up against a wall, its do or die. For now the Imperium is still holding on and expanding slowly (like a snail). All the doom and gloom is highly overrated so far. The Imperium is still the mightiest force around holding of the Orks, Chaos and the Tyranids to an extent, doing so for over 10K years in the first two cases. Letting Chaos win the Cadian Gate means the Imperium lost, just look up what Abbadon's plan is for that place. 40K is more at the end of the beginning, now significant threats have emerged that challenge Imperial dominance (Tyranids, Necron). Advancing it further would make it the beginning of the end so to speak, if even the previous managable threats start rampaging about.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

The point is that they cant do it in any significant way. The Imperium is backed up against a wall, its do or die. For now the Imperium is still holding on and expanding slowly (like a snail). All the doom and gloom is highly overrated so far. The Imperium is still the mightiest force around holding of the Orks, Chaos and the Tyranids to an extent, doing so for over 10K years in the first two cases. Letting Chaos win the Cadian Gate means the Imperium lost, just look up what Abbadon's plan is for that place. 40K is more at the end of the beginning, now significant threats have emerged that challenge Imperial dominance (Tyranids, Necron). Advancing it further would make it the beginning of the end so to speak, if even the previous managable threats start rampaging about.

A bunch of fluff keeps referring to the "Time of Ending" and "Wolftime" and all sorts of Ragnarok-ish events happening in the near future, so I would argue we're closer to the beginning of the end than the end of the beginning.

DogofWar1 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

The point is that they cant do it in any significant way. The Imperium is backed up against a wall, its do or die. For now the Imperium is still holding on and expanding slowly (like a snail). All the doom and gloom is highly overrated so far. The Imperium is still the mightiest force around holding of the Orks, Chaos and the Tyranids to an extent, doing so for over 10K years in the first two cases. Letting Chaos win the Cadian Gate means the Imperium lost, just look up what Abbadon's plan is for that place. 40K is more at the end of the beginning, now significant threats have emerged that challenge Imperial dominance (Tyranids, Necron). Advancing it further would make it the beginning of the end so to speak, if even the previous managable threats start rampaging about.

A bunch of fluff keeps referring to the "Time of Ending" and "Wolftime" and all sorts of Ragnarok-ish events happening in the near future, so I would argue we're closer to the beginning of the end than the end of the beginning.

They may refer to it anyway they want, but the have no solid grasp on certain aspects, of which this is one of. ''Time of Ending'', ''Wolftime''? Quite vague if you ask me. They really want me to believe that its right near the apocalypse? Lets check off some points. The Imperium has been fighting the Orks and Chaos for over 10K years, during which they have also suffered massive infighting. The largest Ork Waagh ever also happened during this time (M32). The Imperium is as united as possible, no fake pretenders or Vandires of that scale. They are still fighting off Chaos and the Orks, which havent presented such a large threat as in M32/Horus Heresy, not even with Armageddon/Cadia. The Tyranids and Necron have only been arriving for a couple of centuries, which in the timeframe of 10K years is a drop in the ocean. The Imperium still has the power to press on for millenia to come (depending on the speed of both Necron and Tyranids), sure they might start to struggle, but they will survive at least. Wolftime is far to vague a term, final battle? For who and against which enemy is that? Chaos, Tyranids, Orks or even some whole new threat we havent even heard about?

In light of the vagueness of the terms like ''darkest hour'' and ''time of ending'' is all very nice, but it doesnt mean a thing. Darkest hour? Sure, we have just learned a super race of evil omnom creatures will arrive sometime in the future (no idea when, no tendrils other than vanguard forces and who knows how far they are spread out), its probably the bleakest outlook on the future so far, hence ''darkest hour''. Even if the 13th BC succeeded, which even after the Eye of Terror campaign didnt really happen, they would still need hunderds of years or even more to get to Terra (not even the rest of the Imperium, which is throwing its forces at Terra). In that light the ''Time of Ending'' could just as easily refer to the fact that the time of the Imperium maintaining the status quo for the last 10K years is slowly slipping away, the end of the beginning, which has dominantly been the age of the Imperium of Man for the last 10k years. But now that time is ending, or even better worded would be the ''Time of Ending''.

The Wolftime's got nothing on the Rhana Dandra, I'd trust the Eldar to know how it'll all end over the Wolves any day .

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
The Wolftime's got nothing on the Rhana Dandra, I'd trust the Eldar to know how it'll all end over the Wolves any day .

Seeing what already happened to the Eldar without starting the Rhana Dandra I dont put a lot of faith in the Imperial cries about doom

 -Loki- wrote:
40k isn't a story, it's a setting.

Exactly. The "fluff" is a skeletal framework for battles between cartoon characters.

Besides, why would anyone want the story to move forward? Every story GW tries to tell is awful, lol. And the one time they tried to let the fans dictate the story, there was rampant cheating and people trying to game the system and influence the results.

Ultimately, the fluff is irrelevant. It's a giant universe of thousands upon thousands of worlds. At no point will they run out of places for different colors of Space Marines to fight different kinds of bad guys. And if they do, they have ten thousand years of "history" to talk about places where different colors of Space Marines fought different kinds of bad guys.

Personally, I liked the setting the way it used to be, before they Over-Grimdarked. But it isn't like the changes GW made to the fluff changed the way the game would be played.

I personally do find it a bit frustrating that there's been little to no progression... There's a lot of people saying that progressing the story would ruin the fluff or creativity of the players but I disagree.

I think a fair comparison would be to World of Warcraft. I've been a big fan of the series since WC2, and they've had some MAJOR plot points resolve themselves, and some major characters storylines be resolved, and it hasn't really ended the world, it's not like its all roses now that the lich king is gone ( thought about soon spoilers but eff it, it's been long enough).

The setting is established, people will fight regardless, move the story forward already...

Both yes and no. One, I enjoy the setting letting you go into practically any part of the story and make some sort of a difference. It is satisfying to know there is a world where the armies are still at least slightly balanced. Going too far either chaos, nids, or tyranids will rip apart the galaxy or all three at once crippling the imperium in pretty much ever yway possible. Whilst dramatic and a final stand, it also means that imperium goes from holding the line but crumbling to whelp we are lost time for one last bravado. At the same time, it is irritating that almost nothing significant ever happens. ONe will feel their victories and losses mean nothing when... well... nothing ever happens. A vast pool that is both deep and shallow at the same time with a thousand gaping holes threatening to swallow you up.

You know what I would love? Realtime plot advancement.

A lot of people here are discussing if the plot advances, x occurs, but they seem to be assuming a significant time jump; decades, centuries even. The Imperium, based on its enormity alone, will not fall in a year, a century, or even a millenia. If we were to see a semi-realtime advancement to the plot, done with concurrent events and community involvement (HA!, not likely, but that's another matter entirely), you likely wouldn't see the end of the battle for Cadia alone for years, but we'd have the sense of inkling progression.

Armaggeddon and Cadia in particular need to be put to rest as the "present," and truth be told, even killing major characters wouldn't necessarily break the game. Plenty of settings can advance, and kill loved characters, but that doesn't invalidate the past, especially for something as broad as 40k. People still play 3025 Battletech, Star Wars has advanced a hundred-odd years after the films (though only the first 35 or so are fleshed out), and people play games set in all its timeframes, 40k now has the Horus Heresy as its own side-game, etc.

In fact, if GW were to advance the plot, both forwards and backwards, rather than tying the tabletop game to 1 second to midnight, it could actually open up a lot of room for expansion to armies. You could choose eras which lock or unlock different characters, units, etc. The core stuff would remain basically the same, but how about playing during the Scourging with some Loyalist and Traitor primarchs, and Guard which can take Land Raiders, or 500M42, with the Silent King leading the Necrons, a new generation of Marine and Guard leaders, and even more advanced Tau units?

40k is intended as a setting, but that doesn't mean the setting can't evolve and expand without alienating its playerbase. If people really hate the advancement, they can keep playing in 999M41, and change the course of battles which shaped the future, and at least to themselves or their group, change the course of history. I know I sure love blowing up Yavin 4 with the Death Star when I can, or shooting down Luke in X-Wing.

Technically, the timeline isn't meant to be continued - it'd break the core idea of the franchise: the times when the galaxy is about to end, but not reaching there just yet.

Instead, you can always speak of the galaxy's vast history of heroic sagas and moments of despair.

We know how it began and we know how it will end, everything in between is up to the players - and I think that's great.

TiamatRoar wrote:
What are peoples' opinions on the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign, actually? That thing actually did advance the plot to the point where later editions actually rewinded things a bit. If WH40k had plot advancement, theretically one way to really milk it would be worldwide campaigns like that.

Did GW stop doing such things because it wasn't popular? Because it painted them into a corner? Or simply because it was too much work for what it did and GW is really lazy these days?

IIRC Medusa V was the real killer, GW effectively stopped world wide campaigns and what plot progression 40K had (the year was closer to 900.M41 when I started with the game).

I would prefer if 40K retained a bit of plot progression, if anything it could give better justification for new units like a new STC is discovered and thus new tanks. Otherwise it just feels that 40K is stale and stagnant, which is a shame because I used to enjoy being part of the various online campaigns that used to be run by fans.

Much of the existing background that people take for granted today occurred directly as a result of ongoing timeline progression. It did not spring into its current detailed form ex nihilio but has been an accretion of incremental change over years. Halting progression denies the opportunity for further growth for the sake of an ill defined fear of some disaster, while consigning some factions to a limbo of no background expansion because they do not have 10,000 or more years to play around with. They had as much risk of ruining and destroying 40K back in 2nd edition, yet they didn't when they went ahead with timeline progression and the result is the background is ultimately richer for it.

I agree that advancing the plot would upset players. People keep talking about removing of Tau and having them crushed or having Chaos plow through the imperium, but really if anything like that happens at least some faction of players will be upset. I think that the progression would have to be baby steps and not drastic ones that alter the balance of the universe. Even then I think its better being open as it allows players to make their own endings if they want one.

So to answer the question, no it doesn't bother me.

 R3YNO wrote:
I agree that advancing the plot would upset players. People keep talking about removing of Tau and having them crushed or having Chaos plow through the imperium, but really if anything like that happens at least some faction of players will be upset. I think that the progression would have to be baby steps and not drastic ones that alter the balance of the universe. Even then I think its better being open as it allows players to make their own endings if they want one.

So to answer the question, no it doesn't bother me.

Squats.

That's all I'm saying.

People were bothered by Squats so much that we're still feeling the shockwave today.

And pretty much no one played Squats.

Imagine doing something like that to a faction people played, and not even for sales reasons but 'story progression'.

 stormwell wrote:

 R3YNO wrote:
I agree that advancing the plot would upset players. People keep talking about removing of Tau and having them crushed or having Chaos plow through the imperium, but really if anything like that happens at least some faction of players will be upset. I think that the progression would have to be baby steps and not drastic ones that alter the balance of the universe. Even then I think its better being open as it allows players to make their own endings if they want one.

So to answer the question, no it doesn't bother me.

Squats.

That's all I'm saying.

Squats didn't become popular until after the product line had ended.

Which goes to show that GW doesn't really know its demographics as much as it thinks it does.

Would it possible, that GW could expand into the 42nd Millennium, but still keep an overall stagnation to the 40K setting. With the leap into the 42nd Millennium, it would give an increased time-frame to work in, but no significant events would change.

For my part, all I want is for GW to progress the little events - not the major ones. If, hypothetically, 40K moves into the 42nd Millenium, then GW could advance certain plots (speaking just as a Salamanders fan) such as finding another of Vulkan's relics. Or, it could be other little events such as the beginnings of a new Waaagh (Albeit, not a one on the scale of Armageddon), or the discovery of a new STC or planetary system. Just little tidbits, to add a bit more flavour, but not spoil the careful balance that makes 40K so engaging.

 stormwell wrote:


IIRC Medusa V was the real killer, GW effectively stopped world wide campaigns and what plot progression 40K had (the year was closer to 900.M41 when I started with the game).

I would prefer if 40K retained a bit of plot progression, if anything it could give better justification for new units like a new STC is discovered and thus new tanks. Otherwise it just feels that 40K is stale and stagnant, which is a shame because I used to enjoy being part of the various online campaigns that used to be run by fans.

Did something really go wrong with that campaign that caused GW to stop advancing the plot that you might know of or be able to guess? The Medua campaign did take place in the future, but wasn't particularly plot relevant to anything. Sad that GW stopped advancing the plot after that for... no real reason, really. Maybe they just didn't like the costs and logistics of doing world wide campaigns and, once they stopped doing those, stopped doing the plot as well (because they aren't willing to advance the plot without a world wide campaign, which they aren't willing to pay for)