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 fuusa wrote:
No supposition, just RAW.

P124, arriving from reserve, para 5.
"... picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving onto the table as described below.
Para 6.
"Models that are arriving by deep strike or outflank deploy using their special rules."

P36, arriving by deep strike para 1.
"... then deploy them as follows."
3rd bullet.
"Models deploying via deep strike."

There may be more, but I think the point is made.

So we can see here that arriving from reserve is deploying.

So what does this mean for the deepstriking rules?

1) Is it illegal to place your deep striking model on top of another unit?

2) Is it legal for me to choose to place a misplaced unit over a another unit to cause a mishap?

I'll wait to see what people say and how they explain this.

 DarthOvious wrote:


So we can see here that arriving from reserve is deploying.

So what does this mean for the deepstriking rules?

I didn't say that, there are debates to be had about arrives/arriving/arrive/arrived.
You may have multiple units arriving, but be deploying only 1 at any time.

Though I think nutty nutter is wrong (ie, deepstriking is deploying), I believe the reason he asked the question of me, is "when" is a unit deploying or deployed by deepstrike (apologies, if that's wrong).
In other words, the process of deepstrike is deploying, but the unit is not deployed until the end of it.

It would be convinient to be able to say, that you can't be deploying a unit, if it can't be deployed in the location you begin deploying it.
Can't though as far as I know.

If it is possible to place one unit over/on top of (and not in) another, that is cause for concern.
Imagine human (inhuman) pyramids firing over buildings, un-assaultable units towering over others and vehicles giving each other piggy-backs.

 fuusa wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:


So we can see here that arriving from reserve is deploying.

So what does this mean for the deepstriking rules?

I didn't say that, there are debates to be had about arrives/arriving/arrive/arrived.
You may have multiple units arriving, but be deploying only 1 at any time.

OK, can I ask what you mean? Sorry I just got the impression that you were confirming that Deep Striking was indeed deployment. The rest of what I said I was asking questions in regards to how it fits with everything else. Can you aim your deep strike at another unit? Yes or no & why do you think that? Is it possible to cause a mishap with a misplaced unit? Yes or No and what is your reasoning behind it?

I didn't mean to impose anything on you, so I apologise if I did. I just thought that you were confirming deep strike as a deployment and then asked questions in regards to that.

Though I think nutty nutter is wrong (ie, deepstriking is deploying), I believe the reason he asked the question of me, is "when" is a unit deploying or deployed by deepstrike (apologies, if that's wrong).
In other words, the process of deepstrike is deploying, but the unit is not deployed until the end of it.

Ah OK, so despite that deep striking is deployment, it doesn't happen until the end of the process? I am correct here? So does this mean that somebody can choose to place their unit on top or another unit or not when deep striking? Please bear in mind I am asking a question here. I do not want to place words in your mouth or anything.

Thats OK. I asked a question in regards to mishaping a misplaced unit earlier. Someone else had indicated to me that I couldn't do it as this wouldn't be a legal deployment.

It would be convinient to be able to say, that you can't be deploying a unit, if it can't be deployed in the location you begin deploying it.
Can't though as far as I know.

OK

If it is possible to place one unit over/on top of (and not in) another, that is cause for concern.
Imagine human (inhuman) pyramids firing over buildings, un-assaultable units towering over others and vehicles giving each other piggy-backs.

I think the consensus is that if it does land on the position then it is a mishap. Its just being argued that you can choose to place the unit over another unit before scattering. If you roll a hit then its a mishap, if you roll a scatter then scatter the unit.

If deep striking is a deployment, not saying it actually is or isn't, but in the case that it is then what do the deployment rules say about placing models?

 fuusa wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 fuusa wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
[
Interesting, does deep strike itself count as a deployment?

Yes.

please back this up with a page reference and rule to support your claim here as this is your supposition.

Deepstrike is NOT a deployment, nor is the act of placing the model on it's target location part of the movement as it has yet to scatter to its actual start location. once scatter has been resolved it is then in its resting place for determining a mishap.

No supposition, just RAW.

P124, arriving from reserve, para 5.
"... picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving onto the table as described below.
Para 6.
"Models that are arriving by deep strike or outflank deploy using their special rules."

P36, arriving by deep strike para 1.
"... then deploy them as follows."
3rd bullet.
"Models deploying via deep strike."

There may be more, but I think the point is made.

P124 is countered by P7 basic vs advanced, meaning that the restrictions imposed in P124 are ignored.

P36 para one, yes your referring to the method for deployment, this is a whole package of 3 point process, not just bits and bobs of it.

3rd bullet: deploying is the same as deployed, however they cannot be considered deployed until this step and until all 3 steps are complete, as this is the third step and as such would be the first time the SR confirms you are deployed (i.e. after scatter) anything before this point is not deployment which as such is not restricted by the normal rules for it.

you will trigger a mishap after all three steps are complete, not before.

At what point in the basic deploynent rules or even the deepstrike rules are you given permission to deploy ontop of enemy or friendly models? Just curious as it's a permissive rule set.

Also when asked to "place" the model when deepstriking how are models considered terrain for the purposes of wms? I was always under the assumption that of you could not place the lead model then it was not a valid location.

First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model's final position.

A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase.

Heh, good point Bausk. Unless something overrules that second quote (found on Page 10), you can't. You have to place the model on the table and you aren't allowed to have one of your models within 1" of an enemy model except for in close combat.

 cowmonaut wrote:

First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model's final position.

A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase.

Heh, good point Bausk. Unless something overrules that second quote (found on Page 10), you can't. You have to place the model on the table and you aren't allowed to have one of your models within 1" of an enemy model except for in close combat.

DS placement and the subsequent scatter is not movement. Once the pod lands then it counts as having moved.

Which doesn't change my question Reaper. Where in the deployment or deepstrike rules are you given permission to place the model somewhere it can't physucally be placed? Specifically on friendly or enemy models.

 Bausk wrote:
Which doesn't change my question Reaper. Where in the deployment or deepstrike rules are you given permission to place the model somewhere it can't physucally be placed? Specifically on friendly or enemy models.

In the rules that say place the model anywhere on the table.

So to you anywhere on the table is as broad and specific as you need? So perhaps the gaming table has a lip that isn't apart of the gaming area. I suppose that lip would be fair game as well as it is somewhere on the table. perhaps you're playing on the floor, does this mean we can't deepstrike because there is no table?

How about that word there in that rule 'place'. Does pointing your finger at a location and saying there in that unit count as placing a model? Can you phyically place a model on another model? For that instance can you even place a model on another models base?

As models are clearly not the table or terrain are you placing your model on the table and if you are, by some great stretch of imagination, how can you justify using wms which clearly states it applys to terrain?

Cowmonaut - again, read your quote carefully. note it says you cannot "MOVE within...", not "PLACE within...". Placing here is not equal to movement; page 10 does not apply

Bausk - "Can you" place the model on top of another model? Yes, I can. Is it a good idea? Well it might be an unpopular move with the opponent, depending on the models involved, but that does not make it impossible.

"anywhere on the table", with table already defined as the gaming area earlier in the book (to shoot down your strawman argument), is sufficiently clear permission to do exactly that - place it anywhere

Find the restriction. Page and para

 nutty_nutter wrote:
P124 is countered by P7 basic vs advanced, meaning that the restrictions imposed in P124 are ignored.

No, page 124 tells you that you must deploy reserves and includes deep strikers. It is relevant, just not complete in this case.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
P36 para one, yes your referring to the method for deployment, this is a whole package of 3 point process, not just bits and bobs of it.

Yes and it proves (again) that deep strike is a method of deployment.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
3rd bullet: deploying is the same as deployed, however they cannot be considered deployed until this step and until all 3 steps are complete, as this is the third step and as such would be the first time the SR confirms you are deployed (i.e. after scatter) anything before this point is not deployment which as such is not restricted by the normal rules for it.

Please read the rules again.
A unit is not considered deployed after scatter.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
you will trigger a mishap after all three steps are complete, not before.

Assumed arrival from reserves.

Example.
I have a unit of 5 models that I am now deploying (but have not yet deployed the unit), in that I am in the (3-point) process (though I would include a 4th, possibly, that of rolling for reserves).

I place 1 model and roll for scatter (2 stages complete).
My first model ends up in a crowded spot, surrounded by models that only it can be placed in.
At this point, am I deploying the unit, or has it been deployed?
I am still deploying the unit.

When I go to place my other 4 models, I can't.
The last stage, that of placing the models in the unit, cannot be completed.
This will trigger a mishap roll, while I was deploying, not after I had deployed.

 cowmonaut wrote:

First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model's final position.

A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase.

Heh, good point Bausk. Unless something overrules that second quote (found on Page 10), you can't. You have to place the model on the table and you aren't allowed to have one of your models within 1" of an enemy model except for in close combat.

The problem with that, is its preventing movement, not placing.
The placed model cannot be said to have moved, in rules terms, despite travelling from your case to the table.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Which doesn't change my question Reaper. Where in the deployment or deepstrike rules are you given permission to place the model somewhere it can't physucally be placed? Specifically on friendly or enemy models.

In the rules that say place the model anywhere on the table.

Deepstrike placement is circumstantial, proving that rule can be superceded (again).

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Cowmonaut - again, read your quote carefully. note it says you cannot "MOVE within...", not "PLACE within...". Placing here is not equal to movement; page 10 does not apply

Bausk - "Can you" place the model on top of another model? Yes, I can. Is it a good idea? Well it might be an unpopular move with the opponent, depending on the models involved, but that does not make it impossible.

"anywhere on the table", with table already defined as the gaming area earlier in the book (to shoot down your strawman argument), is sufficiently clear permission to do exactly that - place it anywhere

Find the restriction. Page and para

As I said earlier, when I challenged this, I have two instances in mind.
Permission to place is limited (again and again).

Then state them, rather than dancing around the subject.

Yay Nos isn't ignoring me anymore. lol

So where is the citation for being able to place or even deploy on another model? Can't seem to find one in my brb.

Oh and it wasn't Strawman, it was sarcasm and a prod to actually get someone to answer my question.

"place anywhere"

Are you placing a restriction on the "anywhere"? If so please state where this restriction can be found.

If you still claim there is a restriction then I will ask you where the specific permission to place the DS within a 7" by 4" by 12" tall forest is, given you are restricting "anywhere" with no rules support.

Lmao it like the page two argument all over again.

Anywhere on the table Nos and you have to actually physically place the model. If you didn't have to place the model physically on the table it would say you can point to a location and say "there".

So for arguments sake lets say that's a legal placement, as the initial model is on or within 1" of an enemy model the unit mishaps before scattering or what?

 Bausk wrote:
Lmao it like the page two argument all over again.

What, where you were asked to provide some rules, and failed?

Bausk wrote:Anywhere on the table Nos and you have to actually physically place the model.

Already covered. Try reading just a little furtyher up. It is indeed entirely possible for me to place the model on top of one of your models. Whether it is advisable to or not is another question, but not one the rules care about. So you're happy that I place my DS Mechanicus Titan Carrier (100% metal!) on top of your finecast figures? After all, you are wanting to play strict rules....

Bausk wrote:If you didn't have to place the model physically on the table it would say you can point to a location and say "there".

Yawn. Already covered. Seriously, you do yourself no favours when you have clearly not bothered to read others posts.

Bausk wrote:So for arguments sake lets say that's a legal placement, as the initial model is on or within 1" of an enemy model the unit mishaps before scattering or what?

No, because the rules for DS state you determine mishap after determining the [b]final[b] positionof the unit, not where the unit would like to turn up (remember initial placement is not actually placing the "unit", but where conceptually you want the unit to arrive- there is, at that point, no unit there, it is just a marker)

All of these have been covered before - perhaps you could refresh your memory of the thread a little before positng again?

The deep strike special makes no mention of the initial placement needing to be legal or not
"First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive..." pg36 BRB and scatter and so on.

It not until the Seep Strike Mishaps section that placement becomes an issue.

My take on it would be that you can aim for the squad but if you don't scatter fair enough away you mishap.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"place anywhere"

Well to be precise its "Anywhere on the table"

Are you placing a restriction on the "anywhere"? If so please state where this restriction can be found.

Yes I am placing a restriction on it. For instance you are not placing your drop pod in my bath tub.

I know, I'm sorry. I couldn't help myself with this one and I knew exactly what you meant but I just like being a goof sometimes.

ok ... let me get this right .... you want to argue that you have the ability to place a model anywhere, and this includes on top an enemy model.

If this is the tactic someone wants to take then if they mishap and were to be displaced could I then place them in an exact same manner causing another mishap and another roll on the DS mishap table?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then state them, rather than dancing around the subject.

Say please.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"place anywhere"

Are you placing a restriction on the "anywhere"? If so please state where this restriction can be found.

I can place my deep striking model anywhere on the table without restriction then?
Just to confirm, that is what you are saying, isn't it???
All I need is one example where this is not possible and you will be proved wrong.

So, I place my model on the top floor of a ruin.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
ok ... let me get this right .... you want to argue that you have the ability to place a model anywhere, and this includes on top an enemy model.

If this is the tactic someone wants to take then if they mishap and were to be displaced could I then place them in an exact same manner causing another mishap and another roll on the DS mishap table?

I already asked this question myself.

RAW I don't give a monkey's. The rule says you need to place the model and there is no way in hell I am letting someone place their models on top of mine and breaking them. The minute they try that is the minute I stop the game and tell them to get lost.

 fuusa wrote:
So, I place my model on the top floor of a ruin.

It's like a specific exception doesn't prove the statement incorrect or something.
Yes, there are limitations that are specifically pointed out. Have you found one that forbids placing on top of another model yet, or are you just trolling?

rigeld2 wrote:

 fuusa wrote:
So, I place my model on the top floor of a ruin.

It's like a specific exception doesn't prove the statement incorrect or something.

So, in your words, what we actually have, in the RAW of the rulebook, is a specific exception to the "anywhere" argument?
Well done, you are right.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, there are limitations that are specifically pointed out.

Thankyou, so Nos is wrong again.

rigeld2 wrote:
Have you found one that forbids placing on top of another model yet, or are you just trolling?

So, in your mind, I must be doing one or the other?
Either I have found that rule, or I'm trolling.

So, that means that you are wrong yet again, as I have not found a rule to do this, I don't know that such a rule exists.
What I have been doing, is pointing out errors in the arguments being used (by both sides).
You see that as trolling then?

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, there are limitations that are specifically pointed out.

Thankyou, so Nos is wrong again.

No, he's not.

rigeld2 wrote:
Have you found one that forbids placing on top of another model yet, or are you just trolling?

So, in your mind, I must be doing one or the other?
Either I have found that rule, or I'm trolling.

So, that means that you are wrong yet again, as I have not found a rule to do this, I don't know that such a rule exists.
What I have been doing, is pointing out errors in the arguments being used (by both sides).
You see that as trolling then?

It's not an error. At all. Yes, there are specific exceptions to a rule - that does not mean the statement is invalid. In fact it supports the statement in that you must have a specific exception.
The rule is that all models move 6". I can point to that rule. The statement is not correct. The fact that specific models have allowance to move more does not disprove the statement that all models move 6".

If I recall correctly I cited many rules that were relevant to the previous discussion, none of which you addressed. Page two was your flimsy excuse to cover all arguments, never disputed page two only it's relevance to the discussion.

You can try to place your model on top of mine physically though I doubt it would end well for the limbs you use to attempt it.

And no it was not covered, it was hand waved with WMS which only applies to terrain. Last time I checked models were not terrain.

Also last time I checked the initial model was apart of the unit that intended to deepstrike. What are the mishap rules in regards to models being placed on or within an inch of enemy models again?

You know, I remember exactly how pointless and circular this argument was in the previous edition....

rigeld2 wrote:

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, there are limitations that are specifically pointed out.

Thankyou, so Nos is wrong again.

No, he's not.

He said that a model deep striking has the permission to be placed anywhere on the table.
Is that true or not?
I have come up with a situation where that cannot happen.

Can I place my deep striking model on the top level of a ruin???

If you say yes, you are ignoring/breaking RAW.
If you say no, then there must be at least somewhere encompassed by anywhere, where this is not possible.

So, I'll ask you again ...
Can I place my deep striking model on the top level of a ruin???
Yes or no?

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, there are limitations that are specifically pointed out.

Thankyou, so Nos is wrong again.

No, he's not.

He said that a model deep striking has the permission to be placed anywhere on the table.
Is that true or not?
I have come up with a situation where that cannot happen.

Can I place my deep striking model on the top level of a ruin???

If you say yes, you are ignoring/breaking RAW.
If you say no, then there must be at least somewhere encompassed by anywhere, where this is not possible.

So, I'll ask you again ...
Can I place my deep striking model on the top level of a ruin???
Yes or no?

When discussing rules every absolute statement must be assumed to also include the words "unless stated otherwise". Because typing that out every time gets tiring and redundant.
Your attempt to enforce that statement just to prove nos wrong smacks less of trying to enforce accuracy and more of just wanting to poke nos.

rigeld2 wrote:
When discussing rules every absolute statement must be assumed to also include the words "unless stated otherwise". Because typing that out every time gets tiring and redundant.

Allright, in these terms then.

I can place a model anywhere on the table unless stated otherwise.
Which follows that there may be somewhere (that is part of anywhere) could have an unless stated otherwise.
Deepstrike model on top of ruin = unless stated otherwise.

He was claiming anywhere means anywhere which, by your measure may not be true.
It is not true.
He is wrong, thankyou for your help in proving it.

rigeld2 wrote:
Your attempt to enforce that statement just to prove nos wrong smacks less of trying to enforce accuracy and more of just wanting to poke nos.

Nos was wrong, is telling him so, a device to annoy, or enforcing accuracy?

Model on the ruin.
You still haven't answered the question, yes or no???