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I would imagine even with minimal indoctrination, a decade or so as a mortal child should be a relatively faint memory after a century (or several) of fighting space monsters.

Even that captain of the 4th whose name escapes me, despite having clear memories of his novitiate years, struggles to interact with normal humans.

Contrast Grey Knights, who hold no ties to their past whatsoever. Not even their names.

Omegus, you are thinking of Uriel Ventris.

MarsNZ wrote:
That last part: You're implying Marines Armouries have the equivalent of an IG quartermaster maintaining these suits to a "She'll be right" standard. When in reality the Master of the Forge and his Techmarines are Mechanicum trained and experts at their craft. Artificier armour is most definitely not cobbled together from scavenged parts.

I was talking about the "normal" power armors. There's many marks of armor in 1000+ suits to keep working and there's only so many Techmarines. Some parts are very old and some have design flaws (like the exposed power cables on some chestpieces). You can repair battle damage but not always perfectly, and for older pieces spare parts can be in short supply. Sometimes everything works together flawlessly and sometimes less so. And yet it is a great honor to wear the chestpiece of the late Sergeant Humanshield who saved the Captain. You can barely see where that lascannon shot went in and out, honest.

Where every SoB starts at 100% equipment efficiency a marine squad might have members both above and below that number. They're still marines ofc, but some might have to hold back while others drag the rest down.

I was talking about my interpretation of Sisters shield of Faith. GW seems to function on the 'clap your hands if you believe' mentality. Citizens of Ultramar live a happy life and believe in happy things, so their warp essence is happy.

Orks believe things will work so they do. They generate low level warp fields that get stronger the more orks are around and the more they believe in something.

I see no reason why the AOF wouldn't work the same way. Strong faith and belief interacts with the warp and manifests as their shield. Which works (sometimes) simply because the believe it will.

That kind of stuff happens a lot in the 40K world.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
I was talking about my interpretation of Sisters shield of Faith. GW seems to function on the 'clap your hands if you believe' mentality. Citizens of Ultramar live a happy life and believe in happy things, so their warp essence is happy.

Orks believe things will work so they do. They generate low level warp fields that get stronger the more orks are around and the more they believe in something.

I see no reason why the AOF wouldn't work the same way. Strong faith and belief interacts with the warp and manifests as their shield. Which works (sometimes) simply because the believe it will.

That kind of stuff happens a lot in the 40K world.

I'm also of the opinion that AOF are a form of psychic power and living saints are in effect, demon princes of the Emperor. But that's just me. There's a lot of room for interpretation.

 Melissia wrote:
In general, Space Marines and Sisters of Battle consider themselves equals on the battlefield in the lore at least.

Space Marine biological superiority doesn't really matter too much when a bolter shell explodes inside their chest and takes out both hearts anyway.

Physical superiority matters a lot when the superhuman is actually able to dodge the bolter shell after it was fired.

And that is assuming that the bolt shell will kill or even incapacitate the Marine. Marines are substantially more durable than humans, including the Sisters.

One on one, the Marine will most likely overpower and outskill the Sister in melee, he has the reaction-time to shoot her with his bolter before she shoots him, and he has the swiftness of foot and agility to better avoid being hit. His armour also has superior strength-enhancing qualities, so a guy already stronger than the armoured Sister has another amplifying factor on top of that.

Some Sisters are better than most Marines. Praxedes for example.

But on average?

Get real.

I am not sure Marines are able to dodge bolter shells after they are fired...

Matrix marines? That's a first for me. But one on one an average Marine would beat an average sister 9 times out of 10. I'm not comparing one on one though, I'm comparing armies in cases that they would actually fight. If a chapter is getting purged, the Sisters would roll deep and bring many more sisters and IG. The most a heretic chapter could muster is their 1,000 marines, armor and a few ships. The other case I'd see them fighting is if an AS group is in the way of something some Marines want badly enough to kill for. Blood Ravens, Dark Angels are good candidates for this. In that case, the Marines wouldn't attack unless they thought they could win.

So, what I'm getting at is that Marines vs Sisters is kind of a pointless debate because it depends on so many variables that unless you establish a scenario there's no telling who could do what.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Matrix marines?

Probably from the same publication where Terminators do backflips.

Your assessment is spot on, IMO. SoB and Marines are both among the best equipped and trained forces in the IoM. Neither is going to underestimate the other and bring less than needed if a fight is inevitable. The marines have an undisputed edge in close combat and they might have Land Raiders, Sisters are known for murderous close-range firepower, Exorcist tanks and enough meltaguns to take down anything they can drive up to. No matter who comes out victorious the battle is sure to be a slaughter of epic proportions with the victor only marginally better off than the loser.

What books like to call someone dodging a bullet is actually someone aiming poorly.

It happens all the time in the books, even the more serious ones, much like it does in most action movies where the protagonist's skill/intuition lets him avoid gunshots in close proximities. Think Jason Bourne, except a Marine would be capable of that and then some.

Except no, they wouldn't. If you hear the bang, the bullet is already past you.

 Psienesis wrote:
If you hear the bang, the bullet is already past you.

Or in your chest. In general taking cover seems to be the best way of "dodging" bullets.

 Psienesis wrote:
Except no, they wouldn't. If you hear the bang, the bullet is already past you.

Not in the 40K universe. Eldar dodge bullets all the time, too.

Eldar also do not perceive time in quite the same way as humans do. That tends to give them an advantage.

A human inquisitor can deflect gunfire with their power swords in GW's own Inquisitor game. Just to shut down arguments of "lolBL".

There. I have proved you all wrong.


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 Psienesis wrote:
What books like to call someone dodging a bullet is actually someone aiming poorly.

It doesn't matter how poor the aim is, when you swat bullets out of the air with your sword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Except no, they wouldn't. If you hear the bang, the bullet is already past you.

Marines don't need to hear the bang.

They can see the bullet.

Enhanced reaction-time and perceptions are a boon.

If a powersword can harmlessly deflect bullets, then we can put aside the "omg! BolterZ assplode and a lightsabur cant stop the splosions!" in the SW vs 40K arguments? It either works or it doesn't.

Also, successfully parrying a bullet with a sword is more like getting very lucky with a small amount of cover than it is getting your body out of the way of the bullet's path.

Nothing in the SM range of biometric enhancements or power-armor capabilities indicates that they can detect a supersonic item at slower-than-supersonic speeds and react to it.

 Psienesis wrote:
If a powersword can harmlessly deflect bullets, then we can put aside the "omg! BolterZ assplode and a lightsabur cant stop the splosions!" in the SW vs 40K arguments? It either works or it doesn't.

A. I don't care about the Star Wars debates.

B. This occurs in The First Heretic. Argel Tal blocks three bolt rounds successfully with a power sword, but their detonation knock him off his feet.

Also, successfully parrying a bullet with a sword is more like getting very lucky with a small amount of cover than it is getting your body out of the way of the bullet's path.

Hm.

"DEFLECT SHOT
The character uses his extremely fast reflexes to deflect incoming
fire with a parry from his weapon. A character can only use
deflect shot
when armed with a power weapon or force weapon.
If the character is hit by enemy shooting, he can try to deflect it.
If he can roll under the enemyís To Hit roll on a D100, the shot is
deflected and has no effect. For example, if the opposing player
rolls 56 to hit, a roll of 55 or less will deflect the shot. If the
deflecting character can roll 1/10th or less of the enemyís To Hit
roll, the shot is rebounded straight back at the firer who is hit
instead! To follow the previous example, any Deflect roll of 6 or
less will rebound the shot. A character can attempt to deflect a
number of shooting hits per turn equal to his Speed. A character
cannot deflect a deflected shot!"

Games Workshop agrees.

Nothing in the SM range of biometric enhancements or power-armor capabilities indicates that they can detect a supersonic item at slower-than-supersonic speeds and react to it.

Other than the enhanced perceptions and reflexes.

Enhanced reflexes do not permit a SM to move faster than the speed of sound, sorry.

If dodging bullets is where we draw the realism line, 40K is in trouble.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A human inquisitor can deflect gunfire with their power swords in GW's own Inquisitor game. Just to shut down arguments of "lolBL".

If a human can do that, then a human belonging to the best trained human military force in the Imperium sure would be able to do too. And that´s the Sisters.

Anyway, that´s a bit too much for me.

 Omegus wrote:
Are you really trying to argue that a bunch of nuns on their periods are equal combatants to genetically molded 8+ foot tall superhumans?

Yes. And so does Games Workshop itself.

 Psienesis wrote:
Enhanced reflexes do not permit a SM to move faster than the speed of sound, sorry.

I accept your concession, to be perfectly blunt. You have providing nothing in the way of tangible evidence (Whereas I proved that in GW's own material, much less other works, it is entirely possible), give me a reason for why I am wrong besides "No you're wrong".

It is frankly fething astounding that people can look at ten meter tall flaming Daemons who can permanently corrupt the fabric of reality over an entire planet by existing and are strong enough to rip through tanks like cheese and say "That seems fine" but a superhuman Space Marine having supersonic speeds? "No that's dumb".


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 da001 wrote:

If a human can do that, then a human belonging to the best trained human military force in the Imperium sure would be able to do too. And that´s the Sisters.

Anyway, that´s a bit too much for me.

To be blunt, I'd stake money on Inquisitors being better than the average Sister in combat.

Void, Space Marines are not capable of moving past the speed of sound. That's not a "concession" to state that.

 Melissia wrote:
Void, Space Marines are not capable of moving past the speed of sound.

Can they run faster than it?

I don't know.

Can they react at speeds beyond it?

Yes, I've proven that already with GW's own material, because certain members are so obstinate that anything else doesn't count. I could easily use other works to prove it even further, but I frankly don't need to.

Seriously, what do you base your view on?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 da001 wrote:

If a human can do that, then a human belonging to the best trained human military force in the Imperium sure would be able to do too. And that´s the Sisters.

Anyway, that´s a bit too much for me.

To be blunt, I'd stake money on Inquisitors being better than the average Sister in combat.

I think the average inquisitor is far worse of a warrior than the average, say, Sister Superior.

Not all Inquisitors are fighters. And they don´t train nearly as much time. A Sister or an Astartes are always training or fighting. Inquisitors have lots of different tasks to do. I can think of some examples in the fluff: Inquisitor Eisenhorn is amazed at the combat skill of kasrkins, and Inquisitor Ligeia is a middle aged women with no combat training whatsoever.

Anything you say about Inquisitors regarding martial skill can instantly be applied to Sisters, Comissars, Veterans and Stormtroopers


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And yet, Eisenhorn killed a Space Marine in close combat.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
To be blunt, I'd stake money on Inquisitors being better than the average Sister in combat.

I disagree. All Sisters are trained in combat from early childhood, and continue this regime on a daily basis, only stopping when they're out fighting a war. Meanwhile, some Inquisitors are more inclined to rely on technology or their wits to succeed rather than actual combat ability. One-on-one, some Inquisitors would probably lose to the average Sister, assuming that the Inquisitor wasn't tippinng things in their favour with superior tech/equipment.

TL;DR, all Sisters are trained to a high level of combat ability, not all Inquisitors operate that way.

 da001 wrote:

I think the average inquisitor is far worse of a warrior than the average, say, Sister Superior.

Which is not your average Sister.

Not all Inquisitors are fighters.

Can you name one that isn't?

And they don´t train nearly as much time.

Based on?

A Sister or an Astartes are always training or fighting.

Sisters also pray (So do at least some Astartes, I think), beat the gak out of themselves, and execute civilians.

Inquisitors have lots of different tasks to do. I can think of some examples in the fluff: Inquisitor Eisenhorn is amazed at the combat skill of kasrkins,

I am pretty sure that is not actually the case. Harlon Nayl was, but Eisenhorn? Do not recall.

And Eisenhorn gets far, far more powerful than those Kasrkins later. He'd kill the majority of Sisters OR Marines in single combat.

and Inquisitor Ligeia is a middle aged women with no combat training whatsoever.

Who?

I looked on lexicanum but could not find her.

Anything you say about Inquisitors regarding martial skill can instantly be applied to Sisters, Comissars, Veterans and Stormtroopers

Potentially, yes.

On average? I doubt it.

This also ignores that an inquisitor in the game can't get this ability without the harsh training and sheer kickass to do so.

And yet, Eisenhorn killed a Space Marine in close combat.

Eisenhorn also fought a Daemonhost that blew up a Titan.

Point?

I can see moving your sword in such a way that it interposes itself between you and a bullet before it is fired, or as it is fired. I don't see moving your melee weapon into the path of a bullet that has already been fired.

Of course, if SM can dodge bullets, then I see no reason why a Sister could not do the same, as her faith in the God-Emperor permits her to move with such blinding speed and fury... or because the bullets simply will not dare to touch her, sheltered as she is in the hand of the Emperor.

Take your pick.



Eisenhorn killed one in his younger days by using an artifact of incredible potency and daemonic will to distract one (after having his ass soundly handed to him by said CSM) and then killed some way, way later in life when he's all hopped up on the daemon-juice. Using Eisenhorn, the main protagonist of his own series of BL novels as an example of common Inquisitors is... dodgy, at best.

 Troike wrote:

I disagree. All Sisters are trained in combat from early childhood, and continue this regime on a daily basis, only stopping when they're out fighting a war. Meanwhile, some Inquisitors are more inclined to rely on technology or their wits to succeed rather than actual combat ability. One-on-one, some Inquisitors would probably lose to the average Sister, assuming that the Inquisitor wasn't tippinng things in their favour with superior tech/equipment.

TL;DR, all Sisters are trained to a high level of combat ability, not all Inquisitors operate that way.

Citation? On the whole "Oh some Inquisitors aren't that great at combat". I understand it is all relative, not everyone can be an Eisenhorn or a Ravenor, but all have to be at least competent. Take Carl Thonius for example. Definitely prefers to rely on wits and his technical skills, but is also a nightmare in physical combat and a damn good shot. He is not the best fighter of Ravenor's retinue, but still extremely dangerous in personal combat. He is but an Interrogator, and Ravenor thinks the main thing holding him back in terms of ascending to Inquisitor is his neglect of combat manfighting.

I mean, sure, I guess Karamozov (sp?) off his amazing throne of masculinity would lose to your average Sister, but he's an old ass man who can barely walk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
I can see moving your sword in such a way that it interposes itself between you and a bullet before it is fired, or as it is fired. I don't see moving your melee weapon into the path of a bullet that has already been fired.

Of course, if SM can dodge bullets, then I see no reason why a Sister could not do the same, as her faith in the God-Emperor permits her to move with such blinding speed and fury... or because the bullets simply will not dare to touch her, sheltered as she is in the hand of the Emperor.

Take your pick.

I am pretty okay with that. It's a shame that I have never seen evidence of a Sister doing so, though I would argue higher-ranking martially inclined ones could.

You seem to think I have some dislikes for the Sisters. I don't. I just don't think they are as capable in most situations as a Space Marine. Most things aren't.

Eisenhorn killed one in his younger days by using an artifact of incredible potency and daemonic will to distract one (after having his ass soundly handed to him by said CSM) and then killed some way, way later in life when he's all hopped up on the daemon-juice. Using Eisenhorn, the main protagonist of his own series of BL novels as an example of common Inquisitors is... dodgy, at best.

I'd agree, he is one of the most formidable Inquisitors in history, in all likelihood.