Clefty wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
How is this related to the size of any threats?

I can perhaps buy that Orks were generally larger in 30K, probably because less ONLY WAR meant the really big bad warbosses lived longer (Well... The orks created tons of war, but they can only compensate so much without devolving into mindless anarchy)

But that they'd swell from boy size to Warboss size over the course of a single battle is just plainly implausible, and the Imperium has plenty of things even bigger than Primarchs (Like Knights). Nowhere has it been said that they grow bigger the bigger the foe is. Only that they grow from fighting, as in, grow from fighting at all.

You are free to take what you wish as your headcanon, of course, but at least acknowledge that it is.

You don't speak English very well, let me clear some thing up for you.

Primarch SIZED, isn't talking about how large they are, Primarchs are in a threat class in and of themselves, the enemies in 40k aren't as singularly powerful as they where around the time of the Horus Heresy.

They don't grow from just "fighting" they grow from fighting and WINNING, defeating things stronger than themselves.

The pecking order in Ork Society proves this mutliple times, the Ork that defeats the Nob, becomes the Nob. Ork PERCEPTION is what powers the growth of other Orks, if Orks think it works, it works.

Plain and simple.

Now you can go on ahead and "take what you wish as your headcanon"

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
How is this related to the size of any threats?

I can perhaps buy that Orks were generally larger in 30K, probably because less ONLY WAR meant the really big bad warbosses lived longer (Well... The orks created tons of war, but they can only compensate so much without devolving into mindless anarchy)

But that they'd swell from boy size to Warboss size over the course of a single battle is just plainly implausible, and the Imperium has plenty of things even bigger than Primarchs (Like Knights). Nowhere has it been said that they grow bigger the bigger the foe is. Only that they grow from fighting, as in, grow from fighting at all.

You are free to take what you wish as your headcanon, of course, but at least acknowledge that it is.

You don't speak English very well, let me clear some thing up for you.

Primarch SIZED, isn't talking about how large they are, Primarchs are in a threat class in and of themselves, the enemies in 40k aren't as singularly powerful as they where around the time of the Horus Heresy.

They don't grow from just "fighting" they grow from fighting and WINNING, defeating things stronger than themselves.

The pecking order in Ork Society proves this mutliple times, the Ork that defeats the Nob, becomes the Nob. Ork PERCEPTION is what powers the growth of other Orks, if Orks think it works, it works.

Plain and simple.

Now you can go on ahead and "take what you wish as your headcanon"

When a Boy defeats a Nob, he becomes of Nob. Nob is a rank, however. If he was strong enough to beat the Nob, he probably was roughly the same size anyway. He doesn't magically just pop up to Nob size by defeating one.

Complaining on my English is unnecessary, I think. I am not a native speaker, but surely any errors of mine are not that blatant?

 Clefty wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.

Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:

"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.

No. Just no.

Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.

It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.

On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.

Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".

For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):

Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).

Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.

So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.

See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"

Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.

Sure, I can see where those points are valid, but you can't explain the entirety of the Orkoid phenomena using those same points.

It seems like you are falling into an even more wide spread misnomer that Orks can simply "Choose to Believe in something" It isn't this awe inspiring power that they wield intelligently, it is an instinctual property of their genetics, it isn't a valid point to take the easiest form of explanation of the concept to be its core.

Here is a less known point, When the Orks obtained an Avatar of Khaine, why did the Avatar empower the Orks? When it couldn't empower the Eldar to the same effect?

The effect of the Orks gestalt Psyche was even MORE pronounced, the Avatar began to change into a more Orkish form, the Orks swelled with the power of what they believed to be an aspect of their Gods.

Now, lets presume that all Ork Technology functions on a scientific level, that inherently doesn't detract from the fact that Orks grow larger due to the psychic Gestalt of their race, It doesn't detract from the Perfect reproductive process that allows for an infinite amount of Orks to be spawned, and it can't feasibly explain why Orks grow faster when there are more Orks around them.

Can you give me a citation where an Avatar of Khaine was obtained by the Orks? No offense but that sounds really made up, especially given that you can't exactly loot a daemon/warp-based entity.

Also in the case of Genetor Anzion, I don't know if you noticed but I already mentioned him as an unreliable source. Mainly because the Mechanicum and their substituent parts are already known for being pretty damn ass-backwards when it comes to how technology actually works (what with Machine Spirits being simple AI at best) which only makes them even less reliable as a resource on xenos technology given that they can barely understand theirs to begin with but also because its just a hypothesis and again a non-objective viewpoint.

Again, you're not going to find a legitimate scientific explanation for Orks in this. This is Fantasy in space, you can't explain what the hell or how the hell daemons work nor can you explain how Emperor-class titans don't tip over from how top-heavy they are with their nonsensical massive cathedral designed on top of their heads. Also I don't understand how gestalt psychic resonance would affect the Ork reproduction cycle given that I doubt spores would give off it at any level of resonance as a full grown ork would which would not be present in most cases when spores settle and develop. What exactly are you arguing?

">The humans had betrayed them. He had deluded himself with the belief that it was possible to forge real links with some individuals of that species. He had hoped, to his eternal shame, that the humans would come to the planet and defeat the orks. He had been wrong. Even if he had the power to take this thing from the planet, what would he do except complete the humans’ victory?

>If he waited, the orks would return. They had no choice. They could not resist the siren call even if they were not conscious of it. And the humans had been weakened by this first conflict.

>Before him, he saw the contours of vengeance given physical shape.

>Rising from the chamber floor was a throne. Seated on it was an immense statue. Its form was distorted, vague, incomplete. It was a body without features. The Lileathan world had been abandoned too long, and what had been left behind had lost its essential connection to the eldar. Endlessly consumed by its fury, the shard of Kaela Mensha Khaine now poured energy into another race, one with an inexhaustible hunger for war.

>From this single point, far beneath the surface of Lepidus Prime, wrath called to the orks.

>A being of absolute aggression was on the planet’s threshold. Beneath the surface of the planet, the fragment of a shattered god responded. There were none of the deity’s worshippers at hand to propitiate and redirect the inchoate hunger for war that the shard embodied. But now, near at hand were more of the beings who not only did not resist the shard’s desires, but were eager for its gifts, even if they did not yet know it. They were pure. They were aggression and war and nothing else. They fed the shard with violence, and it repaid them with the capacity for even greater feats of destruction.

>The shard’s essence reached out and caressed the kroozer. It was drawn inside, called by the enormous potential of the creature whose will the ship obeyed. The creature was found, and mindless energy underwent a kind of ecstasy. It poured itself into the orks and, most of all, into a monster whose capacity for violence was infinite.

>In the darkness of its temple, the shard vibrated and glowed. It called to the monster. It fed him and promised more. It promised him power on the same scale as his dreams of rage.

>The moon of ill-omen had not just risen over the planet. It had risen over the galaxy.

>Something entered the ship. Ha’garen felt it at an atavistic level. There was an apprehension of the alien and the divine, but no more. The orks had a much stronger reaction. All of them paused where they stood, and roared. The collective shout drowned out the machines. The roar was triumph, glee, ferocity, power. It was the sound of a species on the path to apotheosis. For a moment, the orks seemed to glow. No light shone from them, but they radiated energy in an almost palpable form. And they grew. That, Ha’garen could tell, was no illusion. Armour strained against expanding chests and swelling limbs. The footsoldiers, the greenskins that the Space Marines saw as little more than cannon fodder, suddenly had the mass and ferocity of elite units. The officers were turning into monsters of war. And the Overfiend...

>Ha’garen was reluctant to apply a word to what the Overfiend was becoming. He did not want to used a word like ‘god’.

>The undertow was hard to resist."

-Stormseer
-Forgemaster
-Shadow-captain

FOUND THE SOURCE. HA. HA. HA. HA. HA. I'M NOT CRAZY, YOU ARE CRAZY.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.

Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:

"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.

No. Just no.

Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.

It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.

On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.

Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".

For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):

Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).

Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.

So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.

See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"

Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.

Sure, I can see where those points are valid, but you can't explain the entirety of the Orkoid phenomena using those same points.

It seems like you are falling into an even more wide spread misnomer that Orks can simply "Choose to Believe in something" It isn't this awe inspiring power that they wield intelligently, it is an instinctual property of their genetics, it isn't a valid point to take the easiest form of explanation of the concept to be its core.

Here is a less known point, When the Orks obtained an Avatar of Khaine, why did the Avatar empower the Orks? When it couldn't empower the Eldar to the same effect?

The effect of the Orks gestalt Psyche was even MORE pronounced, the Avatar began to change into a more Orkish form, the Orks swelled with the power of what they believed to be an aspect of their Gods.

Now, lets presume that all Ork Technology functions on a scientific level, that inherently doesn't detract from the fact that Orks grow larger due to the psychic Gestalt of their race, It doesn't detract from the Perfect reproductive process that allows for an infinite amount of Orks to be spawned, and it can't feasibly explain why Orks grow faster when there are more Orks around them.

Can you give me a citation where an Avatar of Khaine was obtained by the Orks? No offense but that sounds really made up, especially given that you can't exactly loot a daemon/warp-based entity.

Also in the case of Genetor Anzion, I don't know if you noticed but I already mentioned him as an unreliable source. Mainly because the Mechanicum and their substituent parts are already known for being pretty damn ass-backwards when it comes to how technology actually works (what with Machine Spirits being simple AI at best) which only makes them even less reliable as a resource on xenos technology given that they can barely understand theirs to begin with but also because its just a hypothesis and again a non-objective viewpoint.

Again, you're not going to find a legitimate scientific explanation for Orks in this. This is Fantasy in space, you can't explain what the hell or how the hell daemons work nor can you explain how Emperor-class titans don't tip over from how top-heavy they are with their nonsensical massive cathedral designed on top of their heads. Also I don't understand how gestalt psychic resonance would affect the Ork reproduction cycle given that I doubt spores would give off it at any level of resonance as a full grown ork would which would not be present in most cases when spores settle and develop. What exactly are you arguing?

">The humans had betrayed them. He had deluded himself with the belief that it was possible to forge real links with some individuals of that species. He had hoped, to his eternal shame, that the humans would come to the planet and defeat the orks. He had been wrong. Even if he had the power to take this thing from the planet, what would he do except complete the humans’ victory?

>If he waited, the orks would return. They had no choice. They could not resist the siren call even if they were not conscious of it. And the humans had been weakened by this first conflict.

>Before him, he saw the contours of vengeance given physical shape.

>Rising from the chamber floor was a throne. Seated on it was an immense statue. Its form was distorted, vague, incomplete. It was a body without features. The Lileathan world had been abandoned too long, and what had been left behind had lost its essential connection to the eldar. Endlessly consumed by its fury, the shard of Kaela Mensha Khaine now poured energy into another race, one with an inexhaustible hunger for war.

>From this single point, far beneath the surface of Lepidus Prime, wrath called to the orks.

>A being of absolute aggression was on the planet’s threshold. Beneath the surface of the planet, the fragment of a shattered god responded. There were none of the deity’s worshippers at hand to propitiate and redirect the inchoate hunger for war that the shard embodied. But now, near at hand were more of the beings who not only did not resist the shard’s desires, but were eager for its gifts, even if they did not yet know it. They were pure. They were aggression and war and nothing else. They fed the shard with violence, and it repaid them with the capacity for even greater feats of destruction.

>The shard’s essence reached out and caressed the kroozer. It was drawn inside, called by the enormous potential of the creature whose will the ship obeyed. The creature was found, and mindless energy underwent a kind of ecstasy. It poured itself into the orks and, most of all, into a monster whose capacity for violence was infinite.

>In the darkness of its temple, the shard vibrated and glowed. It called to the monster. It fed him and promised more. It promised him power on the same scale as his dreams of rage.

>The moon of ill-omen had not just risen over the planet. It had risen over the galaxy.

>Something entered the ship. Ha’garen felt it at an atavistic level. There was an apprehension of the alien and the divine, but no more. The orks had a much stronger reaction. All of them paused where they stood, and roared. The collective shout drowned out the machines. The roar was triumph, glee, ferocity, power. It was the sound of a species on the path to apotheosis. For a moment, the orks seemed to glow. No light shone from them, but they radiated energy in an almost palpable form. And they grew. That, Ha’garen could tell, was no illusion. Armour strained against expanding chests and swelling limbs. The footsoldiers, the greenskins that the Space Marines saw as little more than cannon fodder, suddenly had the mass and ferocity of elite units. The officers were turning into monsters of war. And the Overfiend...

>Ha’garen was reluctant to apply a word to what the Overfiend was becoming. He did not want to used a word like ‘god’.

>The undertow was hard to resist."

-Stormseer
-Forgemaster
-Shadow-captain

FOUND THE SOURCE. HA. HA. HA. HA. HA. I'M NOT CRAZY, YOU ARE CRAZY.

Whoa, calm down. Jeez, I just wanted to know where your claim originated from. You say you were sorry for being an asshat one moment yet you continue your unnecessary aggressiveness. No need to get all hostile because I didn't believe you initially. The problem with this is that with this example the Avatar of Khaine DOES empower the Eldar as it does the Orks, even in game the aura it gives off makes all Eldar within 12" Fearless. The only reason why the Orks were empowered in this case is because it had not gone through the proper Eldar sacrificial rites of the Young King to properly awaken it, it is because of this that it found the only other outlet it could find; the Orks. The Orks themselves did not activate nor bend it to their will via psychic resonance, the Avatar chose them (not the other way around) and simply bestowed his own rage to them, thus making him a sort of idol for them. Needless to say this was NOT a case of the Ork's belief and subsequent psychic resonance working to empower themselves via the Avatar of Khaine.

And again I'm merely stating the limits of an Ork's psychic resonance, it helps facilitate the functioning of technology to a certain extent but cannot make things a reality simply by virtue of them believing in it beyond reason. At most those are not normal Orks and are Weirdboyz who can fully tap into the psychic wellspring of collective Ork consciousness.